|
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi Guys
The micro films list twelve Luftwaffe claims in the east for 13th November 1944, eleven of which were for JG52, though I believe that these daily claims are not 100% over this period, in fact JG5's are missing from October 1944. The easiest day to pin Hartmann down would in my opinion be the following day, the Luftwaffe daily sheet lists only five claims, all JG 52. One earlier on at 0842 hrs a Jak-9 for Heinz Männel, and then two Lavochkin-5's for Hartmann at 1135 hrs and 1145 hrs, unfortunately the other two are at around the same time two Jak-9's at 1145 hrs and 1200 hrs from Gerhard Barkhorn. What does your research reveal regarding this date? Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Nikita,
You are probably right with the dogfight between 149. GvIAP pilot Stepanov and Hptm. Lipfert. But: neither Stepanov, nor his plane was a permanent loss. That's why I had only Kotlyar as 149. GvIAP (permanent) loss for November 13, 1944. Stepanov's Yak-1 got hit in the dogfight and landed on one wheel at Abony-N, at about 20 km. He returned to his regiment still on the 13th. The next day, on November 14, 1944 his plane was sent to 76. ОТЭР and got repaired. His plane serial is not clear: it was probably 42178 (so the 42nd plane of 178th Yak-1 batch, not 42188 of the 188th batch) with engine: 132-41, - as multiple errors in AC lists for 5 VA, 13 GvIAD. Keep checking. Cheers, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Johannes,
Found only one permanent 5 VA La-5 loss for November 14, 1944: La-5FN, S/N: 39213519, engine: 82131600 from 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP was lost due to dogfight with 2 'Fw 190's and AAA fire. Pilot: ml.l-t Sergei Alekseevich Matveev injured. At 13:20 (Moscow time, - 11:20 local) at the altitude of 800 m, 2+4 La-5s, covering 6 IL-2s in the area of Tarnaörs (?) met 2 'Fw 190's. Matveev's La-5 got hit in the engine and a piece hit his head. He lost consciousness and started to fall, but he managed to recover at the altitude of about 50-100 m. (An exceptionally lucky guy....!) Crashlanded on soviet held territory. Pilot was saved, but his plane was not subject to repair. Again: not a lucky number for Hartmann.... Max. 50% But let's be nice: this victory really could be Hartmann's because of same time and altitude (800 m). Even area is about the same. Probably the soviets missed the AC type, which had happened a lot in bad weather. (November, 1944) |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
On November 14, 1944 5 VA lost a few other planes.
122 IAP lost a Yak-1b, tactical no. white '12' in the region of Kóka-Zsámbok-Tarnaörs. Pilot was ml.l-t Ivan Tihonovich Blagoder who failed to return. Flight of 4 Yaks covering IL-2s, leader: ml.l-t Babanin. 179 IAP lost Bocharov's Yak-1 in a dogfight with Bf 109s at 8:40 local in the Zsámbok area, while covering IL-2s. Plane returned and crash-landed on their own airfield, pilot slightly injured. 6 Yak-1 against 6 Bf 109s. Flight leader: Maj. Kovalenko. 154 ОАЭС lost a Po-2 biplane (S/N: 7103, engine: 08297) at Orosháza-N, 15 km with 3 people onboard. Crew of ml.l-t Anikeev has perished, they are buried at Kunszentmárton. (5 VA, 264 ShAD, 235 and 809 ShAP also lost 1-1 IL-2, just like 90. GvShAP of 4. GvShAD. at Jászkisér-E, Kunmadaras and Szolnok-NW, 4 km... Plus the 92 IAP La-5FN, - see in prev. post.) Yak-1s were related to German pilots (Barkhorn???), but I cannot match them. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Some additional info for Hartmann’s claims by their AC types and dates. Many were NOT related to dogfights at all:
November 1, 1944: Found NO (permanent) Lavochkin loss for Hartmann! (Only permanent La-5(F) loss was claimed by Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy László at Szolnok. 5 VA, 177. GvIAP La-5F, S/N: 39215336, engine: 6504268, piloted by gv.ml.l-t Evgenii Ivanovich Batyunya (Батюня), - injured.) November 7, 1944: 5 VA, 150. GvIAP Yak-3 (S/N: perhaps 32(292)14, officially assigned to 5 VA, 13. GvIAD HQ/Stab., written off by November 11, 1944) was lost in a dogfight at 12:19 (local), piloted by gv.l-t Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. Six Yaks at 1400 m in the Lajosmizse area against four ‘Fw 190’s. Frontal attack, the Yak-3 burst into flames, pilot’s hands injured, burned first degree, landed with parachute. Sent to hospital. November 15, 1944: Found NO (permanent) Yak loss for Hartmann! (Only: 5 VA, 6. GvIAD, 85. GvIAP lost a Novosibirsk (Plant 153)-built Yak-9D: S/N: 2015344, engine: 415-640 in collision. Pilot: gv.ml.l-t Aleksei Ivanovich Silkin was OK.) November 21, 1944: Found NO (permanent) Lavochkin loss for Hartmann! November 22, 1944: One 809 ShAP IL-2 crash-landing at Csány, 7 km. (S/N: 1878785, later repaired and transferred to 451 ShAP.) Crew of Lt. Fedor Stepanovich Polunin and c-a Kuptsov. Only one, not 3 IL-2s. (200% IL-2 overclaim this day!) Yaks lost by 17 VA, 288. IAD in the South: 659. IAP: Yak-9D, S/N: 2015306, engine: 415-1427 (ml.l-t Yurii Aleksandrovich Vinogradov), 897. IAP, Yak-9T, S/N: 0815335, engine: 345-248 at Harkány (ml.l-t Nikolai Kuzmich Konovalov) - NOT Hartmann's op. area! November 23, 1944: 5 VA, 331 IAD has lost 3 Yak-1Bs: 122 IAP, S/:N: 32161, tactical white '1' - at take-off (8:40 local) right wing touched the ground, plane broke, ml.l-t. Evgenii Semenovich Titov is unhurt. Engine (No.355-1983) salvaged. 513 IAP, S/N: 29156 and 45168, Goichenko's and Kuyanov's Yak-1s: Six Yaks covering six 809 ShAP IL-2s. 6 Fw 190s attacked the IL-2s, another 4 the Yak-1s. AC type was probably wrong: probably 4 Bf 109s, not Fw190s. (One of them was Lipfert’s at Atkár!) December 5, 1944: 5 VA, 279 IAD, 486 IAP lost La-5FN, S/N: 39212724, engine: 8213433. Pilot, ml.l-t Vladimir Grigorevich Snagovski was MIA as the wingman over Ercsi, Budapest-S in a dogfight at 11:55 (local) with 6 ‘Fw 190’s. A La-5 pair (Lt. Blinov - ml.l-t Snagovski) against 6 Germans. Probably a La-5 recce. pair. December 9, 1944: 5 VA, 150. GvIAP lost a Yak-3, S/N: 2318 (2329218), engine: 422-304, piloted by gv.ml.l-t Lev Gerasimovich Kamanyan at 14:50 local. Crashlanded on airfield after mission to Baracska area at 1000 m. 2 Yak-3 and 2 Yak-9 against up to 20(!) ‘Fw 190’s. 5 VA, 513. IAP lost an Omsk (Plant 166)-built Yak-9D, S/N:, 19166063, piloted by Capt. Aleksandr Kuzmich Fokin, broken at landing due to soft airstrip at 13:20 (local). LAC, pilot slightly injured. 5 VA, 513. IAP lost a Novosibirsk (Plant 153)-built Yak-9M, S/N: 2515361, piloted by st.l-t Vasilii Pavlovich Fedosov at 13:50 (local) 4 Yak-9s protecting six 809 ShAP IL-2s in the Csömör area at 1500 m. Hit by flak over the target, crash-landed at Tiszanána. Pilot is OK. I think November 16 and 17 was already mentioned earlier. On November 17, 1944: Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy László's Boston victory was Lt. Danielyan's 5 VA, 453. BAP Douglas A-20G-15-DO 'Boston', S/N: 42-53956, R-2600-23: engines: 42-154063 and 42-154199 near Ócsa. Note: only ONE Boston combat-loss this day in 5 (and 17) VA, - from which 2 killed crewmen: Rizhkov and Vigovski were buried nearby at Bugyi! On this mission Hartmann was Pottyondy's wingman as they often flew together. Pottyondy attacked the bomber while Hartmann just followed him. No A-20 Boston destroyed by Hartmann this day, max. one damaged! The other Boston (S/N: 42-54223), lost on the 17th was lost due to the foggy weather and crash-landing in SE-Hungary near Kevermes, en route to Arad (Oradea, RO.), - clearly not a combat loss. I think, that’s all for Hartmann's claims in Hungary until December 9, 1944. I have no idea about other countries, but IF this statistics was his average, then he did not shoot down more than 100-150 planes altogether!!!! Not even 30-40% of his famous 352! All the rest was just paperwork (means: max. damaged, but not destroyed planes) - and propaganda of the Luftwaffe. Gabor (Source of soviet records: TsAMO, Podolsk, Russia - Central Military Archives of the Russian Federation) |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi Gabor
Some good work there. Difficult to research him in 1945 as we cannot be absolutely shore what he claimed. I have fourteen claims for him not on the micro films in late November 1944, so cannot be sure about these. In March/April 1945 I found six claims on the KBT papers, but as no times were offered it would be difficult to say one way or another unless he was the only guy claiming that day. I bet his earlier claims as a wingman were honest, but as the Russians were losing so many aircraft at that time it would be a hell of a job to match anything up. Apparently Maximilian Stotz was very honest/accurate in his claiming until the arrival of Hans "assi" Hahn to his unit, then they were bad, and you see a pronouced difference in his claiming pattern to huge daily claims, yet after Hahn's capture Stotz's claims moderate again........probably not even opportunism, looks like Hahn was a strong bad influence on him, and either he returned to honesty or was unable to fraud because of new company. Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Johannes,
Thank you. It sounds very interesting. If you wish, we can discuss those 14 additional claims for November, 1944. (Can be in PM too.) For 1945 I have not much to say as by then Hartmann left Hungary and was in battle with 5, 2 and 8 Air Armies over Silesia, Czech, etc. territory. Those soviet losses (serials, crews, dates, units, stories, etc.) of course, also could be checked and compared at TsAMO. But I have no records for them, as they are out of my research. Cheers, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Brilliant work by Gabor! (...puts on Gabor for President T-shirt...)
...But can we please stop using the words "fraud" and "fraudster", it makes it sound like these pilots were into dudding little old ladies out of their pension cheques... (and is a "reliable" pilot one who looked after the neighbours pet rabbits while they were on holidays, without letting them starve...?) |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Thanks! :) Credit to my friend(s) in Moscow.
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Johannes, HGabor,
I think we should combine the info you have put into the thread together with mine and appeal to everyone else who is able to contribute, in order to account for all of Hartmann's known claims. It would settle the debate pretty much once and for all... |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Good idea, but I am afraid I cannot add much more to the topic unless I know more dates and AC types to check for Hartmann over Hungary. Thanks,
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Perfectly understandable. Would you be willing to share more info on Lipfert's claims with the board? Now that we know how inaccurate Hartmann's claims truly were, it would be fascinating to see how accurate Lipfert was, especially for those of us who have read his war diary.
|
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
No problem. Lipfert eg. downed 2 IL-2s on March 20, 1945 while being 'drunk'. It was not his fault, he got an alarmstart while celebrating. Anyway, with reduced fear he downed 2 IL-2s from the waves of the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP in the Lake Balaton-NE area in Hungary. Overall he mainly battled the 17 VA, not the 5th.
Victories: No.190 at 15:33 and No.191 at 15:41. (Reported locations are not accurate.) Victims: 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, Ilyushin IL-2m3, S/N: 11082, Mikulin AM-38F engine: S/N. 252688 from Plant 1., Kuybishev, Russia. Tactical No.: White '8'. Crew: ml.l-t Petr Alekseevich Taranovich pilot and st.s-t Victor Konstantinovich Ogarkov gunner, injured. Crashed at Gúttamási-NW. 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, Ilyushin IL-2m3, S/N: 1871797, Mikulin AM-38F engine: S/N. 257374 from Plant 18., also Kuybishev, Russia. Tactical No.: White '23'. Crew: Aleksei Dmitrievich Belyashin pilot KIA and s-t Phillip Fomich Verbitski gunner KIA. They crashed in the swampy lake near Öskü. Their plane has been partially recovered. See small samples from the dozens of detailed documentation pages of 136 ShAD and 210 ShAP. (1945 journal) See also portrait of Belyashin (+) and the crash site during the recovery. Soviet documentation, or "MACR" :-))) sometimes attached even visual draft of the dogfight, see Belyashin's loss with the attack of Bf 109s and 'Fw 190's at Öskü. Gabor PS: guys, I am sorry, but I must be very brief in the future as this case is ONLY a brief sample to show you what soviet records hold. As I am a supporter of an Aviation Museum, I have certain limits of sharing our stuff, even if we have all of the details. Thanks for understanding. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi Guys
If you drop me a personal e.mail I'll send you my lists of top aces. Düttmann's has the best details i.e crash-sites throughtout, Barkhorn's, Hartmann's lake times/places for 1945. I always thought that Woidich's eighty-two looked honest, same with Rall, Robert Weiss, Borchers and Trenkel. I did find 362 claims by pilots for 5th July 1943(Kursk), think that flak takes it up to the often quoted figure of 480, is won't help with individuals, but knowing the losses would indicate the extent of the overclaiming! Regards Johannes P.S Lipfert's honesty enforces my belief that you can usually tell a fraudster by the pattern of his claiming....always thought he was one of the good guys. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Thanks a lot Gabor
really interesting info! Juha |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
And more generally, how about Barkhorn? At lest during the war he was thought to be very reliable claimer.
Juha |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
You are welcome! Honestly, in the past I did not focus on matching opponents to each other, I just started to check them as I saw that so many colleagues are interested in it. Plus it would not hurt to point out the false claims once and for all.
Now I started to go through Lipfert's claims and the soviet losses, please be patient, it takes some time. :-) Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Well Gabor, you certainly have a captive audience...
Johannes, do you have Duettmann et al's claims linked to actual Soviet losses? Nick |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
This is so far. As you see, Lipfert is not even on the same page with Hartmann... I am sure Lipfert IN REAL(!) downed a lot more planes than Hartmann... Compared to Lipfert, now I cannot take Hartmann's claims seriously. I think many books should be re-written, Wikipedia updated, etc.... Keep working... No.: …. Reported AC: …. Date: ………. Real victim: 146 …. Yak-11 …. 17.10.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, l-t Malyavin KIA 147 …. La-5 …. 21.10.44. ………. La-5F, 5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, ml.l-t Sukovyants, OK 148 …. IL-2 …. 23.10.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 131 GvShAP, Kralkin killed - Babailov killed 149 …. IL-2 …. 23.10.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 131 GvShAP, Lapinski POW - Filippov MIA 150 …. Yak-7 …. 24.10.44. ………. Yak-9T, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Sisko, POW 151 …. IL-2 …. 27.10.44. ………. Unsure, probably one of 5 VA, 207 ORAP IL-2KR losses 152 …. Yak-7 …. 27.10.44. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged 153 …. Yak-9 …. 13.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Stepanov, pilot returned, plane repaired and returned in service 154 …. Yak-11 …. 16.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Capt. Artemev KIA 155 …. IL-2 …. 17.11.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, Kurilov KIA - Ananev 156 …. IL-2 …. 17.11.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, Ivlev WIA - Petrunin WIA 157 …. Yak-7 …. 17.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Noskov, MIA 158 …. Yak-9 …. 23.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Kuyanov, KIA (Sorry about formatting. Please note: my comment is only for Hungary. I have only very limited records for other countries, mainly for 1945.) |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Finally: Lipfert's claims for Hungary.
No.: …. Reported AC: …. Date: ………. Real victim: 146 …. Yak-11 …. 17.10.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, l-t Malyavin KIA 147 …. ….La-5 …. 21.10.44. ………. La-5F, 5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, ml.l-t Sukovyants, OK 148 …. …..IL-2 …. 23.10.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 131 GvShAP, Kralkin killed - Babailov killed 149 …. …..IL-2 …. 23.10.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 131 GvShAP, Lapinski POW - Filippov MIA 150 …. ..Yak-7 …. 24.10.44. ………. Yak-9T, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Sisko, POW 151 …. …..IL-2 …. 27.10.44. ………. Unsure, probably one of 5 VA, 207 OKRAP IL-2KR losses 152 …. ..Yak-7 …. 27.10.44. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged 153 …. ..Yak-9 …. 13.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Stepanov, pilot returned, plane repaired and returned in service 154 …. Yak-11 …. 16.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Capt. Artemev KIA 155 …. …..IL-2 …. 17.11.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, Kurilov KIA - Ananev 156 …. …..IL-2 …. 17.11.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, Ivlev WIA - Petrunin WIA 157 …. ..Yak-7 …. 17.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Noskov, MIA 158 …. ..Yak-9 …. 23.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Kuyanov, KIA 159 …. ..Yak-9 …. 05.12.44. ………. Yak-9T, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, ml.l-t Erko, MIA 160 …. …..IL-2 …. 09.12.44. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP, ml.l-t Veretelnikov MIA - Bezroukov ml.s-t 161 …. ...Pe-2 …. 11.12.44. ………. Pe-2, 17 VA, 39 ORAP, Elohov-Uhvatov-Tisenko, all KIA in Lake Balaton at Balatonkenese 162 …. …..IL-2 …. 22.12.44. ………. IL-2, probably 17 VA, 189 ShAD - looks a real victory, but unsure which one, too many losses 163 …. ..Yak-9 …. 23.12.44. ………. Probably Yak-9D, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP, st.l-t Salamatov - but crashlanded on airfield after dogfight with Bf 109 at Lake Balaton-E 164 …. …..IL-2 …. 24.12.44. ………. Unsure, perhaps 17 VA, 189 ShAD 165 …. ..Yak-9 …. 25.12.44. ………. Yak-9T or Yak-1B, real 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP victory, but unsure which one,- too many options 166 …. ..Yak-9 …. 25.12.44. ………. Yak-9T or Yak-1B, real 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP victory, but unsure which one,- too many options 167 …. ….La-5 …. 02.01.45. ………. La-5, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, ml.l-t Roi, OK 168 …. ..Yak-9 …. 02.01.45. ………. Yak-9T, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP, ml.l-t Dimov, KIA 169 …. …..IL-2 …. 04.01.45. ………. IL-2, real 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP victory, but unsure which one,- too many options 170 …. …..IL-2 …. 04.01.45. ………. IL-2, real 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP victory, but unsure which one,- too many options 171 …. ..Yak-9 …. 04.01.45. ………. Yak-9D, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 897 IAP, ml.l-t Konovalov, WIA at Bicske 172 …. ….La-5 …. 04.01.45. ………. La-5FN, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP, ml.l-t Suhorukhov KIA 173 …. Boston …. 08.01.45. ………. A-20B-DL, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, Vetlov-Ionov-Tolmatski-Burtsev, all KIA 174 …. Boston …. 08.01.45. ………. A-20G-40-DO, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, Kruglov-Kudryavtsev-Sikov-Shestakov, all KIA 175 …. ..Yak-3 …. 14.01.45. ………. Yak-9D, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Bezuglii, WIA 176 …. ..Yak-3 …. 14.01.45. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged. (For another loss the time does not match here) 177 …. ….La-5 …. 16.01.45. ………. Probably damaged. 2 La-5s lost, but 12:17 is too early, those were late afternoon 178 …. ….La-5 …. 22.01.45. ………. La-5F, or La-5FN, a real 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 or 164 IAP victory, but unsure which one 179 …. …..IL-2 …. 27.01.45. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 951 ShAP, l-t Filonovich KIA - Abrosimov MIA 180 …. ….La-5 …. 22.02.45. ………. La-7, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 179 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Pinko WIA 181 …. ..Yak-3 …. 22.02.45. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged 182 …. ..Yak-9 …. 25.02.45. ………. Yak-9T or Yak-9M, a real 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP victory but unsure which one 183 …. …..IL-2 …. 08.03.45. ………. No exact match, many losses reported due to flak, this can easily be one of them, if so: 17 VA, 136 or 189 ShAD 184 …. ..Yak-3 …. 11.03.45. ………. Yak-9M, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP, l-t Kutsenko KIA 185 …. ..Yak-3 …. 11.03.45. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged, or crashlanded on airfield 186 …. ..Yak-7 …. 13.03.45. ………. Yak-9M, probably 17 VA, 288 IAD, 866 IAP, l-t Kamenetskii OK 187 …. ….La-5 …. 14.03.45. ………. La-5FN, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, ml.l-t Iozhitskii, POW 188 …. …..IL-2 …. 14.03.45. ………. IL-2, probably 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 672 ShAP, l-t Mamontov KIA, - s-t Kovalev KIA 189 …. …..IL-2 …. 17.03.45. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 189 ShAD, 615 ShAP, Capt. Nikitin OK, gv.s-t Apalkov OK 190 …. …..IL-2 …. 20.03.45. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, ml.l-t Taranovich - Ogarkov WIA 191 …. …..IL-2 …. 20.03.45. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, ml.l-t Belyashin KIA - Verbitskii KIA 192 …. ….La-5 …. 21.03.45. ………. La-5FN, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, st.l-t Vasilev, KIA - in Lake Balaton 193 …. Yak-5? …. 21.03.45. ………. Yak-5?????? Dunno this…. Some cases are still not clear, but most of them is in place. His accuracy is amazing, he was one of the best and most honest German fighter pilots in WWII. Let us remember him as well as his victims, who paid the Ultimate Sacrifice in WWII. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor,
B R I L L I A N T. For the Yak claimed on 25.2.45, I found this info a long while back that might help you: This was most likely Romanian Bf109G W.Nr. 166248/"Yellow 9" of Grupul 9. Adj. Stag Av. Traian Darjan KIA Source: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/darian/darian.htm Are you able to provide the serial numbers of the Bostons claimed on 8th January, 1945 Nick |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Additionally, for his victory on 14.3.45:
I originally had on my listing, 116 IAP. Kapitan Anatolii Alexandrovich Pantelkin HSU, OL, 2 x ORB, Order of A Nievskii, OPW 2nd class and ORS (18 kills), KIA. Was this also a possibility? Nick |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Nick,
On January 8, 1945 Lipfert downed A-20B-DL, S/N: 41-2937 first with the Lt. Vetlov crew. Her nickname was "За Победу!" - For Victory! - (See her well known photo below, taken in Bulgaria still in the fall of 1944.) She was a single plane, leading the 449th group and by waving the wings tried to pick up the Yak fighter escort from the airfield of Börgönd, Székesfehérvár-S when Lipfert caught her. Exploded mid-air. Second he shot out A-20G, S/N: 43-21588 from the formation. Only the pilot, Lt. Kruglov bailed out, but hit the vertical stabilizer, lost his consciousness and did not open his parachute. His body was found far away from the plane. The rest 3 went down with the plane. The third soviet Boston, lost on this mission was S/N: 43-9596, piloted by Lt. Larionov. It was downed by Lipfert's wingman, Sepp Prokoph. This entirely crew survived, but all 8 men in Lipfert's planes died. The soviets collected the bodies and took back for a regiment ceremony and funeral to their base at Madocsa. They were buried there. As of the engines the soviet mechanical papers wrote them off together in a common list, so it is hard to match them properly to the planes: 43-104269-23 43-104259-23 57293-23 36247-11 43-102944-23 43-155228-23 Since only one was a regular A-20B, R-2600-11 type engine, therefore 41-2937 must have had mixed engines installed. (An A-20B and an A-20G engine at the same time!) La-5 on March 14, 1945 - Pantelkin, (HSU): Answer: NO. Lipfert downed the La-5 at 12:07 PM near Székesfehérvár. Pantelkin was shot down at 15:00 PM local time at Sárkeresztúr in his 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP La-5FN, S/N: 39212869, engine: 8213627, tactical '69', while protecting 10 (12, but 2 early returned) 136 ShAD IL-2s. He was ambushed from the back by a 'new model Fw 190'. (?) This really could be anything, a Bf 109, or even pure politics to cover the Hero's fatal mistake by a new, fantasy model's superiority. No Doras in Hungary, anyway. ml.l-t Iozhitskii (л-т Иожицкий, POW) was downed at Székesfehérvár in his La-5FN, S/N: 39211637, engine: 8211279, tactical '37'. His flight of six 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP La-5s took off from Tököl airfield at 11:45 AM to cover 12 IL-2s in the Székesfehérvár area. This perfectly matches the battle of 12:07 PM, local time! So Pantelkin was downed by another pilot for sure, NOT by Lipfert. Lipfert downed л-т Иожицкий (POW) for sure. Rumanian Bf 109G on 25.02.1945 can be just a speculation, as two 5 VA, 513 IAP Yak-9Ts were lost in the same area. Not sure about it. I hope this clarifies the cases. Cheers, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
One of the Bf 109 G-6 of the AAR 9 Grupul shot down on the 25Feb45 was the ace Traian Darjan. Also ask about on that day in another thread was Prince Constanin Cantacuzino but no answer was fore coming. This is not to say that Lipfert shot down Darjan but could be possible.
|
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi, all.
Sorry for my bad english, I use translator. I am interested in the details of air battles 23 and 27 October 1944: In the first case H. Lipfert said two victories (148 - 149 Il 2; 15.31-32 local time), but ltn. Peter Düttmann and obfhr. Steins also downed Il 2 in this dogfight (Steins claim 15.33, Düttmann claim 15.34 local time) In total, according to the German data, were downed four IL 2. What is the real lost Il 2 in this combat for all reasons (fighters, AAA) ? Can we assume claims Steins and Düttmann reliable? In the second case, 27 October, H. Lipfert very recounts in his memoirs about the dogfight with Il 2 and two fighters (probably, Yaks). Lipfert downed Il 2 (12.17 local time) and one of the fighters (12.21 local time), and his wingman Steins downed the second fighter (12.18 local time). Later Lipfert personally inspected the wreckage and the dead pilots (one of the fighter pilots was HSU). In russian reports (5, 17 VA) should contain information about the losses (Il2, Yak, La) that day. Maybe, there were shot down not Yaks and other types of fighters (eg. La 5, P 39) ? Maybe, being lost aircrafts carried on the next day (eg 28.10.44) ? Interesting details combat sortie Il 2KR (207 OKRAP), under what circumstances it was lost ? |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Alfred26,
Good point! On October 23, 1944 the soviet 5 VA lost 4 IL-2s to fighters indeed. So all claims reliable that day! 5 VA, 131 GvShAP lost 3 IL-2s, (S/N: 10620, 302820, 1873563), the 132 GvShAP lost one (S/N: 18753100). Since the 3rd 131 GvShAP IL-2 (S/N: 1873563) returned -and broke- on its base, it was either Düttmann's or Stein's victory, as Lipfert's both victims (S/N: 10620 and 302820) crashed in the battle area for 100%. (1st exploded, 2nd lost its tail.) So the 3rd returned and was a write-off, but the gunner was missing! They found traces of blood in his seat. He either fell, or jumped out from the plane during the mission. The plane returned only with the pilot. Originally it was only damaged during the fight, but finished-off on the base. It was a write-off, probably used for parts later. It is interesting, that the 131 GvShAP lost an IL-2 from all 3 main IL-2 factories this day: 1xxxx from Factory No.1 at Kuybishev, 18xxxxx from Factory No.18 also at Kuybishev and 30xxxx from Factory No.30 in Moscow. On October 27, 1944 the airfield of Debrecen was strafed by about 6 Fw 190s and 8 Bf 109s. As a result a Yak-1B and a Yak-9M fighter of the 5 VA, 513 IAP was destroyed, 7 Po-2 biplanes of 930 NBAP, 2 IL-2s of 451 ShAP and another 3 unidentified planes of the 18 TAP were damaged. Several people died or wounded as well. A La-5FN and a Yak-3 was lost during the missions as well as probably two 207 OKRAP IL-2KRs. No details on their mission, only personnel losses, so I do not know. Note that the 207 OKRAP lost 4 airmen this day. Since it was a mixed Recce. regiment, flying IL-2KR and Yak-9 Recce. planes too, these losses could be 2 IL-2s -OR- one IL-2 and two Yak-9s! As I have no plane data for 207 OKRAP for this day, anything is possible. Maybe a single IL-2 loss as 'yours' plus 2 Yaks for other German claims. I have no idea. No other known permanent 5 VA IL-2 loss this day anyway. See, the soviet papers are tricky. Mechanical papers reveal plane info without crew names. Personnel papers give crew data without plane info. Regiment journals give a bit from each. So in order to get a full view, you need to see a whole arsenal of documents, as opposed to the American MACRs where practically everything is together for the case. Soviet research is like a puzzle. Very interesting, but takes lots of time and patience. Cheers, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor, thanks ! Very interesting !
Yes, it is very likely that downed Il 2 and two Yak 9 were part of the 207 OKRAP. May be able to find more information about the events of that day, knowing the name and surname of dead pilots (eg. databases WWII losses or other sources) ? Two other plane (La 5FN and Yak 3) were also lost in combat missions? The pilots of these planes were lost ? Best Regards, Alfred |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Mechanical paper of 5 VA, 207 OKRAP lists two (Omsk, Factory No.166-built) Yak-9D and one IL-2KR recce. plane loss between November 1-15, 1944. Chances are these 3 planes were the losses on October 27, 1944 as prev. days' losses - depends on how long investigation and paperwork took:
IL-2KR, S/N: 10948, AM-38F engine: 256676 Yak-9D, S/N: 19166066, engine: 415-1037 Yak-9D, S/N: 19166078, engine: 415-90 So it looks like the 4 airmen lost on October 27, 1944 flew 2 Yaks and one IL-2 indeed. This is based on the plane info only, no combat details, even if their names are known. Both La-5 and Yak-3 pilots survived the battle and were taken POW. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Quote:
Juha |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
At least it is not in his claim list...
|
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor, great thanks !
Best Regards, Alfred |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
Incredible info Gabor.. :bow::bow::bow: maybe if we can share more it would be in the right way many times i hit a wall with russian info :evil2: hehe You have some little more of these pilots: Wilhelm Batz Peter Duttmann Heinrich Sturm ....... Aladar Heppes László Pottyondy Laszlo Molnar György Debrődy (very interesting for me) Istvan Fabian ...... many thanks, regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
For Juha et al:
The 25.2.45 victory was claimed as a Yak-9. Historians like us who were trying to match the victory to the loss have surmised that it was a misidentification of Darjan's Bf109. Hence, a Bf109 does not show up in Lipfert's victory list and indeed his memoirs state his desire to have encountered a Romanian-flown Bf109 as he thought it would be interesting to dogfight with one. This is because he had trained Romanian pilots and wanted to "see what they had learned." Or in other words: if he did ever actually tangle with a Bf109 in reality, certainly at the time of writing his memoirs he was unknowing of the fact. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hah, I am glad you like it. Again: credit to my friend(s) in Moscow I work with on the soviet plane losses in Hungary.
But if you do not mind, please be a little bit more specific about the pilots and their claims, as in details all these questions would require a series of books to be written... Which might come in the future, but now it would be too early. You specifically mentioned Debrődy György (George), one of Hungary's most successful fighter pilots. Probably you know that he was shot down on November 16, 1944 in a very heavy dogfight with soviet fighters, which basically terminated his fighting career. He, as well as his soviet opponent was a very dedicated and experienced soldier, who chose the most dangerous form of the aerial combat: a head-on, frontal attack. The Yak-9 and the Bf 109G were getting closer and closer to each other with an incredible speed and none of them wanted to turn out... They both knew: whoever turns out first will loose the battle. So they opened fire at the same time and mutually hit each other. The Yak exploded with a large fireball, while Debrődy was shot in the stomach and the bullet(s) passed through his body. He crash-landed near Hatvan and only the fast medical intervention saved his life. Years later, after the war he started to feel a big back pain. They made an X-ray and ... a soviet 12.7 mm bullet was clearly visible beside his backbone!!! A long surgery removed it and it was hanging above his bed for the rest of his life as a literally painful memory from his last battle in WWII. His opponent was most likely gv.ml.l-t Ismail Semenovich Rulev (KIA). His Novosibirsk, factory No.153-built plane: Yak-9D, S/N: 2015329, engine: 415-992 belonged to 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP. Otherwise we just finished a very successful project with our Russian colleauges: identified and recovered an IL-2 near Seregélyes, Hu. Briefly: the plane was downed by flak on March 14, 1945 from 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP. S/N: 18842110, engine: 2510758. The only clue we had to successfully identify the crew was a broken piece of the engine block with the last 2 digits of the engine serial number: .......58. So I started to check the lost IL-2 engine serials of the 17 VA and found only two such cases! One crashed far away, but the other one right here at Seregélyes. This was IL-2 No.18842110, with the Vorobiev-Subbotin crew. Subbotin bailed out and was taken POW, but Vorobiev got stuck in his cockpit and was not able to leave his burning plane... Some time later our Russian friends were able to contact the Vorobiev family in Russia and one of his relative came to Hungary to visit the crash site and to do the necessary DNA testing, since the remains of the killed pilot were also found in the corn-field. His broken comb was handed over to his family... Finally the whole story was broadcasted in the Russian State Television. Enjoy: http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/761438/ Also, see the engine-piece, which was our 'key' to solve this mystery: ......58 and a note in the soviet 136 ShAD mechanical papers with the plane and engine serial entry - regarding the repair of this aircraft on November 19, 1944. Another pilot's late return to his family and homeland... Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Quote:
Juha |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Sorry, no info. His 182. official victory on February 25, 1945 at 10:53 is a Yak-9.
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi,
many thanks for the info Gabor, i begin to take interest for this pilot after read carefully this web: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/debrody/debrody.htm seems a reliable pilot but i only have this usaaf losses....none in russian side you can read in the last lines: "After the war he emigrated to Spain with his friend, Miklós Kenyeres, and later to Canada, and to the USA. In 1967 the doctors operated him again and eliminated from his body, near his spine a Soviet 12,7 mm bullet – it was a “souvenir” from his last combat." he had the russian bullet in his body for 23 years... regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Yep... "Who does not believe in miracles is not realistic."
I keep checking some claims and for Gerhard Barkhorn I found these: Claim No.277-278-279: three IL-2s on November 16, 1944 - Probably real victori(es), but I cannot match them to planes. The 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP lost 5 (!) IL-2s in dogfight: 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 10294, tactical white '71' at Kunt........airfield, - gv.s-a (!) Kovalev 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 10618, engine: 257326, tactical white '83' at Kóka, - st.s-t (!) Kon'uhov 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 11360, engine: 4590375, tactical white '99' at Tóalmás-E, 4 km, - gv.st.l-t Bocharov 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 303925, tactical white '75' at Kuns..........airfield - gv.ml.l-t Sadohin 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 303933, tactical white '74' at Farmos, 3 km, - gv.l-t Bizhko Three, or at least one of these was probably Barkhorn's. Claim No.280 Yak-3 on November 16, 1944 - Real victory: 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP Yak-3, S/N: 3414 (3429214), engine: 412-219, tactical '34', piloted by gv.l-t Agdantsev (OK) Claim No.281 La-5 on November 16, 1944 - Real victory: 5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5F, S/N: 39214932, engine: 65031326, tactical '32', piloted by ml.l-t Ol'nev (WIA) near Jászberény-Hatvan. Claim No.282 La-5 on November 17, 1944 - No such permanent La-5 loss, probably just damaged Claim No.283 Yak-3 on November 17, 1944 - Real victory: 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP Yak-1B, S/N: 37191, engine: 516-41 at 15:00 PM at 3000 m in the Kóka-Szentmártonkáta area. Pilot: ml.l-t Vladimir Petrovich Isupov bailed out and returned on November 19, 1944. Battle: 8 Yaks (comm: Gorelov) + 4 Yaks (comm: Gilda) against 4 Fw 190s and 2 Bf 109s. This one was Isupov's 3rd mission this day. Stepanov downed a Bf 109. Claim No.284 IL-2 on November 23, 1944 - Not sure about location, but 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 995 ShAP lost four IL-2s (S/N: 9493, 10146, 1875972, 1879583) in the Majs area in Southern-Hungary. If Barkhorn flew his mission to the South, then one IL-2 was probably his victory, - but I cannot verify it. Claim No.285 Pe-2 on November 24, 1944 - Interesting case. Looks like the soviet units, flying Pe-2s in the area did NOT loose any planes this day! At least no losses in 5 VA, 511 ORAP and no losses in 48 GvORAP. (No info about 17 VA, 39 ORAP, but I think it was still not in Barkhorn's op. area, so this claim was probably max. damaged, but not destroyed.) Claim No.286 Yak-9 on December 25, 1944 - Probably a real victory as several Yak losses in 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP. Also few other losses in 659 IAP, etc. But because there is no location in his claim, at this moment it is impossible to match to certain planes. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor,
Let me also extend my thanks to you for your tremendous contributions to this field of inquiry and wholeheartedly encourage you to continue in this worthy endeavor. I hope not to be overbearing in asking clarification on the following Lipfert claims: - Where indicated Pilot OK or WIA (Claims 147, 156, 167, 171, 175, 180, 186, 189) –does this mean aircraft was a total loss, crash landed or just damaged? - Where “real . . . victory, but unsure which one,- too many options” (165-66, 169-70, 178); is it possible other German/Hungarian claimants or even AA (flack) were the actual victors? Regarding Barkhorn’s claims “No.277-278-279: three IL-2s on November 16, 1944”, you enigmatically state, “Three, or at least one of these was probably Barkhorn's.” Could you clarify this? Thanks again, Rob Romero |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi,
thanks Gabor, :bow::bow::bow: your info is limited to late 1944 in Hungary? i found one pilot loss in 659IAP: http://www.obd-memorial.ru/ 29 Донесение о потерях Горлач Павел Алексеевич __.__.1923 25.12.1944 Краснодарский край, Титаровский р-н, ст. Старошостовская in 611IAP another one: 59 Донесение о потерях Кириченко Дмитрий Гаврилович __.__.1918 25.12.1944 Украинская ССР, Полтавская обл., Кишинкивский р-н, с. Кошинки sorry but my information is more limited and can not add anything more, regards |
| All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:04. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net