Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Hi,

So, since I'm a narrow-minded engineer who use his mathematical/physics training and long life experience, i.e. logic, and since the British weren't able to find any useful remains of this craft ...
I wonder how Dr. Prien has been able to write "Braune" if not thanks to a LW report???
Or, Marx himself told to British his plane was coded "Braune 3" but, of course, he said "Gelbe" and that narrow-minded British reporter understood "Brown"!
Or something like that ... Or he wrote nothing, doesn't matter.

I definitively have a lack of imagination. And Dr. Prien, a lot.

When I started this thread, I was just talking about one machine. Pointing that it was impossible for this number to be red, with good reasons, and that most probably, the code number was Brown (or Brown-red, or red-brown or very dark yellow with a Brown tendency, but not yellow). Not that RLM-I-don't-know-what which use to be the colour chart reference for yellow... BREF Brown like on many other machines.

Clint have proposed a good deal: show us LW report extracts ... But no, back on ErprGr. 210 machines. Don't touch to ErprGr. 210 machine code numbers!

I frankly have been stupefied by "since it was written, it was fact", when the only fact I saw was ... it was written. Like RLM 83 to make short.

But the fact - for me- needs to be found outside, in the real life. I.e. ground personal using Brown colours and that fact did permit to the LW secretary to write Braune about this loss ... and to Dr. Prien to write "Braune 3" in his book ... and Braune 1, 11 and 6 BUT Gelbe 12 for Spreitzer plane.

Fortunately for us there was a LW secretary - the same I presume from 8/7/1940 to 29/10/1940 - who was able to make the difference between Braun and Gelbe.

Best regards
(and please back to LW report extract if you please) I'll really appreciate.

Franck.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Hi Clint,

The two NA AIR 40/45 reports were quoted verbatim, although I added the bit in square brackets [7./J.G. 26] after WNr. 210 086.

The German loss list entries, from the IWM microfilm, had the codes typed exactly as I quoted them.

I looked through 650-odd pages, so unfortunately don’t have the time to go back through and find the relevant pages, copy and crop them, and post them here. Hopefully someone else is able to. Instead, I've got to do a bit of editing of our Kurt Bühligen article, which is almost finished (at last!).

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Andrew, thanks for confirming your verbatim recording of the loss reports. I have no reason to disbelieve anything you or anyone has said with regard to the usage of 'Brown' numerals in these reports but therein is the problem. We have many respected historians on either side of this discussion that for whatever reason have 110% faith in what they trust and believe as being historical fact. I find it strange then that there are still arguments as to whether certain units used brown or even in some cases that brown was even used at all by any units in the Luftwaffe. I appreciate that like yourself, time is stopping many researchers from sifting through the various loss records, 'again' to find these reports that state the use of Brown. After all, these loss reports are old news really in the serious Luftwaffe research circles. These original reports, some of which are probably difficult to read were probably transcribed into a more accessible format by some of these guys even before I was born. So they have no real need to ever go back to them in their original paper or Microfiche form. Since then though details could have been added with the additional help of photos or new published understandings, findings, or opinions. I just find it bizarre that these 'brown' discussions are still continuing to this day and age. So lets go back to basics and see what the Germans at the time were actually recording these numerals as? Surely they would have got it right? You know how it is Andrew, with all due respect to all researchers who have had an input into these discussions over the years. The only irrefutable evidence that has any chance of finally getting some sort of universal agreement as to what colour was used for some of these units is the actual untouched, pure, original, period documents presented in public for all parties to see right in front of them.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Clint,

I understand nothing ... :) Can you make short and clear please? Too much understatements I guess.
...
Roughly, I'm not asking nothing to Andrew, he has been able to give quotes which can be verified by others and, why not, be put here.

But to Mr Steimmer and to Mr. Prien? Maybe Andreas??

Regards, Franck.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Franck, I agree with everything you say with regards to Andrews comments but for this to stand up we need the documents. Documents cannot be argued against in the future. That way this topic and the one over on LEMB can stand as future reference to show exactly what units used Brown. :)

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

<font face="&quot">OK, I'm going to conclude now with regard to the matter of 3./Erpr. Gr. 210, and show that what Gerhard Stemmer stated as fact is not grounded in fact at all. I regret having to do this, and that it has gone this far, but for the sake of historical accuracy, and to show that I was not making anything up when I said there was nothing recorded in the Nam Vers for both Marx & Hintze of 3./210, it has to be done. My apologies to the thread-starter for apparently de-railing the thread to some degree, but in the interest of providing information from primary source documents, it has to be done.

Forgive the long post, but what follows is a resume of what has gone before regarding 3./210, and is a much easier point of reference than scrolling through several pages for readers of this post.

Here is what has gone before (my post #11 refers to what occurred on the other forum):
My post #11:
“…Fact: Gerhard Stemmer listed a number of 109 units that used brown numerals, among them 3./Erpr, Gr. 210;
Fact: I asked where the information came from;
Fact: He said it was from GQM and NVM;
All the above was last Wednesday 15th January.
Fact: I posted that I had seen the GQMs from 1940 -1944, and I had a complete set of the Erprobungsgruppe 210 Namentliche Verlustmeldungen, and that brown numerals had never been mentioned in them. (Additional fact: had they been mentioned, I would have recorded the fact in my book on Erprobungsgruppe 210, 'Bombsights Over England').
Fact: Up to this morning, Gerhard Stemmer has not provided any further eveidence of his assertion that brown numerals were confirmed by either the GQM of NVM.

You know why, Chris? Because brown is not mentioned in the Nam Vers of either Lt. Horst Marx (PoW 15/8/40) nor Oblt. Otto Hintze (PoW 29/10/40).

Sorry if the truth hurts, Chris. Stick to historical facts, and not creeping to your heroes and believing everything they say…”

My post #15:
“…But I do know this: there was no entry on the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen for both Lt. Horst Marx and Oblt. Otto Hintze showing they flew 'Brown 3' and 'Brown 6' respectively…”

ChrisS's post #21:
"...Yes Franck, Jim P has very kindly uploaded original copied documents over at LEMB..."

ChrisS’s post #24:
“…Please also include these units from Gerhard's excel spread sheet list all of which he has extrapolated from the same original documents as Jim.
[…]
3./ErprGr 210
[…]

ChrisS’s post #30:
“…I understand you Clint, but I have no reason to disbelieve Gerhard, just the opposite in fact…”

Right, here are scans of copies of the Nam Vers for Marx & Hintze. Take a look at them both. Do you see aircraft type, numeral, and colour of numeral? No. Not at all.

Marx
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6935/9bjq.th.jpg http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/3637/oirg.th.jpg

Hintze
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2339/4ep0.th.jpg http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7213/jew9.th.jpg

There is also no mention of brown numerals in GQM reports of these two losses.

Unfortunately, Gerhard Stemmer, for whatever reason, has lied in saying he got the information about brown numerals for 3./210 from the Nam Vers and GQM reports. The information he claims to have garnered from them is not there.

Unfortunately, ChrisS in his post #24, talks of Gerhard's excel spread sheet entries (which list 3./210), which information he claims is from the same original documents as Jim (James P). The 'original copied documents' ChrisS mentions in his post #21 and references back to LEMB are entries from Nam Vers. So, ChrisS is adding his support to the contention that Nam Vers said 'brown' for 3./210. That is 100% wrong.

So, look at the copies of the Nam Vers I have put up in this post, and make your own minds up. Brown mentioned on them, or not...

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

I note it is over 3 days now since I posted up copies of the Nam Vers for Marx and Hintze.

I note that ChrisS had made no further comment concerning the original documentation that I posted up.

I believe a reasonable time has elapsed for further comment(s) to be posted.

The legal tenet of 'He who asserts must prove' applies equally to serious historical research as it does to legal matters. In the instance in which I have commented on in this thread, I have simply applied that tenet. It would appear that ChrisS has not applied the same stringent test to the issue upon which we have debated. I am satisfied in my mind that I have provided the proof to back up my assertion, which disproves his points. I rest my case...

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Give it a rest John, as I said on LEMB I have to work and have no time for further debate... OK if you say so no brown in your pet unit... lets all move on.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Hi,

I got photos of "11" and "13" of 3./Erp.Gr.210 and the color of "11" and "13" is very dark in comparison to fuel "87" triangle. For me it might be brown.

Regards

Robert

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Ah, you finally surface again, not with any reasoned response to my last two posts, but to tell me what to do. Do you think I take orders from you...?

And you had plenty of time for debate prior to the posting of the Nam Ver copies, particularly on LEMB. The word hypocrite springs to mind with regard to you.

'Pet unit' again eh Chris? Condescension knows no bounds with you. And you talk of 'pets'...? Do me a favour, go back to LEMB and read how you championed one of your 'pets' over there.