Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

hope this is readable. From a P-51 pilot of the 357th fg taking on JG 300 Sturms/Bf 109G's. from M. Williams copied archival reports

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ch-14jan45.jpg

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello guys

Two more experten that I have uncovered. Better late than never!

Miksch: on 1 December 1943 in Bf 109 G-6 "Black 13" (W.Nr. 140 007) in the Nijmegen area.
Hoppe: on 1 December 1943 in Fw 190 A-6 "White 6" (W.Nr. 550 731) over Cambrai/Epinoy by Spitfire fighters.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Eric noted in another forum that IV/JG27, ZG26 and I/JG301 were engaged in the Munich battle on 24 April 1944. I know JG3 was there but don't have a feel for their losses - anybody have a better idea?

Leo - thanks for the update on Hoppe and Miktsch..

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

April 24, 44, III./JG 3 thanks to Jochen Priens exhaustive study(s)

at least 7 Bf 109G-6's lost to aerial combat., 5 to P-51's. Dachau and Neuburg being mentioned.

I./JG 3 lost 6 Bf 109G's, 4 in combat and Neuburg again mentioned along with Lachen-Speyersdorf

E ~ any others guys ?

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Eric - it seems you have fingered the primary opponent of the 355th on the 24th. That spot just north of Munich is where both the 357FS and 354FS got half of their claims, the other half scattered from Regensburg area to east of Munich to S and SE of Munich.

The 358FS spread themselves thin to fill the vacuum to cover the assigned B-17s.

This is one great example of the Luftwaffe being able to find a spot between groups (357 and 355) based on strung out bomber formations and load up the local area with a lot of fighters. The 1st BD lost at least 7 in that area plus 7 that went to Switzerland..

The 357FG and 355FG overlapped the fight area, 357 getting there about 20 minutes earlier.

Thanks again!

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

anything to help Bill. A tough point is the number of single engine JG's that put up fighters in numbers and joined together to form formations to attack the bombers. Single(ing) them out in fighter vs fighter combats is very hard to distinguish.

E ~

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

I know Eric. One of the reasons I looked at all the 355FG encounter reports (and Scout Force) is to piece together the times and locations. I now have that for all the major engagements from 4 October 43 to 20 April 45.

Then thanks to you and Leo and Richard and Tony and others, I have been piece by piece looking at claims on the LW side (for times and locations) and losses when that info is available.

The last piece is the escort track to RV and the bomber track to point of BE. If a 355 encounter took place outside that envelope then I compute a straight line back to Steeple Morden.

Thus far Tony Woods has been prime source but has a lot of time and place 'holes' for claims. Even so it is very useful in tracking B-24 and B-17 claims to help fill in my own knowledge gaps in the planned routes for those missions where I don't have a picture of the Mission Board, as well as the order of battle for the LW as the claims link to the tracks and times.

For example I don't have the Mission Board image for April 19, 1944 but I have the RV point south of Brunswick near Goslar and know the target for the 355 escorted bombers was direct toward Eschwege so the 'track' was almost 190, just East of Gottingen and over Duderstadt.

This info along Leo's info re: Wessling - pretty well links him to Woody based on claim/loss location. Still could be a mismatch but still high probability link. For example, it was very rare for perhaps the 4th FG and 355th to be in a scrap at exactly the same place and time.. but when the place confluence existed then only a 'time' is close to a tie-breaker

Having said that I do not claim certainty!

In the book I will link the pilot to the fight but won't express certainty- as you noted it is just too hard in a highly fluid environment and 'spotty' recollections based on time and place when the adrenaline is flowing at mach 1...

I would love other approaches if they work for you.

Regards,

Bill

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Thought you might want the following summary - there were a lot of separate Staffels in this fight!

April 24

F.O.312. Lieutenant Colonel Dix led a Ramrod at the lead of 357 Squadron to the Munich area from 1106 to 1632. The 355th provided target and withdrawal support to the trailing wings of First Division B-17s bombing Oberpfaffenhofen and Landsberg. Rendezvous was made at 1315 northeast of Augsburg, near Regensburg and turned south toward Munich.

The 357FG was already engaged with ZG26 and their escorts just north of Munich, quickly shooting down 10+ Me 110’s.

At 1320 the 357FS got into a scrap in front of the rest of the 355th, between Augsburg and Regensburg. Lt.Colonel Dix shot down a Fw 190 NE of Augsburg and chased down another very good German pilot in an Me 109 at Regensburg. The pilot was probably JG3 ace Ltn. Franz Schwaiger. Dix hit him hard and watched him in an inverted flat spin into cloud cover before breaking off to take on the Fw 190. Dix only claimed the 109 as a ‘Probable’ but Schwaiger went in just outside Regensburg.

Minchew, McNeff and Butler in the Red Flight with Dix accounted for two more 109s. Wilson and Demers in Yellow flight picked off one and two more 109s respectively between Augsburg and Munich in the 1335-1345 timeframe. StabII/JG3 Gruppenkommandeur Herman von Kapp also went down in this same fight.

During the fight, Minchew was separated from the flight and picked up Norman and Hillman near Munich. Norman called a bounce on unidentified single engine fighter below. Minchew investigated, only find a single 357FG Mustang. When he climbed back to altitude, Norman and Hillman had disappeared. Second Lieutenant Jack Sturm was also shot down in this fight.

Based on the timing and location it is probable that Luftwaffe Expertens Major Dahl, III/JG3 Gruppenkommandeuer and Fw Heinrich Bartels of 11/JG27 shot down Hillman, Norman and Sturm as they claimed three Mustang victories in the 1345-1347 timeframe in the Munich area. The 357FG also lost three

At 1340, just north of Munich, more B-17s out in front of the 355th came under heavy attack by 40 plus Fw 190s and Me 109s.

Kucheman led the 354FS into the gaggle and the 354th engaged for about 20 minutes in a wild scrap ranging from 35,000 feet to the deck. This fight started NW Munich, ranged over the city and around the bomber stream on the way back, SE and SSW of Munich.

Woody led his flight into one bunch of Me 109s and quickly flamed four, got heavy strikes on the fifth, but over ran it.. Boulet got strikes on number five but also ran past it as Woody slid in and put a solid burst into the engine and cockpit. Number five fell off pouring smoke, coolant and oil and finished in a tight inverted spin before blowing up. Woody then put another concentration of strikes into a sixth Me-109, from about 60 degrees deflection, before finally running out of ammo. The 109 fell off in a spin but Woody only claimed a "damaged".

In all, Woody, Fortier and Boulet destroyed nine in this encounter and Woody received a DSC for his role in the mission. Kucheman picked up three 109’s, Brown two 109’s and Fortier nailed one and shared another 109 with Boulet before the Luftwaffe was able to extract itself from this fight.

Woody and Brown became the group's fourth and fifth air aces.

Demers unfortunately was lost on the way home attacking barge traffic on the Rhine ~1425. He had a structural failure on pull up, losing both wings near Minden.

The 358FS had opportunities but stuck with the B-17’s to cover for the 354 and 357FS attacks.

The 355th FG claimed 24 but the final score was later reduced to 20-1-6. The 357th FG also had a great day in the same area with 23 claimed. In all it was bad day for ZG26, JG3, JG27 and JG300 but also a bad day for bomber losses with 14 B-17’s going down in the Munich area to fighters and flak plus another 7 crossing the border to land or crash in Switzerland. In all including ditchings, evasions into Switzerland and more losses on the way back to England the 1st Bomb Division lost 27 B-17’s, 17 due to actions by German fighters.

The Luftwaffe controllers were successful at exploiting the gap in coverage between the 357FG and 355FG due primarily to the trailing wings lagging too far from lead wings and positioned 200+ fighters in that area. The order of engagement seems to be ZG26 with 1/JG3 flying top cover around 1315-1320, followed by III/JG3 around 1325, then StabII/JG3, IV/JG26 and III & IV/JG3 in the 1330-1335 timeframe. IV/JG 27 appeared in the 1336 timeframe. The battle ranged from Regensburg to Augsburg and Dachau in the northwest to Muhldorf and Lanshut in the northeast to Rogoersdorf in the southeast to Landsberg and Oberfaffenhofen to the west of Munich.

Rarely did two different Fighter Groups cooperate so well.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Bill: probably just a typo but

at the bottom of your posting for April 24, 44 you should change JG 300 to JG 301. JG 300 was performing chases of RAF 4 engine bombers at night. JG 301 on the other hand did have Luftkampf mit P-51's

E ~

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Eric - thanks. It was a typo - you had already given me the info and my brain misfired from my notes..

I also caught another problem - I forgot that 9,10, 11 and 12 staffels in JG26 were III (nor IV) /JG26.

From the order of battle it seems that only IV/JG were equipped with Fw190's - every of ther unit but ZG26 (110G's) were Me109G's..

Bill