Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

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Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

Most, if not all of the USAF Historical Studies can be downloaded from their website. The link is http://www.afhra.af.mil/studies/numb...calstudies.asp

Ruy posted a sticky thread in the Allied forum for the studies, but that link no longer works.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson (Post 212434)

...An added problem with the Pe-8 is that the production aircraft flew with an engine, the Mikulin AM-35A, which was not the originally intended powerplant. It is possible that the altitude of 9,300 m was reached by an early TB-7 with a fifth engine in the central fuselage, acting as a supercharger for the other engines. The concept was similar to that later used by the Hs 130E.

But it isn't. ANT-42 prototype's service ceiling was 11,250 m. The figure I gave was that of the AM-35A powered Pe-8.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson (Post 212434)

To cut to the chase, I think figures from the Pe-8 manual or, better still, from operational unit records need to be cited here. Otherwise, it's not possible to give credence to the performance figures above.

Juha, you are right that the AM-35A had a relatively high critical altitude. It needs to be demonstrated that this was sufficient to propel the heavy and aerodynamically conservative Pe-8 to a high altitude. I have my doubts.

Some sources in English for Pe-8 data:
Yefim Gordon’s Soviet Air Power in World War 2 (2008),
Yefim GORDON's and Dmitri KHAZANOV's Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War. Volume Two (1999) and
Mikhail MASLOV's Petlyakov’s Long Range bomber in Model Aircraft Monthly Vol 7 Issue 9 September 2008

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

Also in an old Air International article, (Aug 1980) and Lennart Andersson's Soviet Aircraft and Aviation 1917 - 1941 (1994).

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Olynyk (Post 212449)

Most, if not all of the USAF Historical Studies can be downloaded from their website. The link is http://www.afhra.af.mil/studies/numb...calstudies.asp

Hello Frank,

Thank you! You've got a PM from me in your inbox.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juha (Post 212455)

Also in an old Air International article, (Aug 1980) and Lennart Andersson's Soviet Aircraft and Aviation 1917 - 1941 (1994).

Hello Juha,

Thank you, I did not know of the Maslov article. The problem with these sources is that only Maslov has written about the Pe-8 specifically, as far as I am aware. I have been and continue to be consistently sceptical on this topic, because there have been a lot of exaggerated claims made about the performance of Soviet equipment over the years. For British and American types, it is much more difficult to make such claims, because access to original documents is unhindered in the West.

For the time being, I accept Alex K's figures, unless Gabor or another member has further data to add on the subject.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

Sorry guys, I didn't follow the discussion, but eg. on April 07/08, 1944 the 45 AD DD Pe-8s bombed their targets from the altitude of 4200-6400 m between 21:49-22:05. I assume it was a 'regular' op. for them at that time.

Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

751 AP DD and 750 AP DD (on DB-3F) bombed Berlin on the night of 9/10 September 1942 with a height of about 6500м.
AA downed 1 aircraft from 751 AP DD, who fell in Lithuania. The Navigator and gunner-radio operator were killed. The pilot and gunner taken prisoner until the end of the war.

In 751 AP DD there is loss 13/14.09.1942 (1 DB-3F), but I'm not sure that it is the RAID on Berlin.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

Yep, the 751 AP DD lost IL-4 №8610 with the Maj. Aleksandr Lomov crew in Lithuania in a dogfight with a German NJG. (752 AP DD lost 3 other IL-4s: №6501, №7108, №7113, while 749 AP DD lost two, 3 GvAP DD lost one more IL-4. 836 AP DD lost two IL-4s in accident, etc...)

Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

Quote:

752 AP DD lost 3 IL-4s: №6501, №7108, №7113

Gabor,
If I'm not mistaken, 752 AP DD-bombed military targets Budapest and Königsberg on the night of 9/10 September 1942. One was shot down over Budapest...
Kirill

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942

Correct, beside Berlin, bombs fell on Budapest this night too. I am not aware of a plane crash in Budapest, but one IL-4 crashed at Szob, Budapest-N, ~60 km. Need to check the docs. Thanks,
Gabor