Re: Seeking info on three Do18 crewmen from 2./KüFlGr906 rescued by U-30 on 28.03.40
 

Do 18 D-3
Verbandkennzeichen : 8 L+KK
Verband : 2./ Kü.Fl.Gr.606, 2./ Kü.Fl.Gr.906
Werknummer : V 831
Verlustdatum : 1940-04-09
Verlustort : Hörnum
Verlustgrund : Landungsbruch, 100%
Chronik : Januar 1939 – Fertigung bei Weserflug in Einswarden (JP)
Januar 1939 – an 2./ Küstenfliegergruppe 606 in Kamp
25.10.1939 – an 2./ Küstenfliegergruppe 906 in Hörnum als 8L+KK (2)
09.04.1940 - 5 sm südöstl. Hörnum, Bruchlandung durch überschlag, 100% (1,2)
Schicksal Besatzung : † (FF) Uffz. Otto Backhaus, † (Bw) Uffz. August Haupt,
(Bo) Olt. z. S. Rolf Manke

Edit, Maybe this picture from the Crew U30 http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...UBoote/U30.htm

Re: Seeking info on three Do18 crewmen from 2./KüFlGr906 rescued by U-30 on 28.03.40
 

The KTB of U-30 for this time period is available on National Archives Reel T1022-2831. According to the National Archives publication 'Records Relating to U-Boat Warfare 1939-1945' it includes an account of 'the recovery of the crew of a downed German aircraft'.

Re: Seeking info on three Do18 crewmen from 2./KüFlGr906 rescued by U-30 on 28.03.40
 

Hi Larry,

Maybe you like to know that H.H. IPach was a crewmember in U30 before he changed to airfaorce. he was POW with U95 28. Nov. 1941 an survived the war , regards

Re: Seeking info on three Do18 crewmen from 2./KüFlGr906 rescued by U-30 on 28.03.40
 

lilsis,

Indeed this is useful information about his association previously with U-30. We've added that as a comment to our loss report. Thanx.

Re: Seeking info on three Do18 crewmen from 2./KüFlGr906 rescued by U-30 on 28.03.40
 

Hi Larry , on 25 Nov. 1940 a BV138 landed off the SW coast of Ireland due to engine trouble , the plane landed in rough seas and suffered damage to one of the floats and was unable to take off again .The crew made it to a near by island and were later interned in Ireland until August 1945 . One of the crew was Fw Hans Biegel , must be the same guy as in your first post !
He passed away a few years ago .

Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Hello,

At the EoE WG (Working Group) we're trying to locate and catalog photos of every known LW and Allied a/c loss from 01.09.39 through 09.05.40. I think that there is a high probability that photos exist of all or almost all crash or force-landing incidents, especially LW planes that came down in France. Here is one that stumps me. The caption is dated 17.11.39 and says it shows the remains of a "Messerschimitt" shot down by French Curtiss fighters in a big air battle with 27 Bf109s "over the French lines."

I'm sure that other photos must exist of this incident, and it is sometime prior to the release date of the photo, perhaps even several weeks. Can anyone help put a precise date and place on this photo? Does anyone have additional photos relating to this incident, or a better copy of this photo?

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-CHd...-CHdRTSD-M.jpg
http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-gTD...-gTDRvz2-M.jpg

We've got photos of most or all of the better-known crashes and FL, including those in the Netherlands and Belgium, but if anyone has photos of some of the lesser known, or not recently published incidents, I'd appreciate hearing from you.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Larry,

Here is I believe relevant excerpt from Mike Spick's book Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, page 36: "... A more significant combat took place on 6 November 1939. Polish campaign top-scorer Hannes Gentzen , at the head of JGr 102, was patrolling the frontier between the Maginot and Sigfried Lines. Well below he spotted a French Potez 637 on reconnaissance, escorted by nine Hawk 75s of GC II/5. Everything was in his favour - altitude, combat experience, and a numerical advantage of 3:1. He dived to the attack.

The French fought back fiercely. During the ensuing dogfight four Bf 109s were shot down and another four force-landed. The sole French casualty was a Hawk 75 which belly landed but was repairable...."

The above seems to fit the story on the back of the photo, including its delayed release.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Hi Larry,

The battle ' 9 against 27 ' (see text on the back side of the second picture) happened on 6 november 1939 when 9 aircraft of GC II/5 attacked (during the afternoon) approx 20 Bf109's.


Best regards


Luc

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

A bit strange, the stamp of a Dutch company in Amsterdam! Would that mean the person who toke the photo was Dutch?

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Not directly relevant : a photo-blog on GC II/5.
http://maquette72.free.fr/themes/laf...sse/index1.php

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Lovely crater...

ClinA-78

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Post No.5: It appears to me that the link to a photo blog on GC II/5 might actually be relevant - photos No.16 and 17 are captioned as "photo 16 : 1939 - novembre- le 6 - Slt Tremolet", which reads "6 November 1939 - Slt. Tremolet (i.e., the pilot)". So this Hawk 75 coded "Yellow 3" would be the only GC II/5 casualty of the day.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Hi Larry,
Avions 157 (pages 4 - 14) mentions in the article " The battle of " 9 against 27 " " by Lionel Persyn the following details about the Bf109's which crashed in France :

One Bf109 crashed at Antilly. Pilot Oberleutnant Waldemar Von Roon, Staffelkapitän of I./JGr 102, is seriously injured and will not survive. His plane was shot down by sergent Legrand.
The second one crashed at Ittersdorf. The pilot, Leutnant Günter Voigt of Stab/JGr 102, baled out and was taken prisoner. This plane was shot down by sergent Edouard Salès.
A third one is shot down at Anzeling. His pilot, Feldwebel Fritz Gielh of the I.Staffel is also taken prisoner. His plane was shot down by aspirant Lefol.
A last Bf109 crashed at Hunnenberg. The pilot Oberleutnant Josef Kellner-Steinmetz, Staffelkapitän of 3./JGr 102, is killed aboard his plane. His plane was shot down by sergent Edouard Salès (2° victory).

Another one crashed in Germany (pilot Unteroffizier Hans Jenning, aircraft for 70 % destroyed).
3 other ones returned damaged to their base at Lachen-Speyersdorf.

A scanned copy of the article can be supplied.



A few comments from my side regarding the photographs published :
The plane dived with high speed in the ground.
I don't think that a pilot aboard this plane could have survived this crash. Can it be presumed that the pilot was dead or that he bailed out ?
The photograph must have been taken very shortly after the crash.
A lot of people are watching something, but they are not watching in the direction of the plane. Are they watching the pilot ?
Was this huge crater caused by the crash of the Bf109 ?
Are the many people on the photograph soldiers ? If so, the plane must have crashed close to a military installation where a lot of them were stationed, sa. Anzeling (a Maginot-fortress).

Best regards from Belgium

Luc

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Luc, Sidney, et. al.

Between these posts and a private direct response, I'm convinced that this shows one of the crashed Bf109Ds of I./JGr102 that were lost in the famous air battle on 06.11.39. So we've pinpointed the date and the specific air battle, but cannot yet associate this photo with a particular loss since four of them seem possible:

From the EoE LW Loss List:

"1) Stab JGr.102Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down by Asp Lefol of GC II/5 in combat south-west of Saarlautern and abandoned over Anzeling 3.00 p.m. (Ff) Lt Günther Voigt (Gruppen NO) baled out and captured unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off.

2) 1./JGr.102Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Exploded under attack by Sgt A. Legrand of GC II/5 and crashed near Antilly, 10 km north of Metz 3.00 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Waldemar von Roon (Staffelkapitän) badly wounded, died two days later. Aircraft 100% write-off.

3) 1./JGr.102Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down in combat with Curtiss H-75s of GC II/5 and crashed 30 km east of Metz 3.10 p.m. Believed that claimed by Sgt E. Salès near Eincheville. (Ff) Fw Fritz Giehl baled out and captured unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off.

4) 3./JGr.102Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Engine set alight under attack by Sgt E. Salès of GC II/5 east of Hesdorf and abandoned over Hunnenberg 3.00 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Josef Kellner-Steinmetz (Staffelkapitän) baled out but killed. Aircraft 100% write-off."

All four of these are generally E & N of Metz towards the German border and within about 25km of each other.

Some comments on the crash photo:

1) I think that this "109" crashed into the side of a gully or ravine, and what we're seeing is not a bomb crater, or even a crater made by the crash, but mostly a terrain feature of the crash site.

2) The pilot certainly was either killed or bailed out.

In a perfect world, for our EoE coverage we would like to show on the German side photos of all four crash sites, photos of the damaged a/c that force-landed or returned to base, photos of the pilots shot down and killed or captured, and, on the French side, photos of the main French participants, including the successful pilots and their a/c, including the force-landed Curtiss referred to in an earlier post on this thread and for which at least two good photos exist.

What we already have, besides this photo, is a poor quality photo of Bf109D-1 "Red 7" FL somewhere in western Germany from this combat:

1) "2./JGr.102 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Belly-landed damaged following combat with Curtiss H-75s of GC II/5 over Metz 3.00 p.m. Possibly that damaged by Asp Lefol. Pilot unhurt. Aircraft Red 7 + repairable." (via Prien Collection)

and

2) A photo of an a/c of JGr102 Bf109D-1, with the tail and rear fuselage badly shot up that landed back at Lachen-Speyerdorf. This was W.Nr.519 and carried three victory tabs of the fin of the Gr Adj., Lt Harwig-Boris Domeier, who probably piloted the a/c that day. This is already one of our EoE Color Profile aircraft.

Who can help us take this further, including identifying the specific crash seen in the posted photo?

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

If you look at the picture carefully, you can see a soldier in full kit carrying a loaded stretcher. That is what everyone is looking at. Just to the right of the central figure in the helmet and greatcoat. That would suggest that the crash was either #2 or #4.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Mark,

Good observation and deduction. Can anyone, using google satellite views or street view, locate somewhere around either of these places that looks like the background for the photo? I know that there isn't much to see--generally flat with gently rolling terrain, but this may rule out some other areas that have more rugged terrain. Or maybe someone in France lives near the area and could check out the four sites? They're not very far apart. It would be wonderful if we could find the exact location--and perhaps local photos for any of the other three Bf109D crashes that day.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

My two cents,

Even if I am not familiar with those locations, Antilly, Eincheville and Hunnenberg landscapes have large flat lands. Anzeling has hedges and is a roughly forested area. Beware, it is only a guess.
The crater seems big for a single-engined aircraft however prepare to dig there... Funny for a Phoney crash :D

I remember to have seen similar crash pictures in Icare revue.

ClinA-78

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

ClinA-78,

Thanx for the comments. I have many old issues of Icare, but not Icare Review. No familiar with those. Any possibility of forwarding a scan of any photos you've seen there possibly relating to this incident?

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

I will dig it up...

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Hello,

Have now received the original press photo that this image came from. It is still very grainy which makes me think that it was a frame from a movie film. Anybody have any thoughts on where that film might be available? Perhaps a caption with it will give us a location that will link to one of the four possible crash sites.

Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Hello,

For captioning and profile dating purposes, I'm trying to ID the large industrial complex visible below the Bf110 in these photos. The plane is L1+XB of Hptm Horst Liensberger, the Gr Kdr of V.(Z)/LG1.

This could be a practice flight over Germany during the spring of 1940, or later during the Western Campaign or the Battle of Britain. However, I suspect that this probably was in Germany as it would seem suicidal for a heavy fighter to be overflying at such low level what would have been a heavily defended target in France or Britain. Nevertheless, does anybody recognize this very large industrial facility?

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-tzB...-tzBDrJf-L.jpg

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-GHr...-GHrTFrM-L.jpg

Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Hello,

V.(Z)/LG1 was based at Alencon AF, France for about a week at the end of June and the beginning of July 1940. This photo appears in the book, "Zerstörer Gruppe," by Ludwig von Eimannsberger with the caption that it was taken at that base. However, the location doesn't fit with the markings and W.Nr. on this a/c, in terms of the career of Hptm. Horst Liensberger, the unit Gr Kdr, whose plane is in the picture.

Can anyone confirm that this is Alencon?

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-bxk...-bxkFZQv-L.jpg

Thanx for any assistance.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

For what it's worth:

http://www.servicehistorique.sga.def...y-the-SHD.html



Ed

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Hi,

http://www.gaumontpathearchives.com/...=14565&rang=64

http://www.gaumontpathearchives.com/...205433&rang=97

http://www.gaumontpathearchives.com/...14593&rang=163

Some movie films were made and are kept at Gaumont Pathé Archives.

http://www.gaumontpathearchives.com/...ml=5&langue=EN

It is however not possible to watch them on this website.

Best regards

Luc

Seeking photo of Bf110C-1 of Oblt Gordon Gallob, the Sta Kap of 3./ZG76 during the Polish Campaign period, or any time during 1939
 

Hello,

For profiling purposes, I'm seeking a photo of the Bf110C-1 of Oblt Gordon Gallob, the Sta Kap of 3./ZG76 during the Polish Campaign period, or late 1939. He may well have been flying M8+AL, but I have no proof of that. Can anyone help? If no photos are known, is there any confirmation that the letter of his a/c as "A" at that time? He is believed to have shot down a Polish PWS-26 flown by Kpr. Mieczyslaw Rabinowicz on 05.09.39.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Hello,

1) I have received a direct email from a French source that indicates that this is the crash of Oblt. von Roon on my list of possible crashes, with a possible location of Vry, a village, near Andilly. This accounts for all the people, which apparently numbered as many as 200 visiting the crash site.

One mystery still remains, how did von Roon survive this crash for even a couple of days? Did he bail out just prior to the crash and land with severe injuries either from the air battle or a parachute jump? It's hard to see how he could have survived the crash itself, if he was still in the aircraft.

2) Luc, thanx for the excellent research on the film archives. Does anyone have access to these films? Do scans of frames exist from these that will further help tell the story of the 6 Nov air battle (or any others from the Phoney War period)? Does any of this material contain further film of the Bf109Ds that crashed? Has anyone already researched these film archives for such material?

The great support for this request is deeply appreciated. We've now gone from an unidentified smoking hole in the ground to very likely a full identification and additional information on an important air battle, that at that time was a great French success. Are there French publications that have reconstructed this action in detail and which might contain additional useful photos, other than the blog images posted earlier in this thread? Does anyone have a photo of von Roon?

Re: Seeking photo of Bf110C-1 of Oblt Gordon Gallob, the Sta Kap of 3./ZG76 during the Polish Campaign period, or any time during 1939
 

We can change - i seek one from Hubert Zimke..

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Perhaps a clue from feldgrau.net


"As a result of the aerial combat which took place on November 6, 1939 against 9 French Hawk H-75 (GC II. / 5) escorting a reconnaissance plane Potez-63, two squadron leaders were killed in action; Oberleutnant Waldemar v. Roon of the 1./ JGR 102 (replaced by Hauptmann Armin Ettling) and Oberleutnant Joachim Kellner-Steinmetz of the 3./ JGR 102 (replaced by Oberleutnant Eberhard Sauer). Four other aircraft made ​​forced landings with serious damages and one injured pilot.

"Hauptmann Armin Ettling took command of the 1./JGr 102 from December 13, 1939 onwards. He was a veteran of the Legion Condor as Leutnant he had won the Spanish Cross in Gold in the J/88 and was awarded the Iron Cross 2º Class in 1939; later he assumed command of the 7./JG 2."

Sources: http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=8741
Der Adler Nº 21 1939.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

AVIONS N°157 contains an article by Lionel Persyn :
http://www.avions-bateaux.com/produit/avions/1026

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

udf,

Unfortunately I don't have that issue of Avions. We're checking on ordering a copy. Looks like this would be a very helpful account. Does anyone know if there are photos of any of the other German crashes in this issue?

Back to locating precisely the crash site, I note on P. 102/3 of "Fledgling Eagles (English Edition), "Sgt. Legrand shot down one (Bf109D) which exploded on the bank of the Moselle river near Antilly..." However, Vry seems to be the opposite direction from Antilly from the Moselle River, that goes through Metz and lies only a couple of kms west of Antilly. The photo certainly looks like the crash could have been on the bank of a river. Does any reader of this board live in the vicinity of Metz, and might be able to check this out, and even possibly be able to locate this spot?

Thanx for your continuing comments and help. We're going to really nail this one. Still need help matching the other losses with photos of the German plane crashes. Anybody know about more crash photos?

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Hello,

I've had a direct email from a French expert who says that this isn't Alencon. This could even be an airfield in Germany prior to the Western Campaign, rather than at Alencon just after the WC/FC. Does anyone recognize this place, in either France or western Germany.

Re: Seeking photo of Bf110C-1 of Oblt Gordon Gallob, the Sta Kap of 3./ZG76 during the Polish Campaign period, or any time during 1939
 

Hello,

Oops, I did mean Oblt. Gordon Gollob's Sta Kap a/c with 3./ZG76 from the beginning of the war period. Thanx to Chris Goss for correcting my spelling.

Regards,

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Larry,

Attached is a ebay auction photo with similar hangars. According to the seller this photo was taken at Lyon. Hope this might help.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Rudy,

Could be Lyon but before WWII there were many similar hangar called "Arnodin-Eiffel" in France.

Examples here :

http://www.planete-tp.com/IMG/pdf/Ha..._cle05543c.pdf

I think that the high tower will let us the solution.

Bertrand

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Rudi and Bertrand,

Thanx for your inputs. So it seems that this is a French-style hangar (unless the Germans also used the same type), so it was taken somewhere in France, but apparently not Alencon. Someone should recognize that setting with the very tall control tower.

This is important because it helps me date the profile of Liensberger's aircraft in the photo. The camouflage and markings of V.(Z)/LG1 Bf110s during the WC/FC was complicated and this will help sort that out.

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Good evening Larry !

In the front of the photo, you may see something like a river or a canal. In the center, before the industrial complex start, you see a huge coal dump. Between the coal dump and the industrial buildings, probably rail tracks are visible.

The scene looks like a steel-work with a considerable large coal-mine close to.

It could be in May+ 1940, since the trees are in full leafe.

It is possible, that the photo shows a steel-work in the northern part of the Ruhrgebiet (Germany) with free visibility to the flat landscape of the Münsterland in the North of the Ruhrgebiet.

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Horst,

Thanx for your observations. You may be right about this being a steel plant in Germany. The large "coal pile" may also be a giant slag heap from the steel production process. I've seen something similar adjacent to a large steel plant in southern Colorado here in the USA.

If it is a steel plant someone ought to be able to recognize it.

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Well , Larry forgive me,

It could also be a flight, departed at Mannheim-Sandhofen, still climbing and watching the BASF chemical-works at Ludwigshafen-on-the-Rhine. Would make more sense. But still no building ore chimney identified.

Best regards

Horst Weber

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

No idea where it could be, but maybe you can contact the people wirting the following website:
http://www.anciens-aerodromes.com/

Seems to me that you should have some replies there.

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Hi,
My first idea it's "Toussus le noble " airfield in 78 department ( yvelines).
So difficult for me to found one pic from 1940 ...
Bsrg, Dan