Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Great, Robert! Thank You very mutch!

We will find it together, I beleive...

Are there in Web aviable sourse about airwar over Holland? Or some books?

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi,

another I/ZG1 kill is Fokker T-V from BomVA No.855 shot down over North Sea at 06... in the morning. Also Fokker D-XXI No. 2-1 JAVA no.216 was shot down by Bf110 some time earlier (05...) and crashed near to Den Deyl.
On the 11.05.40 Bf110s shot down another T-V from BomVA No.850 and two D-XXI, this time from 2-2 JAVA, no.229 (c/l) and 213.

Regards

Robert

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

There are several books on the air war over Holland, they are however in Dutch, which might pose a problem. Also most of them are out of print and not easy to find.

The author Ab A. Jansen wrote most of the titles you are after.

Fliegerhorst Schiphol, Wespennest Leeuwarden en Sporen aan de Hemel. Also Nooit was het Stil, records much of the fighting over the Netherlands. These (multi volume) books together would give you a pretty good history on the air fighting over my native country.

EDIT: for the fighting prior and during the 1940 invasion, Luchtverdediging and Illusies en Incidenten are a must.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Robert: incredible info, but we dont know dates of I./ZG 1 claims...

But even if this could be found, is it impossible to find earlier notes of unit?

Are there alive veterans of I./ZG 1? Does they hav theyr oun memorybooks?

.... So hard there in West...

Ruy - is it possible to find it & translate it? How can anybody caould purchase even scans or copyes of those books?

With best wishes, Evgenij.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

You reffer only to the published documents and you do not even know when they were filed. Sorry, how can you make a source's critique? Not to mention that Mr Cynk included only a fraction of available documents, simply of practical reasons.
Here you go into a personal attack on Mr Cynk, who cannot defend himself here. As yet nobody has proven him any manipulations, quite contrary to your writing. To be fair, you should add that it was you, who had to write the German part for his book. It is quite a difference if you write that Mr Cynk refused to include German data and if he refused to cooperate with you. The book of Mr Cynk is excellent and very ballanced Polish view of Polish fighter aviation in the Polish Campaign. Nothing less, nothing more.
How about a hit by A.A. resulting in collision?
Everything at a proper time. At the moment I am working on another subject and I canot retract from it. Nonetheless I may assure you I will return to this particular subject as well.
I think you ignore importance of the document, I just cannot find original copy. It is original document filed on 4.09.1939. The question is, when the note about Me 110s was added. As you noted other documents do not mention Me 110s, so it is possible it was a comment added in November 1939. Possibly even earlier, as Rolski certainly could learn about Me 110, even from pilots of Brygada Pościgowa.
Sarcasm that missed the point. It is hard to consider two being many, and it is surprising you are so easily giving faith to accounts written years later!
By whom, when and where? As far as I can decipher, original entry in the diary of the unit did mention credit for Do 17 that was later corrected (by Rolski?) to Ju 87, and the combat report filed just after the combat clearly mention two engined aircraft. I do not care, they might have been He 111s, but I am certain they were not Ju 87s.
I believe you have not heard of sections of three of Me 109s, so what?
Was not the study of Trenel written post-war for USAAF intelligence? Anyway, it is a very simple story of the Polish Campaign, and it cannot be considered definite. I know, I have read it.
If so, the second formation must have been escorted by Me 110 and this exclude participation of LG2's Me 109s - see original Pniak report.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

No, I wrote something about the book and the way the autor works. In fact its me who can not defend against personal attacks Mr. Cynk made in Polish paper Lotnictwo Wojskowe 5/2005. His article is full of lies and manipulations about my person. Such behaviour among airwar historians is scandalous. I never did such things against any autor.


Nobody spoke about a "direct cooperation". It was the "problem" of Polish publishers only to bring the data together. Mr. Cynk disregarded German records completely (sorry, almost completely - he brought in his own interpretation (sic!!) of GQM records). Without German records the book is almost worthless. This is not only my opinion, but of many Polish historians of the "younger generation".
Why? I showed one example above describing 5th Sept. and the mission flown by 112 eskadra. Next example: according to Cynk German records are confirming (?!) the loss of a He 111 of I./KG 152 shot down by 123 eskadra over Warsaw on the 5th. In fact this bomber was shot down 100 km`s away from Warsaw by Polish AA. Another example: 6 He 111`s of II./LG 1 shot down by Polish fighters in the morning of 1th Sept. Pretendendly confirmed by German documents (sic!?). But in fact such documents do not exist. The existing documents are confirming the loss of 1 He 111 + 1 He 111 belly landed (sic!). As well in GQM records, known to Mr. Cynk (sic!).

2 engined aircraft at a height of appr. 2000 m. Pniak saw 7 airplanes from the ground, before he started. After he started there appears nothing more about 2 engined aircraft. But 3 (!!) aircraft "of the same type" attacked him. IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1c-15 (also Cynk "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..., page 242).
From the beginning of the war German Bf 109`s and Bf 110`s flew in sections of 2 (Rotte). This is not a secret. You can find this information in my book Jagdflieger (appendixes, experiences of German units).
As I wrote earlier Polish combat reports are useless regarding particular German aircraft types. German records are not confirming what you would like to have.

Only Pniak`s combat report, right?


It`s only your stubbornness. Even in original Polish documents you will find 3 P.11 only which participated in the earlier combat against Ju 87`s. Por. Pisarek had then to forceland his badly damaged aircraft and exactly this is described in the records of III./StG 2. In the latter combat 13 PZL took part and it is logical that I./LG 2 only then could have claimed 3 of them.

I don`t believe it. You often are referring to Polish documents which in fact do not exist. So I repeat my request: please show me the document confirming the fight of 111 eskadra in the midday of 5th Sept.

Cheers.
Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Robert,

This is what I have at present:

600 Squadron, Manston Attack on Waalhaven airfield:

Blenheim IF L1335. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. S/L J. M. Wells, Cpl B. A. Kidd killed. Sgt. Davis captured. Aircraft BQ*R lost.

Blenheim IF L1401. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O R. W. H. Echlin killed. F/O J. H. C. Rowe captured. Aircraft BQ*K lost.

Blenheim IF L1514. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. F/O C. R Moore, Cpl. L. D. Isaacs killed. Aircraft BQ*W lost.

Blenheim IF L1515. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O M. H. Anderson, LAC H. C. W. Hawkins killed. Aircraft BQ*L lost.

Blenheim IF. Crashlanded in Holland damaged by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O R. C. Haine, P/O M. Kramer unhurt. Aircraft BQ*N lost.
These aircraft were all fitted with IFF, and the prospect of the device falling into enemy hands caused much concern at HQ Fighter Command.

Blenheim IF. Returned damaged by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. F/O T. N. Hayes, Cpl. G. H. Holmes unhurt. Aircraft BQ*O damaged.

604 Squadron, Northolt Escort for No.110 Sqdn to Waalhaven:

Blenheim IF L1517. Forced-landed on beach at Scheveningen 5.30 p.m.

If anyone can add anything to this I would be grateful.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Thnk You very mutch, Peter!!!!

I can add only a little info about combat with Blenheims on 10th May, that I know:

And this:

Is it possible to find names of other I./ZG 1 pilots???? IMHO one of them was Ehle (he had 3 daylight victroryes with I./ZG 1, untill he was transferred in I./NJG 1, and I know only about 2 of his victoryes)

With best wishes, Evgenij.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

When a thread has developed into an argument between two members, I must ask those two members to conduct the argument in private or at least change the tone of said argument so it can continue as a civilized discussion.

Please take note of my second request.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hello all,

On 10 May 40 because of the heavy Ju 52 transport movements near Waalhaven/Rotterdam 600 Squadron detailed 6 Blenheims IF to this target. At low level the airfield was attacked and one Ju 52 of KGr zbV 172 was set on fire.

At the very same time a formation of Ju 52s headed for Waalhaven. These were escorte by Me 110's of 2. and 3./ZG 1. Very heavy dogfights started - only one Blenheim (piloted by F/O Hayes) managed to escape and return. The others were shot down by the Me110's.

The claims were made by:
Oblt Werner Streib 1
Fw Paul Gildner 1
Uffz Müller 2
Oblt Möller 1

Other sources also mention Leutnant Knacke with one claim - he flew in the Schwarm of Streib, Gildner and Müller.

Regards
Rob