Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO

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- - 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not? (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=438)

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

The Most Controversial Case of Inflated Victories at Sea

By who's authority, yours? First you cannot bring up any hard numbers for German claims, second why bring this up in the first place?

I brought it up because, at this time, Tony Wood seems to have the best available information on the total number of German pilot claims, whether officially sanctioned or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

Isn't this about an early USAAF claim?

Is it? Franek made a remark about inflated claims over water as a general occurrence -- and Reno asked for more information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

Also it isn't about absolute numbers, but about relative ones?

Relative to what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

In your assumed case it is a 4:1 overclaim, are your sure this is really is The Most Controversial Case of Inflated Victories at Sea?

I would say so. One of your forum readers (Don Caldwell) said that the large discrepancy between Luftwaffe claims and RAF losses led to a prolonged controversy between German and British historians. That is a very interesting observation because this mission was a small-scale bombing raid by World War II standards, and yet military aviation writers chose to argue about it for some time.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?

First a 4:1 overclaim is high, but not extraordinarily so, not to make it controversial. Also there is a difference between it being a controversy and it being THE MOST controversial...

Finally you yourself said it was not clear how many kills were finally awarded.

Also the post did start about the first P-47 kill in the ETO, right, not the Battle of the German Bight, which although interesting in its own right would deserve a thread in the right place.

Personally I think that the main reason this subject is brought up is to pose a counterweight to possible allied enthusiastic claiming - a "well they did it too" attitude which IMHO is not conductive when it comes to the original topic.

ABSOLUTE vs RELATIVE

40:10
4:1
8:2
100:25
all 4 claims vs 1 kill

There are certainly many more cases (worse) than 4:1 overclaiming.

I'm trying to keep this thread on track, that does'n't mean I am not allowed a personal opinion :D

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?

Hi,
I have analysed files from Tonny Wood web Site, and I think that Maj. Blakeslee shot down not Fw 190 from JG 1, but Bf 109 G-4 WNr. 19222 from 4./JG 54, and killed Oblt. Siegfried Graf von Matuschka (an Eastern Front ace with 29 kills).
I think that 334th Sqn of the 4th FG clashed with Fw 190s from JG 1:

334th pilots claims as below:
Lt.Col. C.G. Peterson 4th FG 334th Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 17.50: 12 sm. W. Ostend 24000 ft.
2/Lt. Robert A. Boock 4th FG 334th Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 17.50: Ostend 23000 ft.
1/Lt. James A. Clark 4th FG 334th Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 FW 190 17.50: Ostend 16000 ft.
also time of Ofw. Ernst Heesen two claims is 17: 40

334th loss:
Capt. Stanley M. Anderson: KIA 4th FG 334th Sqn. P-47C-5 41-6407 QP-E
Capt. Richard D. McMinn: KIA 4th FG 334th Sqn. P-47C-2 41-6204 QP-M

More interesting, time of Maj. Blakeslee kill is 17:01, so about 40 minutes before !
According Germans Graf von Matuschka was killed over St. Inglevert ( Pas de Calais region, not so far from Knokke - place of Blakeslee victory), in combat with Spitfires. But in "Combats & Casualties RAF & US Fighter Commands 1943 with Annotated Text ISSUE I" file I found no trace about any Spitfire Unit mission. There was only one more air battle. Over Normandy JG 2 clashed with 247 Sqn RAF. F/Sgt. R.R. Campbell (Typhoon Ib: DN 431 ZY-V) was KIA by Ltn. Horst Hannig from 2./JG 2.

Do you have any comments about this ?

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?

Quote:

According Germans Graf von Matuschka was killed over St. Inglevert ( Pas de Calais region, not so far from Knokke - place of Blakeslee victory), in combat with Spitfires.

Hi Gizmo,

I don´t want to annihilate your research work but Saint Inglevert situated S of Calais, France is about 140 km far from Knokke on Belgian-Dutch borderland...

Regards,
Michal

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?

I think that 140km its not so much for ww2 fighter. Also it maybe some error in Blakeslee Victory place location.

Short brief of the victory (from http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/blake/blake.htm)
"As much as Zemke loved the Thunderbolt, Blakeslee hated it, despite being the first American fighter pilot to score a victory while flying the P-47, when he shot down a FW-190 off the coast of France on April 15, 1943. Blakeslee dove on three Focke-Wulfs, catching one which tried to outdive him, only to explode under the combined impacts of 8 50-caliber machine guns 500 feet over Ostend, Belgium. When he was congratulated for proving that the Thunderbolt could out-dive the Focke-Wulf, Blakeslee replied, "By God it ought to dive, it certainly won't climb!"

So, Blakeslee chased enemy from, I think, about 5000-6000m almost to the ground. Maybe he chased enemy from Knokke to St. Inglevert...