Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Steve,
So, the 00702626 Genshagen built DB 605 AS-0 comes out as built in mid October 1943. This would seem quite reasonable for an important prototype test flying in mid December 1943, as shown in the official performance report.
My own information shows that DB had been testing prototypes of the DB 605 engines with the large DB 603 supercharger for over a year.
So, this important test flight was probably one of the first of the large supercharger Bf 109 types. The results were very favourable and obviously production of the AS and D powered 109's was encouraged.

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi everyone

Two more definite DB 605 A engine numbers from crashed parts, both from Genshagen 8-digit (007) production, and damaged from crashes in Germany. No other details, unfortunately.
First is a 25 tooth supercharger drive gear from engine 00704207.
The second is a waterpump, (edit, number corrected) 00707279.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thanks SM. These are two new ones for me.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thank you Steve. Sorry, I had to correct the coolant pump number, my bad!

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

It looks to me that when the engine number was written as "47881/001", the 47881 is the actual DB605 engine number and the 001 would be the assembly number (in this case, 001- the first DB605 assembled by Fiat).

47958/078
48115/235
48153/273
fits perfectly this increasing (chronological) sequence, 48153 being the 273rd DB605 by Fiat.

There are similar examples of such marking in the AS production.
00707733/819 AS0
00709343/1437 AS0
etc., where the number after the slash was also the assembly number of the rebuild AS, but it was not in sequence with the original engine number.

BTW, does anyone have any recorded AS engine numbers that do not start with 007xxxxx, or is it possible that for some reason only Genshagen produced engines were used for the production of AS engines (rebuilds)?

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Very nice post Tomislav,

Yes, I agree that I see some of these / numbers that align with serial numbers, as running totals.
Unfortunately, I do not have sufficient database to say much more about the AS numbers or production detail but, the AS engine info I gave earlier would definitely seem to have been new build with correlation of the build date with the engine Nr and the prototype test. That engine was DB 605 AS-0 00702626.
As an aside, I hope to be doing some archive research next year that will definitely include attempts to find more info on this.

Cheers

Chris

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Just a note for those interested in this, I see that the Daimler-Benz Einbaumappe, or installation data and details, was issued dated 14.2.44.
However, there are several pages in the document that are re-issues from the previous DB 605 AS dated 15.10.43. As it happens, very close to the production date of the engine listed above. I believe this just reflects the period when various decisions to go forward with the engine occurred.
There had been background engine (605 with 603 supercharger) prototype development for over a year before this 15.10.43 .
Another point is, that Daimler-Benz technical documentation does seem to fall behind the progress of engine development after Autumn '43.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi again Tomislav,
Going back into the production data/dates of DB 605 AS engines that you list, I estimate that 00707733/819 was built in the first week of June '44 and was the 819th production AS engine. At this point, the MW50 system was just being introduced.
Next, 00709343/1437 would have been built at the end of July '44 as the 1,437th production AS engine.
Now, this would appear to make approx 600 AS engines built out of 1,900 DB 605's built at Genshagen in the period, Jun+Jul '44, about 30% share of Genshagen 605 production in those two months .
If you remember the Dec '43 flight test engine 00702626 I mentioned, that was built mid Oct '43. The production till DB 605 AS0 00707733/819 was 5,107 engines, giving about 15% to AS production.
So, over this whole period, if production was steady, the rate of Genshagen DB 605 AS construction was about 20% of total Genshagen 605 production. To me, this would seem likely to fit with a separate production shop/line producing about 5 DB 605 AS engines per day, 7 days a week, out of the total average of 25 DB 605 engines a day for the whole period covered here, ie mid Oct '43 to end Jul '44, or just about 8.5 months.
But, reviewing the way it works out, I suspect that the production of the AS was at a lower rate from October '43 until maybe late spring '44 when it was increased, giving the changing percentage output.
Well, however the work was organised, it was a considerable production.
Additionally, other data for Messerschmitt Regensburg aircraft production lists 325 Bf 109 G-6AS and 1,373 G14-AS built between Jan '44 to Dec '44.

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Chris,
You did an amazing effort cross-referencing all this engine production data and sharing the results with all us here. Really a great job!

I have a few more Genshagen produced AS engines with the assembly number sufix that might help you,

00705160/106 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163422
00704581/346 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163795
00708525/1206 ASM
0070952x/1548 AS-0
00709538/1572 installed on Bf109 G-14/AS WNr.780887
00709767/1720 AS-0

Looking at the first two engines I mentioned, the second engine has a lower engine number than the first one and a higher assembly number. This could indicate that the first AS engines were "returns" from various units or repair facilities which were then upgraded to AS standard. Later assembly number are in line with the engine numbers, so it's possible that the later AS engines were taken already at the production line and finished as AS engines. I have too little data to make this a solid claim, but I think it's worth taking this thought into account.

Regarding the Fiat production - I found another engine
48771/891 installed on Bf109 G-8 WNr.200435

cheers,

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thank you Tomislav,

I had thought that I might not be able to make much of the 605AS production history but, it seems to be opening-up slowly!
Thank you so much for the latest details , I have very few details of AS production and only one engine with the extra production numbers after the 8-digit serial before your info. Strange how those production numbers are found. Now, my present theory is that these engines are all Genshagen new-build engines. The out-of numerical sequence of some engines with additional numbers is possibly due to an engine on production not reaching completion due to some shortcoming or problem such as damage (possibly from air-raids as well). The basic 8-digit 605 number would be generated right at the initial work on an engine but, I imagine the /???? AS production number was added as the basic 605A engine was completed as an AS. I can imagine the basic engines coming off the 605A line to have 605AS rear gearcase and the large supercharger fitted.
I don't see them building complete 605A engines and then modifying them to AS, nor do I imagine they built them on the same line with some of each. Also, I don't see them having a total 605AS build line. But I don't have confirmation, yet!
So, now that I have these extra numbers, I will build a chart of engines against production dates etc to see the patterns. There will be surprises but, it will be better than no idea, as we had before.
BTW, the BIOS production data that I have is only for "605" engines, no sub-variant id, no A/B/AS or D etc !. This makes it very difficult, but I hope to get better info in future!

Cheers

Chris

PS. I do realise that rebuilt engines would occur and that rebuild of 605A as 605AS would be possible. I just don't expect that would have happened as a plan until after summer '44. Again, maybe better info will come along!

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi everyone,

I have been able to study the relatively small number of DB 605AS engines with their engine serial numbers and the / assembly number ( /AS number) details highlighted by Tomislav. The basic background is that the first detailed flight test report of a Bf 109 G-AS that I have was on 22.12.43 with engine number 00702626. The engine serial corresponds to a build date of mid October '43 and the two month period before the flight test seems to probably represent the minimum that might be seen between engine build and flying at that time.
A point that can be seen on two of the engine data numbers is where the /AS number is out of sequence to the normal engine serial number. Here, I presume that the /AS number was allocated after construction of the complete AS engine. Because of this, it would happen that engines with delayed completion would be allocated a later /AS number than their serial number would suggest. So, an engine might have a later /AS number and where this appears out of sequence, it indicates that the engine was delayed before being completed as an AS and given a /AS number.
This does not really mean to apply to later possible "rebuilt" engines. That is a different question that I don't have info about, yet.
So, in particular, we see engine 00704581/346 which seems to be strange compared with 00705160/106, an engine number 579 later but with an /AS number 240 earlier. I think the situation here is that engine 04581 was delayed and it was completed as an AS engine about six weeks later.
Another possibility is errors in data. However, this does not seem to be a real issue and, the data is pretty solid for what I will propose.
So, my basic proposal is that the initial build of DB 605 AS-0 engines was a short run of 100 engines built in October '43. 00702626 would be an early engine in that block. The Flight test paper was compiled by Messerschmitt Augsberg on 22. 01. 44 and the positive performance improvement seems to have led to further engine/airframe production decisions.
The next batch of DB 605 AS-0 production started about end Feb '44, with engines at about 00705000. The first in the data is 00705160/106. Production at Genshagen was very high at this time, averaging about 900 DB 605 engines per month.
It is possible to calculate different average figures using different combinations of these statistics but, the average over the whole period from engine 00705160/106 to 00709767/1720 gives 4,607 DB605 engines produced, of which 1,614 were AS versions, which is 35% of production end Feb '44 till mid Aug '44.
The AS engine production continues after this point but, unfortunately I do not have the /AS numbers to help. However, I believe that this pretty much covers the very important stage of DB 605 AS engine production, up to late summer at Genshagen. DB 605 D versions were coming along at that stage.
Also, what happened with the later AS version production is another subject!
The data used is covered by the AS numbers given. There are later numbers up to 00711041, but without /AS number.
I hope this is useful to some!

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

My friend Pentti Manninen is still unable to log in to this site and has therefore asked me to forward the following:

"Regarding the DB 605 AS Baureiche 0 there is one interesting original documentation in the Finnish Air Force Museum archive collection.

With the FinnAF served two DB 605 AS engines WNr 007 0 7759 and the WNr 708251. The last mentioned was lost as German property and transferred to the Soviet Union, but WNr 007 0 7759 served FinnAF also post war time.

The WNr 007 0 7759 was assebled by Genshagen and installed into Bf 109 G-6AS WNr 163974 (FinnAF MT-463). This DB 605 AS was marked with overhaul time 100/2 on date 25.4.1944. The Lebenslaufakte WNr writings states also the following different styles: WNr 845 (00707759) and 00707759 (845), DB 605 AS Baureiche 0.

This DB 605 AS WNr 007 0 7759 Lebenslaufakte survives still with some dozens of plain DB 605 A-1 original documents. Some rarities are included as KWM 006 FIAT RA 1050 RC.58I Tifone:

540 48420
708 48588
874 48754
888 48768

and two more Tifone WNr of which WNr I do not have readily available.

Link to museum site and contact e-mails:

https://ilmavoimamuseo.fi/yhteystiedot/

Pentti Manninen"

Matti

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thank you very much Matti and also please thank Pentti!

The details of the AS engines are very good, and I thank you for the precise numbers. So, I think these two AS engines fit closely into the previous information. The first engine 00707759/845 fits both the production number sequence and the /AS number sequence. The other engine will undoubtedly have been 00708251 ( the /AS number would have been around 1050).
The date of 25.4.44 for the overhaul life recorded info seems slightly early on my engine build numbers (about a month) but, it depends when that was set down, I just don't know exactly how the administration of these details was done.
So, the overhaul life 100/2. The DB605A-0 (Zero series) had a similar life. This would mean "100 hours to major overhaul in two parts with part overhaul at 50 hours". This was an initial "life" for a zero series and would be further defined with experience.
So, good extra data to go with the previous AS info!

Now, the other Italian DB 605A data. Yes, very nice. It certainly looks like the Italian production is much greater than I have seen written before.

Many thanks!

Chris

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

The Finnish Air Force interpretation for the overhaul life 100/2 was different. According to them that meant "100 hours to major overhaul and only two cycles allowed (maximum 200 hours running time)". The engine 00707759 was in the aircraft 125h30' before removal. That was exactly 100 h plus 25 % extension due to good engine condition.

Matti

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Matti,

That is very interesting. I can understand if War emergencies caused engine overhaul delays, and different National operators could apply their own standards. However, I think that you wrote that the Genshagen production plant specified the "100/2" overhaul requirement?
The German data from Mercedes-Benz does not specify life-extensions, so that is a question? Beyond that, the Luftwaffe DB605A overhaul manual DLuftT. 3605A-B 0 und 1 is quite specific about the overhaul life and requirements of the DB 605 A, and the 0 (zero) series engines have a specific 100 hour Grunduberholung limit, with a Teiluberholung every 50 hours, and with no restriction on total number of rebuilds. So, I am interested if you have more data about this?

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Sorry to jump back in,

I can be very specific about the DB 605 A overhaul requirements because they are laid down in three different original German documents.
It is fair to say that "this is the DB 605 AS, not the DB 605 A" but, the documentation for the DB 605 AS says that, it is "the DB 605 A fitted with a DB 603 A supercharger". Actually, this is not precisely correct either.
Nonetheless, the original DB 605 AS documentation specifically lists the DB 605 A information as applicable, including the DB 605 AS parts list that is only an addendum to the DB 605 A parts list, to which it refers.
There is more information about this but, I am interested if you have a confirmation if the Finnish engine life was;
"100 hours to major overhaul and only two cycles allowed (maximum 200 hours running time)" ?
The German servicing cycle was much different to this.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

MM44643 engine ( DB601) is on MM9476.

Just about the stamping on MM44643 is another number: NC 0517


Steve, you know where I got this I trust.

Tony

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Great info Tony. From the C.202 I believe. That number is very close to some of those in the post #112 from Tanzebau. The additional stamping NC 0517 might have a relationship to the local production numbering.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

You are correct Schwarze-man.

Hope that number fits into the list properly.

Tony

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

The Finnish Air Force normally followed the OEM established maintenance schedule. They also used the basic information in D.Luft. 3605A – B, but in locally modified form.
In Finland for DB 605 there was a 110 hours limit for a partial overhaul and 220 hours limit for complete overhaul.

Because in Finland engine running time was calculated adding test runs and ground operations to the flight time we used a life-extension based on condition of the equipment (established on a case-by-case basis, maximum 25 % for engines and 10 % for airframes).

If in the Luftwaffe system only flight time was noted in the engine running time, the Finnish model would not differ much of the Luftwaffe system especially, when D.Luft. 3605A – B does not state an exact overhaul limit but is somewhat flexible: “Nach etwa 100 Betriebsstunden” for series 0 and “Nach etwa 200 Betriebsstunden” for series 1. How much “etwa” means in running hours?

From our point of view it seems that in D.Luft. 3605A – B specified limits are a general basic rule and in real life that was interpreted by different repair shops on a case-by-case basis depending on the engine series, modification status and condition.

We have over 220 original DB 605 A –engine Lebenslaufakten in our Air Force Museum and they give a good although limited view of the repair methodology of DB 605 in Germany.
- For example 25776, which in the beginning had 100/2 overhaul limit, after repair in Germany got a new limit 75/2. (Does this mean that this engine should be sent to repair shop for partial overhaul after only 37,5 hours in the aircraft?)
- 26887 was originally DB 605 B-1 and had in the beginning an overhaul limit 75/2. It was modified to A-1 in 22.01.1943 and probably got the normal overhaul limit 100/2
- a new 76136 got in 29.01.1942 50 hour running time, but after overhaul at 56 hours in 19.09.1943 it got allowable running time up to 253 hours (overhaul limit 200 hours)
- 76782 had got in the beginning an overhaul limit 100/2, but after overhaul at 56 hours running time in 02.12.1942 it got a new allowable running time up to 252 hours (overhaul limit 200 hours). Then after a new overhaul at 125 hours in 29.07.1944 it got a new allowable running time up to 321 hours (again overhaul limit 200 hours).

According to our interpretation 100/2 in those documents means two 100 hour periods, but if you have a document, which confirms other meaning, we’ll be happy to accept that.

Unfortunately we have not yet found any document covering the content of the partial overhaul. At least it cannot be done in the fighting unit, but the engine has to be sent to a repair shop. During the war we have not found in Finnish Bf 109 any engine removal due to partial overhaul requirement, but all removals have been due to a crash or engine damage. Some of these engines had after that a partial and some complete overhaul at the Luftwaffe or Finnish repair shop.

These Lebenslaufakten include some interesting engines.
- 78874 was originally built in November 1942 as DB 628 V19 and used only 4,5 hours before being sent to overhaul. During the overhaul it was modified to DB 605 A-1 standard and got a new allowable running time up to 204 hours (overhaul limit 200 hours). This engine was sent to Finland in February 1944
- 007 00003 was similar case
- 100079 was built in July 1942 as DB 605 X and seems to have been part of DB 610. Was used in He 177 A-3, Werk.-Nr. 355065, but sent for overhaul 12.02.1943 after only 8h55’. During overhaul it was modified to DB 605 A-1
- 21077 was similar case.

DB 605 engine family has been very interesting and it would deserve an exhaustive study.

Matti

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Excellent overview, Matti! Especially your last sentence is noteworthy. I would gladly co-operate with a team who sets this goal, to be materialised in a book.

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Yes, Thank you Matti for a good reply.
I can answer with the German information that I have in a few days, and I have many answers for you.
It is great that you have so much detail of the individual engines. I think this must be very rare. I don't know of any German individual DB 605 engine records with such detail, unless anyone has knowledge of this? I presume that the records of the Finnish Air Force engines are more complete?
The production of DB 605 engines from the DB 610 units was quite considerable, as there were a lot of them available. However, usually the rebuilt engine had a different firing order, inherited from the DB 610. The RH "605 W" component would also need rebuilding with a complete replacement rear gearcase etc as that was a complete mirror-image assembly when fitted as a DB 610 unit.
So, I will answer your points ASAP.

Cheers

Chris

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Matti,

Sorry to be slow responding. I will try to answer your points. First thing is that the German system is laid down in a fairly straightforward way but, the actual way that engine serviceability worked-out was more complicated. Also, I am not a German language specialist so, please forgive any mistakes!
The basis of my information is the interpretation of DB605 servicing for modern certification, using the original DB requirements.
Firstly, the overall servicing documentation was reasonably straightforward when the DB605 was first produced in 1941/42. The complicated engine had several levels of SERVICING documentation. Firstly, the D.(Luft) T. 3605 A-B, 0 u. 1 Handbuch covers the engine in moderate detail, including a servicing schedule. Here we find the engine has the 0 (zero) series and 1 (one) series. the 0 series are the early production that has a short servicing period. The 1 series is main production and has a servicing period about twice the 0 series.
Both series have the same daily, before flight and every 12.5 hour servicing.
Next, we find that the servicing at every 25 hours includes an oil change for the 0 series and a common, for both series, list of servicing items.
The schedule then introduces the concept of Teil-uberholung and Grund-uberholung (part-overhaul and full-overhaul) with the Grund-uberholung being nominal 100 hours for 0 series and 200 hours for 1 series. The Teil-uberholung being at half life and, the 1 series having an additional list of servicing at 50 hours ( where the 0 series has a Teil-uberholung).
Here, in the Handbuch, there are lists of work to be done, but the detail of the work is in a different document, the D.(Luft) T. 3605 A-B, 0 u. 1 Beiheft 1 Instandsetzungsvorscriften (Overhaul procedures).
I will continue in the next installment.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

The Instandsetzungsvorscriften (I will call this the Instand) is a large technical document that covers in detail the servicing and overhaul of the Motor. It describes the scope of the work that can be done "at the Front" (possibly unit based), the work for Teil-uberholung (at overhaul centres) and, the Grunduberholung (at the DB "Works"). Please note, the overhauling system may have differed in reality but the definition of the work and the level of the unit that could undertake the work is established.
The detail in the Instand is quite high. Interestingly, the scope of the Teiluberholung is quite considerable. Not surprisingly, the Grunduberholung includes all the Teiluberholung work and, gets the engine fully dismantled with the conrods removed, the crankshaft removed, the rear gearcase removed etc, and all dismantled for overhaul.
I do not wish to write all this out here, but, as an indication of the level of the Teiluberholung, it includes the cylinderblocks removed and pistons removed for examination.
So, the Instandsetzungsvorscriften is the complete "overhaul manual" that includes all normal DB servicing of the engine.
Some items, such as the Injection pump, are not covered to full dismantling or reconditioning because they are very specialised.
Overal, there is a lot of information in the Instand.
The next document is also very interesting, the Reparatur Anleitung DB 605 A-B and I will cover that next.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Incidentally, For anyone interested in the DB605, I strongly recommend buying the CD of DB605 documents from Udo Hafner Archiv. For 59Euro it includes a large amount of technical documents that you can print, or watch on PC.
The compilation includes the documents, Handbuch, Instand and Reparatur Anleitung. To note, just the Instand is 263 odd pages. All docs are clear and all in German.

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

The first two documents above were originally Daimler-Benz publications of the Motor Handbuch and the Instandsetzungsvorscriften. Later, these were slightly modified and issued as the service documents D. (Luft) T. 3605 etc.
This next document seems to be a Daimler-Benz manual that was designed for repair and overhaul centres. This is the Reparatur Anleitung DB 605 A-B (Repair guide).
The previous Instand covers work to overhaul the engines within the normal wear and usage. The Reparatur Anleitung DB 605 A-B is designed for repair of damages beyond the normal wear and tear but, it also includes modifications and updates of the engine (of which there are a considerable number) and notes about recording engine overhauls. The Reparatur Anleitung DB 605 A-B comes in developing versions as the engine is developed, I have two versions, and there would have been more. However, this is not the end of the technical documentation for the DB 605 A. In Summer 1942 the newly introduced DB 605 was restricted to reduced power due to engine failures. These failures were mainly due to combinations of Exhaust valve metal problems, poor Injection Nozzle spray pattern, Lubrication weakness due to low oil flow and thin-crown Pistons. Operational instructions were issued and limitations imposed, then lifted when remedial work was completed. These improvements are seen in the later issues of the Reparatur Anleitung DB 605 A-B.
Before we move-on to consider the DB 605 A-B engine life, it is worth considering the overall Repair/Servicing situation. Engines often suffered damage or malfunction within the normal Military use. Engines that required repair at overhaul facilities would be assessed for the need to incorporate various updates and servicing. There would be little point in just repairing an engine with a burn't exhaust valve if it was say, half-way to a Teiluberholung.
There will have been guidelines on the management of engine repair/overhaul but, there is no guidance on that or, on engine life extensions as a policy in any of these documents. edit. *However, as of 4/11/22 I have seen RLM docs with airframe and engine life extension information and this will be covered in due course.*
Next, I am going to cover the servicing-cycle examples.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Now, to illustrate a servicing record on the engine data record schildes that were used on some DB605 engines, I will first list the example given in the Reparatur Anleitung DB 605 A-B. The information is in a table that has ten columns , each of six spaces, in the upper section that is for the overhaul record. I will try list the info as blocks here in a similar layout.
Werke Nr 69010
T3552 G3652 T3651 G3652
...18.....78......12.......51..
..141...941...1241....542

So, those figures are four vertical columns of info, each column is one servicing event. I will leave this up for an hour and invite any quick replies, then I will go through the data.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

No takers? OK, fair enough this is not all straightforward.
So, first-off, the engine here, Werke Nr 69010 was a DB 601 E, you can tell from the engine database. Daimler-Benz have used this slightly earlier info but, it is still relevant as it had the same 200 hour Grunduberholung planned life with 100 hour Teiluberholung as the DB 605 A-1. However, this lifecycle was rarely achieved, as we can tell.
The horizontal lines of data are as follows:
Top line, is the type of overhaul Teil (T) or Grund (G) and the workshop code.
Middle line is the hours since previous overhaul.
Bottom line is the date of overhaul.
Therefore, this engine flew 18 hrs from new and had a Teiluberholung at Werke 3552 completed in Jan '41. The engine then flew 78 hrs before a Grunduberholung at Werke 3652 completed Sep '41. It then did just 12 hours before it's next T service, after which it managed 51 hours before a G service. The engine is now into it's next nominal 100 hours before another T service.
So, this information shows a great deal. Not least that the flight time between overhauls was very much lower than the nominal. This is not surprising, and it is likely that the reasons are damage, engine partial failure or management decisions to incorporate upgrades/modifications.
The lower section of the Schilde is for recording modifications and other work, recorded this time with: a code for the mod, the Werke and the date, again in a column of three blocks, eg 101-3652-842.
Overall, the "Life" of the Motor is consistently related to the Grunduberholung cycle, ie 100 hrs for a 0-series and 200 hrs for a 1-series, with a Teiluberholung at half that period. However, other combinations of engine build standard could limit these nominal life figures. For example, the previously noted problem with thin-crown pistons attracted a limit of 75 hrs and there were other combinations. It is interesting that the engine Schilde does not seem to carry the life limit for the next overhaul. It is presumed that information was recorded on the engine record.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi folks,

A new number: DB 605A/1 engine, WNr. 25 552 was installed on Bf 109G-2 WNr. 13497.


Cheers,

Gabor

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thanks for that Gabor!
Another part of the big story.

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Everyone,

Well, I have just been amazed to find some references to airframe and engine (Zelle und Motoren) lives in RLM documents!
Matti, this information is relavant to your words on life extensions.
I am trying to get a good interpretation of the info and will cover it soon.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi folks, another two from 1943:
Bf 109G4 WNr 16204 with DB 605 A-1 engine WNr 78 644
Bf 109 WNr 16266 with DB 605 A-1 engine WNr 007/01188



Cheers!

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Everyone,

I am posting some information here that is very generously available by member Charles Bavarois. You can view the five pages of RLM orders about aircraft and engine lives on his member page, in his album.
Thank you Charles!
The pages are documents from 1942 and there is a single page 257/42 that describes the administration of the declared life and the extension policy.
This is supported by four page document 487/42 that usefully lists the approved life of aircraft and engines. It is interesting that the later document in late '42 did not include original figures for the DB 605 A/B/C, these have been added as amendments. Also, the DB 605 amendments obviously cover very early engine build standards, with specific references to fuel injection timing and "old-type" pistons, with engine life varying between 50, 75 and 100 hours.
The documents should be read with careful understanding of the Partial and Full overhaul definitions, Teilüberholung and Grundüberholung.
As I have described earlier, the work for the engine servicing is listed in the engine handbook, the overhaul work is listed in the Instandsetzungsvorscriften and the details are further covered in the Reparatur Anleitung DB 605 A-B.
I have translated some of the guidance about engine life from the document 257/42, and this is it:

"Teilüberholungszeiten können im normalen Betreib für Zelle und Motor bis zu 20% überschritten Werden. Für die aufgeführten Flugmotorenmuster können unter Berücksichtigung der Betreibsickerheit und wenn der Einsatz es erfordert, die Richtwerte jeder Teilüberholung bis zu 50 v. H. überschritten werden.
Die Grundüberholungszeit, z B, bie BMW 132 A Richwert = 200/3 kann im Höchstfalle (200 + 50 v. H.) x 3 = 900 Stunden erreichen.
Ist die Summe der jeweils errichten TEILÜBERHOLNSZEITEN kleiner als der untere Richtwerte der Grundüberholungszeit, (BMW132A 200 x 3 = 600 stunden ) so kann wenn es der Motorbefund gestattet, ein weiterer Teilüberholungsabschnitt angehängt werden."
Translated:
"Partial overhaul times can be exceeded by up to 20% in normal operation for the cell and engine. For the aircraft engine types listed, the guide values of each partial overhaul may be exceeded by up to 50 %, taking into account the operating inertia and where the use so requires.
The basic overhaul time, e.g. with BMW 132 A benchmark = 200/3, can reach a maximum of (200 + 50 %) x 3 = 900 hours.
If the sum of the respective established PARTIAL OVERHAUL TIMES is less than the lower guideline values of the basic overhaul time, (BMW132A 200 x 3 = 600 hours), a further partial overhaul section can be added if the engine findings allow."

Now, the precise application of these orders seems complicated. Also, the later orders for the DB 605 life and overhaul will likely have been revised in later RLM orders. However, this is great information and I must thank Charles Bavarois again for putting this information on his album.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Everyone!

I am pleased to say that I have made further analysis of the early 5 digit DB 601 and DB 605 engine serial numbers. My details in reply #70 can change a little in that the blocks of engine numbers for the DB 601 A, the DB 601 N and the DB 601 E/F can be better grouped. The allocation of production plants is made by my correlation to production figures by date from the records and the excellent assessments by Tomislav. There are a few unusual engine serial numbers to be found in the data but these amount to only about 1% of the sample and are obvious errors or numbers that bear little relation to the overall data.
As I have previously noted, I have found difficulty with the total range of possible numbers in the 5 digit blocks, which far exceeds the engine production. This obviously implies that not all numbers were used, and presumably many block numbers were partly unused. So to give some help I am listing the blocks that are in the data.
Further difficulty arises with the DB 601 N engine that is not always annotated in the data. I have listed the blocks where this type is known but some will be in the DB 601 A blocks. The DB 601 E engines are quite easily identified with the Bf 109 F-3/4 and these are listed, although the sample numbers are small.


DB 601 A.

Marienfeld, Werk 90.
10xxx, 11xxx.

NIMO, Brunswick.
20xxx, 21xxx, 22xxx.

Henschel, Kassel.
30xxx, 31xxx.

Genshagen.
60xxx, 61xxx, 62xxx, 63xxx, 64xxx, 65xxx, 66xxx.


Known DB 601 N in Blocks.

NIMO, Brunswick.
21xxx, 22xxx.

Henschel, Kassel.
32xxx.

Genshagen.
66xxx, 67xxx.


DB 601 E.

Possibly Marienfeld, Werk 90.
14xxx.

NIMO, Brunswick.
24xxx, 25xxx.

Henschel, Kassel.
34xxx.

Genshagen.
68xxx, 69xxx, 70xxx, 71xxx.

The next post by me will carry-on with the 5 digit DB 605 A/B blocks.
Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

With the introduction into production of the DB 605 A/B engines in the spring of 1942, the 5 digit serial number system continued in use, effectively picking-up the numbering, although it is unclear quite how tightly the number sequence was maintained in the changeover of engine type. As described in my post #107, the 5-digit numbering continued for about one year, until the new 8-digit serial numbering was introduced in early 1943. In this first year of DB 605 production, approximately 11,000 DB 605 A/B engines were produced. The range of serial number blocks is around about 20,000 numbers available where there is evidence of numbers being used in any block of 1,000. Additionally, the main blocks with no engines listed total about another 33,000 unused numbers and are; 42xxx-49xxx, 52xxx-59xxx, 82xxx-89xxx and 91xxx-99xxx. Some of these gaps can be presumed to align with planned production and plants that failed to reach expectations or simple pre-planned number allocations for other possible production, as it is known that several other engine plants had their planned production types changed. The overall situation with these 5-digit engine numbers in this period is, that about 11,000 DB 605 A/B engines were built and numbered in about 20 known to be used number blocks and another 33 number blocks were not used at all.
For completeness here, I will mention that the early DB 601 numbers 12xxx, 13xxx and 15xxx-19xxx also have very few or no representation (in the data that I have).
The DB 605 high numbers blocks 50xxx and 100xxx are represented in reasonable numbers with losses in 1943, but I am unable to identify the production plant(s).


DB 605 A/B. Known production blocks with 5 Digit numbers. All, 1942 to early 1943 Production DB 605.

NIMO, Brunswick.
25xxx, 26xxx, 27xxx, 28xxx.

Henschel, Kassel.
35xxx, 36xxx, 37xxx.

Weiss, Budapest.
40xxx, 41xxx.

Not Known.
50xxx.

Genshagen.
73xxx, 76xxx, 77xxx, 78xxx, 79xxx, 80xxx, 81xxx.

Steyr-Daimler-Puch.
90xxx.

Not Known.
100xxx. This is an unusual 6 digit block but has representation.

Overall, these various posts cover the available data that I have. The pattern and details of the serial number allocations are clear to any researcher. There are some unknowns and a very few strange numbers in the data but, the information given is as accurate as I can make it.
I apologise for the information being presented in different sessions. However, the whole picture can be found by carefully reading the different entries. I hope that this information will help anyone wishing to study this subject in future.

Cheers for now,

Chris Starr (SM)

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi again,
I thought that I might thank all who post information in these pages. Please keep posting!
The most serious contribution was from Matti Salonen who posted an 800 or-so aircraft-loss database. That contribution was critical to me being able to make the basic analysis, with meaningful numbers. So, Great thanks Matti!
Matti has also been a great help with DB 605 AS information. Double thanks!
Tomislav Haramincic gave great information in post #78 and his later details of DB 605 AS production was very helpful. Thanks Tomislav!
All contributions have been very helpful and between us, I think this is a great compilation!
I am aware that there are still question marks about some other production at other plants and in other countries. This includes plants that are listed as DB aero engine and parts producers but not listed for assembling the DB 605. Some other countries that built the DB 605 had liability for providing engines back to Germany. The plants not fully attributed include FIAT in Turin, Avia in Prague, Ostmark in Vienna, Pommersche in Stettin, Weiss in Budapest and plants in Sweden.
The production statistics that I use are from the British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee (BIOS) Report Number 35 from original data at the Daimler-Benz Headquarters in Stuttgart. This information has excellent breakdown of production by plant and in monthly figures. However, there is no breakdown of engine sub-types within the main types so, all 601 are just 601, and all 605 are just 605. This makes some detective work difficult but, there is valuable information in the text as well.
I am still working on late DB 605 developments and this work on engine serial numbers and production has helped with that. I hope to produce more detail on late engine production in the future.
So, Thanks again for all contributions so far!

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

An interesting query about the identity of the first Bf 109E in Italian markings, where only the engine's constr. number is known: 11706.
Here is a link to a Facebook page, hopefully it works: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...92660284098794

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Gents
What subtype of DB 605 is it?
DB 605?/# 1014007/8335
Thanks

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hello ouidjat,
Unless I am mistaken, this is DBM-Genshagen-built DB 605 AS, MNr. 007/8335 with 1014 being its AS rebuild number. It was documented on Bf 109 G-6/R2/AS, WNr. 163447.
I have numerous other DB 605 AS engines that have the same format: ZZZXXX/XXXX, where the leading Zs are the AS rebuild numbers, and the XXX/XXXX portion is the actual Motornummer.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Steve,
in the mean time, our friend Nick Beale told me it was an ASM.
Since we are talking about 163447, report AI2(G) serial 253 says it was found at Beauvais-Nivillers (incorrectly written Beauvais-Nivelles). Just 2,5km of taxiway from Tillé.

Best regards,
Franck.