Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1067

215. This enlargement of the tail fin attached to the fuselage of "V303" shows an unusual feature. Its markings are that of a Regensburg-administered Baulos facility with its simple black hakenkreuz and smaller black werknummer ahead of the lowest point of the hakenkreuz. W.Nr. 170078 was another Messerschmitt-owned test frame at Lechfeld. According to Dan O'Connell, Production Log, (Classic, 2005), p. 57, BMW 003A turbojets were installed in this Me 262 A-1b W.Nr. 170078 "V078" in October 1944.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1068

216. In May and early June 1945 there were four other Me 262s lined up to the front right of the Whizzers' hangar. They were "V078", "9K+CH", white "19" and white-surround "26", furthest right. This view of FW 190 white "40" (with Karl Baur walking behind it thanks to the sharp eye of David E. Brown), shows at left, an upright "V078" with its nose intact but lacking its BMW turbojets. Also, it is uncamouflaged. Enlargement shows the rear bracket for the BMW 003 is still attached to the wing.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1069

217. By the time "V078" ended up behind the hangar, its nose assembly was gone. This photo shows it was missing its upper tail fin and rudder as well, the early type balkenkreuz was well worn and the entire fuselage was uncamouflaged. This aircraft and the W.Nr. 170072 found at Oberammergau may have been uncamouflaged because they were being used as static air frames.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1070

218. This photo shows Me 262 A-1a/Jabo "9K+CH" of 1./KG 51 lying derelict behind the Whizzers' hangar during the winter of 1945-46. According to Jan Horn, Das Flurschaden-Geschwader, (2010), p. 300, Fw. Karl-Albert Capitain of 1./KG 51 on 21 April 1945 flew an operational mission in an "9K+CH" from Leipheim at 10:17 but on his return he was directed to land at Lechfeld at 11:13 due to enemy activity at Leipheim. For some reason "9K+CH" was still at Lechfeld six days later and captured by American forces.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1071

219. Both "9K+CH" of 1./ KG 51 and white "19" of III./EJG 2 were part of the lineup of Me 262s in front of the Whizzers' hangar on the right side. At the bottom of p. 59 of Brown etal., Messerschmitt Me 262 Production and Arado Ar 234 Final Operations, (JaPo, 2012) is a photo of "V078", "9K+CH" and white "19" all upright in front of the hangar. In the photo posted here, two of them lie derelict among the trees behind the right side of the hangar, their nose wheels collapsed. White "19" shows the typical hakenkreuz of a later 500xxx series Me 262.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1072

220. There are ten derelict Me 262s in this picture of the rear of the Whizzers' hangar after the leaves have fallen in late 1945. The two furthest Me 262s are "9K+CH" and white "19".

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1073

221. As far as I know, white-surround "26" was the last of the Me 262s to be used for spare parts that has been photographed in front of the Whizzers' hangar at the far right at Lechfeld. This is reputedly a photo of "26" in its original configuration as a Me 262 A-1a/U3 after leaving the Flugzeugwerk Eger at Cheb, with a red 'S' on the fuselage under the tail plane warning pilots not to exceed 800 km/h. It has no unit markings and was one of the first Me 262s of the 500xxx series to be converted as a Behelfaufklärer. Although officially described as "Bildgeräte 2 x 50/30 ohne Waffen", probably at the behest of Oblt. Herward Braunegg, this is one of at least four recce Me 262s to have a single MK 108 30mm cannon installed with an oddly beveled muzzle. On page 73 of Brown etal., Messerschmitt Me 262 Production & Arado Ar 234 Final Operations, (JaPo, 2012), the identification is made by its unique camouflage pattern to subsequently be the white-surround "26" found at Lechfeld. On page 76, the accident in this photo is given as "a nosewheel collapse at Brandis on 1st April 1945". While the tops of the oblique Rb 50/30 cameras can be seen, the film canisters are missing.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1074

222. White-surround "26" is seen here as the Me 262 furthest to the right of the front of the Whizzers' hangar, pointing away from it. Beside it, with its tail now on the ground, is Me 262 A-1a white "19" of III./EJG 2 with the simple black hakenkreuz of the 500xxx series. "26" does not seem to have a nosewheel.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1075

223. This cropping of the tail from the previous photo has been tweaked to get a view of the werknummer on the tailfin below the tail plane. To my eye, the bottom part of the fifth numeral has a curlicue the same as the first numeral which would make it 500251. An ULTRA decrypt of 4 March 1945 has a '500251' being added to the strength of NAGr. 6 "from industry" (Brown etal.,, p. 29). On 2 March 1945 NAGr. 6 command ordered " aircraft will fly unarmed" which may explain why "26" was captured unarmed and "25" ("Connie") had a dark patch on the nose where the cannon once protruded.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1066

224. Like all the Me 262s used for spares at the Whizzers' hangar, "26" was towed behind the building but all the way to the opposite diagonal corner to rest near "V303" with its 170078 tailfin and amid all the other discarded A-1as.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

I confess I have second thoughts about photo 221 being the same one as shown/talked about under 222 - 224.

I can't see any sign of the digits 26 here meaning that could only have been done after repairs.
While the accident may not have been too severe as such it would have ment changing both engines,
since they must have ingested quite a bit of debris.

No idea how long such repairs would have taken, but with Germany in a state of more or less "free fall",
it wasn't done "in a couple of hours". I also doubt they had two stray engines just laying around....
With Brandis being captured on 17 April, it ment they had some two weeks to fix it. Possible?

If we then play with the thought the aircraft is WNr 500251 and assigned to NAGr 6 already in March it means
no digits were added up to its accident at Brandis 1 April but more or less done immediately after repairs.
Sounds odd since the further towards the collapse we get the less time staff would have had for such "trivia".

Is the exact date known when '26' (or WNr 500251) was captured at Lechfeldt? All I could get was early
May...

So convince me please.... :)
Cheers
Stig

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1076

Hi Stig,

To my eye, the camouflage pattern is the same. Off hand I do not know which day the Americans took Lechfeld but according to Wolfgang Samuels, American Raiders, p. 176, the 56th Air Disarmament Squadron occupied their building on 4 May 1945.

Jim

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Thanks Jim

Being no specialist of anything really, and certainly not the 262 I am still not convinced that simply referring
to the camouflage pattern will do the trick.

Too much in my book which just don't add up.
Perhaps I am just over-suspicious.....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1077

225. I happened to come across a video, The History of Messerschmitt-Me109,Me110,Me210,Me163,Me262 that at 35.28 has a segment with good resolution showing Me 262 A-2a W.Nr. 130179 black "F" having its compass calibrated while standing on a wooden turn table. This is one of the screenshots from that video.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1078

226. On 28 June 1944 Oblt. Herward Braunegg transferred W.Nr. 130179 from Kitzingen to Lechfeld between 11.40 and 12.05 hours, delivering it to I./KG 51 where it became black "F" for Kommando Schenck. (Jan Horn, Das Flurschaden-Geschwader, p. 128)


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1079

227. On 11 July 1944, Ltn. Wilhelm Batel, TO of I./KG 51, flew a Bombenwurf-Übungsflug from Lechfeld between 15:32 and 15:54. On landing, he reported "that the nose gear kept lowering during attempts to raise it following take-off, wheel covers that did not fit and prevented proper closure, torn welding on the wings, non-secured fuel lines, loose rivets, too much slack in the control column, loose ailerons, incorrectly balanced elevators, missing ball bearings in the rudder assembly, and a loosely supported undercarriage." (O'Connell, p. 37)

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1080

228. In this photo, the single bomb rack attached to early A-2as is seen. It consisted of an ETC-503 rack taken from FW 190s and attached to a wooden base custom-made to fit the underside of an Me 262. While Horn labels W.Nr. 130179 as a "Me 262 A-1a", I believe Dan O'Connell is correct in naming it an "A-2a". Note that like all of the 130xxx series it has no gun rectangles.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1081

229. To aid with bomb aiming, diagonal lines were drawn on the canopies of early models with what was presumed to be the correct dive bombing attitude. On 19 July 1944, W.Nr. 130179 was destroyed during a U.S. bombing raid on Lechfeld.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1082

230. This screenshot shows Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 500071 white "3" of 9./JG 7 coming in to land when it was flight tested by the Swiss in late spring 1945. It bears the same camouflage and markings as when it arrived on 25 April 1945 at 08:46 hours at Zürich-Dubendorf. Note what appears to be digital distortion of the upper part of the balkenkreuz.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1083

231. After training with III./EJG 2 at Lechfeld in early April 1945, Fahnrich Hans-Guido Mütke of 9./JG 7, taking off from Furstenfeldbruck [later captured on 29 April] to attack B-26s, got 'lost' and was forced to land at Dubensdorf due to fuel starvation. He purportedly had 80 litres of J2 left, with 35 litres burnt per minute.
This photo shows that the Swiss ground crew had read the warning "Achtung! Nicht am Bugard schleppen ('Do not tow by the nose wheel') written on the nose wheel door. They were basically following the proper towing procedure attaching towing cables to the main landing gear while steering the nose wheel.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1084

232. The tail of white "3" showed the typical markings of a Baulos-Aufteilung 500xxx series aircraft: the simple black hakenkreuz and the small black werknummer well ahead of the lowest point of the hakenkreuz. Note the lack of the "Running Wolf" wappen on the nose but the red/blue RVT bands with the yellow vertical stripe signifying the III. Gruppe of JG 7.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1085

233. However, the first 500xxx werknummer series was different from those that came later. In this picture, white gun rectangles are seen under the cannon access hatch that are missing in later series. As well, the FuG 16Z access fairing over the starboard white balkenkreuz is clearly a mismatched replacement seen in #230. A huge red dot can be seen on the engine nacelle.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1086

234. This is a colour photo of W.Nr 500071 dating from 1953. Note that the white gun rectangles are missing, perhaps suggesting the Swiss have removed the MK 108s. Also note the "digital distortion" of the balkenkreuz.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Thanks Jim

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

My pleasure, Dan. There's more to come.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1087

235. In this photo, American GIs examine a strange jet that had belly-landed at the occupied German airfield of Weimar-Nohra on 8 May 1945.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1088

236. By January 1945, the concept of an acoustic 'radar' known as Baldrian had been developed far enough to test hooking it up to a K 22 automatic pilot that could theoretically follow an enemy aircraft at night. This combination was known as Vesuv.
To calibrate Vesuv, the Lotfe bombsight was removed from the Me 262 A-2/U2 W.Nr. 110555 V11 "V555" that in December 1944 had been fitted with the Lotfe Kanzel II which allowed a bombardier to lie prone in the nose of an Me 262. In its place, the Baldrian system was installed with twin extendable diodes sticking out from the sides of the nose.
In this photo, civilian technicians from the Elektrophysik company are testing the Vesuv system. Note that "555" has not yet been added to the nosewheel door nor the kanzel painted.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1089

237. A view of "V555" taking of from Lechfeld, possibly on 10 February 1945 with Stabsing. Erberst in the kanzel and piloted by Flugkapitän Esche for a daylight calibration test against a target aircraft. (O'Connell, p. 38)

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1090

238. On 25 April 1945, Ofw.Karl Nitschke of the Lechfeld detachment of 1.(F)/100 took off on an operation in an Ar 234B and landed at Riem as American troops approached. It is likely that Oblt. Willi Benz of the same unit at the same time flew "V555" out to Prag via Horsching to be used for visual recce missions. On 8 May 1945, Benz was one of the last pilots to leave Saaz/Zatec at 19:55 hours with two fellow 1.(F)/100 pilots, Nitschke and a Ofw. Obroth, both crammed into the kanzel. At 20:25 hours, Benz made a skillful belly-landing at Weimar-Nohra.
Note that the roof hatch of the kanzel is ajar and the forward diodes are missing. Likely Baldrian was abandoned by March 1945 with the immanent introduction of the FuG 240 centimetric airborne radar.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1091

239. This is a view of the cramped nose area of "V555".

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1092

240. This is a screenshot of the tail of Me 262 A-1a 170061 White "11" of EKdo. 262 taken in the hot summer of 1944. A picture of the entire aircraft can be found on page 51 of O'Connell, Me 262 Production Log, (Classic, 2005), which states that white "11" also served with Kdo. Nowotny and III./EJG 2 until it was renumbered white "4".
This image shows the tail with the early grey RLM 74 and RLM 75 mottles over the blue white RLM 76 base coat as well as the clear plastic tail light at the base of the rudder.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1093

241. As W.Nr. 170306 served as III./EJG 2's white "4" until its 7 January 1945 accident, it is probable that W.Nr 170061 did not become "4" until after that date. In the meantime 170061 became one of at least seven Me 262s to receive a new experimental tail unit that included thin shaped plywood fin and tailplane and a redesigned rudder. These tail units were at first recognizable by their "kaulquappe" pattern, an inconsistent stencil of dark 'tadpoles' on a white RLM 21 base.
This screenshot comes from a well known film of III./EJG 2 aircraft at Lechfeld in January or even possibly February 1945. Note that this and other pictures of the line-up show white "4" has both forward cowlings on the nacelles in bare metal.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1094

242. The following is my poor translation of the caption to this photograph found on page 132 of Manfred Jurleit's Strahljäger Me 262 im Einsatz, (1995) :
"Due to engine damage, this 'White 4' of II./JG 7 had to make an emergency landing at Perleberg on 15 April 1945. Obviously, it is a machine of III./EJG 2 which at this time had given its aircraft to those pilots of that unit who were fully trained."
Note that the starboard engine has been replaced with one that had a camouflaged cowling.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1095

243. "The 'White 4' is made serviceable again.", Jurleit, p. 133.
In this photo, the pattern of the original port engine nacelle is unique. 1. The bare metal cowling, 2. the splinter dark upper camo's rear edge sloping in a straight line under the wing, 3. a slightly dark shade of blue white immediately under the wing, 4. a whiter bottom nacelle panel, 5. a darkened first foot hold on the bottom panel, 6. the beginning of oil seepage along the panel seam and 7. the lack of a red ring on the side of the nacelle.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1096

244. This photo of the starboard side of W.Nr. 170061 white "4" was taken after the starboard engine was replaced by one with a camouflaged cowling. Note the dark tape added over the tail joint and the red ring on the side of the nacelle.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1097

245. If Jurleit was correct, II./JG 7 must have received orders to transfer all of its Me 262s to JV 44 at München-Reim as W.Nr. 170061 is listed as being with JV 44 there on 26 April 1945. Some sources, according to O'Connell p. 51, say that W.Nr. 170061 may be one of the aircraft captured at Innsbruck-Hotting. The camo pattern and lack of red ring on the port engine nacelle in this screenshot look suspiciously akin to that seen in #242 and #243 above.
If this white "4" is W.Nr. 170061, then the 'kaulquappe' rudder assembly had been replaced by a late-production example with a tail-light bulb. Also, it has been repainted in JV 44 camo and the "4" moved to the rear fuselage as per fighter units.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

This story goes back (at least) to Profile Publications No. 130, The Messerschmitt Me 262 by J. Richard Smith (no date but "Price Two Shillings" so pre-1971).

On page 3 is Karoband No. 243, credited "Rumler via Hans Obert". The caption reads:

An Me 262 A-1a of Jagdgeschwader 7, photographed at Perleberg on 15th April 1945. The NCO pilot landed at the airfield to refuel after an interception sortie, not having enough left in his tanks to take him back to his home base at Parchim. One of his engines failed on take-off from Perleberg; icy slush had collected in the nacelle during his stopover. Both pilot and aircraft survived this mishap, and an engine change was carried out in about three hours. The mechanic on the right wearing a peaked field-cap is Herr Rumler, to whom we are grateful for making this photograph available.

So we have a veteran’s memory attached to a photograph but do we have any corroboration at all for that story? Unless I’m missing some critical setail, it seems far more likely that the photo was taken at the same time as the line up in Karoband No. 240. On 15 April, the US 8th Air Force attacked the German “fortress” of Royan in France although Marauders did raid multiple targets in Bavaria (a long way from Parchim and Perleberg) and III./EJG 2 put up six Me 262s in response. The Germans did log nine individual reconnaissance incursions by Allied aircraft over Northern Germany but the situation report mentions no jet operations there.

Note: The German sitreps are in Bundesarchiv RL 2-II/389 and RL 2-II/391 (both files are downloadable).

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Thank you, Nick, for the source of Jurleit's information, but especially for the research into possible actions near Perleberg on 15 April. The dates for the photos of W.Nr. 170061 white "4" are indeed problematic "without corroboration".

Jim

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Quite an interesting study of 170061. Very well done!

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

May I add add a complication in the person of Ofw. Fritz Oldenstädt, an Me 262 pilot of NAG 6? According to his Flugbuch, on 14 April 1945 he ferried “4” from Perleberg to Kaltenkirchen, so there had been an Me 262 marked "4" at Perleberg the day before Rumler's recalled incident, just not the one in the photo.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Thanks again, Nick. I note that in his flugbuch Oldenstädt counts this flight as his 180th operation.

Jim

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

If a pilot encounters enemy aircraft during a ferry flight that try to intercept him, I think they would consider it a Feindflug (operational flight).

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

I agree. The front lines were within about 15 km of Perleberg on 14 April.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1098

243. Not all Me 262s with intermediate rudders had plywood tails and kaulquappe patterns.
This angled photo was taken by a GI at Kitzingen probably about 10 April 1945. The Me 262 was broken in half in a crash landing and the Death's Head wappen and "B3" in front of the Balkenkreuz indicate it was from KG(J) 54.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1099

244. This view shows the tail being straightened out to show its proper configuration. The kennzeichen of "HL" identifies it as W.Nr. 110943 "B3+HL" of 3./KG(J) 54 that suffered 65% damage on 9 March 1945, (O'Connell. p. 118) and was left in a field at Kitzingen. Note the shattered upper tail and its rivetting. So far I have not seen a werknummer.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1100

245. Here the straightened out "B3+HL"'s camo pattern can be seen with its curiously uncamouflaged white RLM 21 tail fin and red (?) rudder.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1101

246. In this photo, it is unfortunate that the lower part of the rudder has been crumpled. The simple black hakenkreuz without a werknummer on either side is unusual for a 110xxx series Me 262 and probably indicates a replacement upper fin, rudder and tail plane.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1102

247. I do not know when or where this photo was taken nor the identity of the Me 262, but the similarity of the tail fin and rudder is unlikely a coincidence. The shape of the rudder is different from the earliest model, almost like the experimental plywood design. However, the dents and stresses caused by the rivets indicate that it was made from metal. The shape and shade of the rudder is akin to that of W.Nr. 111685.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1103

248. Despite the missing bomb racks, the faired-over upper gun ports and single white gun rectangle identify this Me 262 as an A-2. The extendable metal tripod with the ring on top is noteworthy as it usually served as a base for a block and tackle used for lifting heavy objects. This Me 262 was found by American troops abandoned on the south shore of Lake Starnberg near Seehaupt.
Further information is found in David E. Brown's post #259 of http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...=45190&page=26


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1104

249. This photo shows severe damage at the base of the fin. Note that not only is the nosewheel missing but also the lower strut. Also the starboard Jumo 004 is missing its forward parts and engine cowl. Curiously the national markings seem to have been sprayed over but in this photo look to be a simple black hakenkreuz and a simple black balkenkreuz, perhaps from the 11095x series.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1105

250. This photo shows that the block and tackle has been used to raise the Me 262 onto wood trestles and to lower the detached port engine onto a wooden pallet. Note the heavy wooden steps up to the starboard wing. It seems that a lot of effort went into it.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1106

251. This is a good view of American servicemen with the Me 262 A-2 atop its wooden base in the summer of 1945. Note the cosmetic covering of the base of the fin and the red "J" visible on the nosewheel door.

Under pure speculation: from Jan Horn's Das Flurschaden Geschwader..., page 302:
"Die Stärkemeldung der II./KG 51 vom 23. April 1945 um 08:30 Uhr gibt an:
'Flugzeuge gesamt: 1 (Werk-Nr. 110961)'".

See Dan O'Connell, Production Log, page 119, for a note on the missing bomb racks of 110961.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Jim,

Photo 247 in Post 145 was taken behind the main hanger at Lechfeld looking east-southeast. The port wing of the aircraft that the soldier is sitting on is “9K+we.CH” of 1./KG 51, and the machine in the proximal background is “White 19”, WNr.500??? of III./EJG 2 (the image is very washed out). If you look in the top right corner you will just see that tail of “White 26” WNr.500221? of III./EJG 2.

Best,

David

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

David,

This information is much appreciated. I'll have to go back and look at other pictures of "White 19".

Thank you,

Jim

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Hi Jim,

Pleased to assist. There is another photo in this series looking back at the cockpit and I will post later.

Regarding “White 19”, certainly it is a 500xxx series kite, but it’s Werknummer remains elusive. If Obertraubling had painted this on the starboard fin of this and most other machines from this series it would allow us to identify lots of aircraft (and also in a more opaque paint)!

Best,

David

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Hi Jim,

PM me with your email and I'll send you the image described above (expired EBay auction), and you can tweak it if desired and shared here.

Best,

David

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Me 262 A-1a. Fw. Heinz Lohmann made a 15 minute ferry flight in this A-1a from Obertraubling to Neuburg at 08:43 on 15 February 1945.

David, is there proof that White 26 is 500221? My complete history of it is the sentence above. Thank you, Dan

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Dan,

I have this Werknummer in my notes. Will have to go back and get the details for you.

David

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Thank you, David. These are some of those photos and my conclusions:


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1115

252. In this photo, both "9K+CH", in foreground, and "white 19", at right, can be seen when they were in front of the Whizzers' hangar. Note the dark overall camo on the tail of "white 19" and its very black hakenkreuz.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1116

253. In this photo, both Me 262s have been dragged behind the hangar and are the furthest to be seen. Even at a distance from the others in this photo the dark tail of "white 19" is apparent.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1117

254. Another view of the two Me 262s in isolation behind the hangar.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1118

255. In this and a similar photo, a GI can be seen in the cockpit of "9K+CH" behind the hangar. There are no other Me 262s behind him. Note the bright sunlight on the aircraft and road.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1119

256. This is the same photo as #247. I believe David is correct. To my eye it is the same GI sitting on the wing of "9K+CH" and the washed-out tail fin and hakenkreuz of "white 19" is due to the glare of the sun. The rudder alone shows the true colour of the plane's camouflage. Photographs can be deceiving.

Therefore, thanks to David, I now realize that the camo pattern and white fin on W.Nr 110943, "B3+HL", likely have no relation to those of "white 19".

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1120

257. On 26 April 1945, W.Nr. 500226 was listed as being present at München-Riem, having been handed over from "Industrie" at Memmingen. By the end of April it was probably with 1/JG 7 at Prag-Ruzin before moving to Saaz/Zatec by 7 May. On 8 May 1945, Oblt. Walter Bohatsch commandeered the now "white 4" of 1./JG 7, as his own Me 262 was out of service, and headed for Fassberg. Short of fuel, he landed at the American-held airfield of Dedelstorf, about 67 km. north of Braunschweig.
Note the lack of the JG 7 wappen, perhaps indicating a hurried transformation. The lack of a vertical stripe between the blue/red RVT bands indicate it is from I. Gruppe. Again, a cable has been used to drag it backwards damaging the base of the tail fin.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1121

258. This is another view of the starboard side indicating a hurried replacement of the rudder and parts of the starboard engine nacelle. Note the warnings to "Keep off".


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259. This view of the port side of "white 4" shows that the butting edge between the RVT bands was purposely placed over the joint of the rear fuselage with the tail component. Because of inexact manufacturing, a white cooloured putty was used to caulk the gap and then an adhesive tape was used to seal the putty. In this photo, the tape can clearly be seen under the RVT bands.

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260. This is a later view of the port side. At first glance, this seems to be an aircraft of the III.Gruppe due to a vertical bar in the RVT bands, but a closer look shows that the tape has easily been peeled to the side exposing the light coloured putty. Note that the werknummer can just be made out.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Thanks for the nice photos.
Should the location read Dedelstorf?

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Hi Andy,

Thanks for catching that. Fat fingers. I'll correct it.

Jim

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

Nice photos.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1124

261. This was probably one of the earliest photo-recce Me 262 A-5s produced. According to Brown etal., Messerschmitt Me 262 Production & Arado Ar 234 Final Operations, (JaPo, 2021), page 11: "It is most probably W.Nr 110513 as evidenced by the werknummer on the starboard fin ....". If so, Dan O'Connell, Production Log, page 83, has test-pilot Uffz. Heinz Ordelheide making test flights at Schwabisch-Hall on 18 and 22 November 1944. It is likely that this was one of the aircraft of Erprobungskommando Braunegg (Panther) that, like EKdo. 262, wore a yellow band behind the cockpit. Although the balkenkreuz at first seems to have a black centre, this may be due to the two-tone dark upper camouflage akin to that of the photo-recce Ar 234s of Versuchsverband der OKL which was also responsible for EKdo. Panther. Also note what appears to be the later addition of darer camo along the demarcation lines of the fuselage and nacelles. It has one of the single MK 108 cannon muzzles as requested by Oblt. Herward Braunegg. This unit was stationed at Schwabisch-Hall from 30 November 1944 until about 8 February 1945, becoming 2./NAG 6.

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1125

262. This screenshot shows the placement of the port Rb 50/30 camera with its film canister on top, too large to close a standard gun access hatch. A bulged fairing had to be fitted to accommodate the canister. The placement of the cameras in lieu of the four MK 108 cannon minimized the change in the centre of gravity.


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263. This early version "A5" had an experimental bulge sharply tapering to the leading edge of the hatch, unlike the "A-1a/U3" that had streamlined bulges on the fuselage in front of and behind the hatch edges. This aircraft, as can be seen, did have the rear fairing on the fuselage.


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264. This modification allowed the film canister to be easily removed and replaced.


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265. This screenshot shows "white 3" being towed away using a tracked SD. Kfz. Z. Kettenrad with a rigid tow bar attached to the nose wheel but also stress cables attached to the main landing gear struts to prevent nose wheel collapse.