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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Thank you. Where I said OK or WIA, the pilots survived the battle and in most cases they returned to their unit (or were sent to hospital) the very same day, or in the next few days. Fate of their aircraft could be different: complete crash or just belly landing, but either way: it was erased from soviet AC inventory as a combat loss. (Write-off, so the victory credit is correct.)
For “real victory, but unsure which one,- too many options” I mean the claim is correct for 99%, as soviet planes were lost in the given time and area according to the claim. But if 3 planes crashed in the same battle in a small area, I cannot select the one mentioned in somebody's claim. Same, if the planes were shot out in the reported time and area, but they actually crashed somewhere else at a remote location... I cannot tell which victim received the bullets from this specific pilot. Let's pick an example. What September 27, 1944 (the 'Kassel-mission') was for the Liberators of the 8. USAAF, 445 BG, - January 4, 1945 was the same for the IL-2s of the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP. This day in the battles around Bajna, Hungary - they lost 7 IL-2s in dogfights and one additional to AAA. These 8 lost planes (S/N: 10967, 10987, 11425, 12052, 12054, 304836, 1888603, 18704106 and 18853106) were about one third of the regiment at that time! (The 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP lost another two IL-2s in dogfight in the same area: S/N: 10430 and 11413, while the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 715 ShAP lost one (S/N: 11511) to AAA and S/N: 11536 probably to fighters. 17 VA, 189 and 306 divisions also lost IL-2s, mainly to AAA, few to fighters.) The battle area exactly matches Lipfert's 169th and 170th claim. Since I am not aware of more than 9-10 IL-2 claims for the day in the area, I would say that Lipfert's claims are honest and true. But because of the too many options, I cannot tell which planes and crews. Some actually crashed en route to their home base, so it would be even more difficult to match the actual opponent(s). Barkhorn’s claims “No.277-278-279: three IL-2s on November 16, 1944” - Some lists say he claimed 3 IL-2s this day. Some say only fighters. Fighters match clearly, but the 92nd GvShAP lost 5 IL-2s in dogfight. Again, Tony Wood's list mentions only 4 German IL-2 claims this day over Hungary, but there was a 5th IL-2 loss in dogfight as well! If Barkhorn claimed IL-2 this day, I would say there is a good chance that at least one was his. (No proof, though.) So far I found Lipfert's claims the most precise. Barkhorn's list was also good and fair. But Hartmann's list was less than poor. I am not convinced that Hartmann (IN REAL) was even among the 10 best German fighter pilots in WWII!!! I have absolutely no explanation why he was chosen to be the Star of the Luftwaffe. I know these are strong words, but based on his average in Hungary in 1944, compared to soviet records, only 1/3 of his claims looks real victory (destroyed, or written-off) and 2/3 just fantasy... (Sorry, to be correct: max. damaged, but not destroyed) Certainly I am not a judge here and everybody is most welcome to prove the opposite. But I think in the future more legends will be changed/adjusted/-you name it-, and more publications will reveal the truth. Basically: this is the main purpose of this forum too. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi,
i would add that some Hungarian pilots also claimed fighters: Dezso Szentgyorgyi: 04.01.45 La-5 Me 109G 101/2 FS Sud Est de Bicske 18 Lajos Toth: 04.01.45 Slt La-5 . Me 109G 101 / 2 FS Sudeste Bicske 19 Later that day, Lt Jozsef Szabo claimed: 04.01.45 La-5 Me109G 101/4 FS near Bicske? ż? my first little info from this day, seems total losses: 17 VA Losses were: 17 IL-2 1 Boston, 1 La-5F, 3 La-5FN, 1 Yak-1b, 1 Pe-2, 2 Yak-9D, 1 Yak-9T. regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
I see in german claims:
4.1.45/1112 II/JG 52 Hptm. Helmut Lipfert La-5FN Russian 172nd/203 Tardos 4.1.45 6/JG 52 Lt. Heinz Ewald La-5FN Russian /85 4.1.45 1/JG 53 Maj. Juergen Harder La-5FN Russian 65th/(?) Budapest 4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj Gerhard Barkhorn La-5 _____ _____ E N 297 4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj Gerhard Barkhorn La-5 _____ _____ E N 298 4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj Gerhard Barkhorn La-5 _____ _____ E N 299 seems Overclaim, many claims for 4 losses? About yaks: II/JG 52 Maj. Gerhard Barkhorn Yak-9 II/JG 52 Hptm. Helmut Lipfert Yak-9 Bieske 3 yak9 losses in total, for 2 claims? you can link some of these or Hungarian claims, were german and Hungarian claims all in the same region and hour? regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
So far it looks that on January 4, 1945 the 17 VA lost:
20 IL-2m3 1 A-20G-25-DO Boston 1 La-5F 4 La-5FN 1 Yak-1B 2 Yak-9D 1 Yak-9T 1 Pe-2 (Some small, secondary 'satellite' units might be overlooked.) Looks like Szentgyörgyi-Tóth-Szabó claimed 3 'real' La-5 victories as three La-5s of 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP were lost in their reported area. In fact all 5 lost La-5s belonged to the 530 IAP. Note Lipfert's La-5 victory in prev. comments too. That plane was the 4th (pilot: KIA). All details are known for the losses, except not sure who claimed which particular plane in the battle. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Oh, I did not know about so many La-5 claims! There were only 5 losses in 17 VA on January 4, 1945.
Could you please provide TIME info to compare them to the reported (Moscow local) times in soviet reports? I think this is the only way to catch the German and Hungarian overclaims! As of the Yaks, I think it is almost irrelevant what is written in the German-Hungarian claims. In the air ALL Yaks looked the same. It is enough to say: Yak or La. The 17 VA lost 4 Yaks in total on January 4, 1945. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
OK. On January 4, 1945 the 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530. IAP lost 5 La-5s at local times as follows:
09:15 - 1 La-5FN loss. Bicske area at 3500 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) 09:30 - 1 La-5FN loss. Bicske area at 3000 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) (These two were probably in the same battle with the same planes) 10:30 - 1 La-5FN loss. Martonvásár area. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) 11:20 - 1 La-5FN loss. Tarján area. 6 530. IAP La-5 covering 14 639. ShAP IL-2. 14:55 - 1 La-5F loss. 6 La-5 covering 12 IL-2 near Bicske at 800 m. Maybe this helps. Any claims in other times, or more claims at a single time, listed above, can be considered an overclaim. (ie: only damaged, but not destroyed.) Gábor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor, you state:
Quote:
Re 27 Sep 44 Mission Il-2 Losses/Claims: Losses: 9 Plus to fighters + 2 Plus to AAA Vs. 9-10 German Claims = Almost certain victory –unable to match claims to exact victim” Here are several hypothetical postings (This is not for 27 Sep 44 Mission!): 7 Plus to fighters + 3 Plus to AAA = 6 German Claims + 2 Hungarian Claims + 2 AAA Claims 7 Plus to fighters + 3 to AAA = 6 German Claims + 0 Hungarian Claims + 2 AAA Claims 7 to fighters + 3 Plus to AAA = 6 German Claims + No known Hungarian Claims + 2 AAA Claims Once again Gabor, many thanks. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi,
4,1.45 6./JG 52 Hptm. Lipfert La-5FN 1km südöstlich Tardos 1km SE Tardos 11:12 _____ E N 169 4,1.45 6./JG 52 Lt. Ewald La-5 S. Gran _____ _____ E N 56 4,1.45 I./JG 53 Maj. Harder La-5 ż? ____ _____ E N 4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj. Barkhorn La-5 ż? _____ _____ E N 297 4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj. Barkhorn La-5 ż? _____ _____ E N 298 4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj. Barkhorn La-5 ż? _____ _____ E N 299 about the time of many claims, is not known to me... sorry, regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Lipfert's La-5FN claim is firm for January 4, 1945. Tardos and Tarján are basically neighbour villages. 11:12 and 11:20 in the records of two enemy countries(!) is the same. It was La-5FN, S/N: 39211399, ml.l-t Suhorukhov KIA. 17 VA, 194 IAD, 53o IAP.
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi
Regarding Tony Woods not listing Barkhorn's 3 X Il-2 for 16th November 1944, he did make five claims that day, one of his biggest ever, but as mentioned before the micro films are only partial at this point, and only the fighters were listed for Barkhorn this day. Regards Johannes |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Szentgyörgyi Dezső (in Bf 109G, code: W-1+77) and Tóth Lajos (both from 101/2. squadron) claimed 1-1 La-5 at Bicske in the morning. Szabó József (101/4. squadron) claimed a La-5 separately on another mission during the day. So the 3 Hungarian claims were NOT scored together on the same mission, but on two.
Szentgyörgyi Dezső and Tóth Lajos (the two leading Hungarian aces) probably downed the first two 530 IAP La-5s of the day at 9:15 and 9:30 at Bicske-SE. (La-5FN, S/N: 39211920 and 39211023.) Soviet flight had 4 La-5s, their leader was Ivan Petrovich Vashenko of the 3rd squadron. 2 La-5s were lost, the other 2 La-5s, including Vashenko returned. Vashenko was shot down on the very next mission after refuelling at 10:30 near Martonvásár!!!! Szabó's reported La-5 victim is unknown. As no details on the German times and locations, only Lipfert's claim can be identified. But it looks 100%. The five 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP La-5 losses on January 4, 1945: 09:15 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211920, tactical ‘20’, piloted by ml.l-t Fedor Fedorovich Orlovsky (OK). - Bicske area at 3500 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) crashlanded after the battle far away in the South, near Cece. Plane broken, pilot OK. Probably Tóth's or Szentgyörgyi's victim. 09:30 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211023, engine: 8212014, tactical ‘23’, piloted by ml.l-t Aleksandr Petrovich Dyakov (KIA). - Bicske area at 3000 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) Probably Tóth's or Szentgyörgyi's victim. (These two were probably in the same battle with the same planes) 10:30 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211488, engine: 82111529, tactical ‘88’, piloted by Ivan Petrovich Vashenko (OK). - Martonvásár area. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) 11:20 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211399, engine: 82111418, tactical ‘99’, piloted by ml.l-t Aleksei Stepanovich Suhorukhov (KIA). - Tarján area. 6 530. IAP La-5 covering 14 639. ShAP IL-2. (Downed by Lipfert for sure at Tardos-Tarján) 14:55 - La-5F, S/N: 39215048, engine: 65033077, tactical ‘48’, piloted by ml.l-t Maxim Yakovlevich Efimov (KIA). - 6 La-5 covering 12 IL-2 near Bicske at 800 m. Shot down at Bicske-NW, 12 km in dogfight. .................................................. ........................... When calculating claims, let's not forget that 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP also lost a La-5FN, S/N: 39213325, engine: 82131274, tactical '25' at Budapest, Ferihegy airport when crash-landed with battle damages after a mission at 15:20. Pilot, ml.l-t Vasilii Fedorovich Panov was OK, plane was later repaired. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
GMichalski,
Sorry I missed your question on the Yaks. December 25, 1944 is a very messy day, several Yak losses and confusing papers. 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP pilot, ml.l-t Pavel Alekseevich Gorlach was downed near Vértesszőlős while protecting IL-2s in the Pátka area in his Yak-9D, S/N: 16166065, engine: 3-2707(?) and was MIA. December 25, 1944 hit the 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP the hardest. Their Yaks had very serious battles with II/JG 52 fighters in the Székesfehérvár-N - Pátka - Zámoly area. Several crashes, but papers are not clear, chances are some planes are mixed with other days' losses, but written off by the 25th. 611 IAP Capt. Konstantin Leontievich Chernogor was KIA in Yak-1B, S/N: 26170 near Zámoly. l-t Nikolai Nikolaevich Kutsenko bailed out from his burning Yak-1B, S/N: 41184 also in the Zámoly area. ml.l-ts Dmitrii Gavrilovich Kirichenko, Ivan Ivanovich Aleshkin, Aleksei Timofeevich Fadeev, Boris Aleksandrovich Yablyukhin were also downed. (ml.l-t Kirichenko was famous ace, Maj. Aleksei Pavlovich Churilin's wingman.) ml.l-t Georgii Artemovich Alevardov belly-landed near his base after dogfight in his Yak-9M, S/N: 2715376. Planes were permanently or temporarily lost: Yak-1Bs: 14177, 15150, 26170, 41184, 44172, 05193. (44172 was the regiment commander's, Nikolai Fedorovich Isaenko's officially assigned plane for a long time. He had flown it on 41 missions in 1944. (Not sure about the pilot on December 25, 1944.) According to his personal records, Isaenko later flew the following Yak-3s of the 611 IAP in 1945: (Tbilisi-built) S/N: 310123 on 28 missions and (Saratov-built) S/N: 2235 on another 11 missions.) Other downed Yak-9Ms on December 25, 1944: 2715372 and 2715374. This day still requires lots of research and data reconciliation. As of the 611 IAP, see attached pic of downed 611 IAP Yak-1B near Börgönd airfield after belly landing on January 1, 1945. S/N: 39167, tactical yellow '20'. Since 611 IAP was transferred from 236 IAD to 288 IAD in 1944 and their tail markings were identical with 267 IAP, there is an ongoing public confusion about 267-611 IAP planes, markings and photos. This plane, yellow '20' in Hungary belonged to 611 IAP, NOT the 267 IAP - in Yugoslavia!!!! Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Well, I am going to go out on a limb and ask:
Can any of our Russian friends and experts help to complete the picture by providing info to the forum on the earlier victims of Helmut Lipfert? It would be fascinating to have all of his victims mapped out as best as possible... Nick |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
thanks anyway, your help is much appreciated for me and i suppose to others of this forum.... regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
i review the info and exist the little chance that some german pilots misidentified the la-5 with Yak9 or Yak1 ż? even passed me this situation in simulators...no real, it´s a game, but... maybe in the future with more info.... regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Could be... Misidentification was very common issue in the winter months of 1944-1945 due to poor visibility and distance. Soviet pilots regularly misidentified Bf 109s and Fw 190s... In many battles with Bf 109s they reported "Fokkers". This problem definitely makes research very challenging....
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Answer to the question on Capt. Pottyondy László, Hungarian 13 victory Bf 109G-ace's claims. He scored his victories between 1941-1945. (All over VVS planes.) He often flew in pair with Hptm. Eric Hartmann in the late fall of 1944. Sometimes he was the leader and Hartmann was his wingman, sometimes in reverse. Here is what I found in soviet losses over Hungary for him where: reported date, location and AC type matched: Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim 04 ….. 30.10.44. Boston III ……….A-20G-10-DO, S/N: 42-53856 (or perhaps 42-54197, an A-20G-15-DO), 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP at Nagykőrös 05 ….. 30.10.44. Yak-9 ………......Yak-1B, S/N: 21151, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, gv.,l.l-t Evgenii Vasilevich Erofitskii 06 ….. 01.11.44. La-5 ………........La-5F, S/N: 39215336, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP at Szolnok, pilot WIA. 07 ….. 17.11.44. Boston III ……….A-20G-10-DO, S/N: 42-53956, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP at Ócsa (2 killed airmen buried nearby) - No Boston loss for Hartmann at Erzsébetfalva! 08 ….. 22.12.44. IL-2m3 ……….....Found no permanent loss in the area, probably overclaim (only damaged but not destroyed) 09 ….. 03.01.45. Yak-9 ………......Yak-9D, a 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP plane - not sure which one, 3-4 options in reported area! 10 ….. 14.01.45. Boston III ……….A-20G-15-DO, S/N: 42-54166, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP battle at Pilisvörösvár, but crashed at Rákospalota. 11 ….. 22.01.45. La-5 ………........La-5FN, a 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP plane. Not sure which one, - 3 options in reported area. 12 ….. 20.02.45. Yak-9 ………......Yak-3, S/N: 2119 (2129219), 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, pilot killed, left wing blown-off still in the air... 13 ….. 08.03.45. IL-2m3 ………....IL-2m3, S/N: 11560, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP, battle at Soponya, but crashed at Rácalmás-NW. Later repaired and returned into service!!! Cheers, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi,
great info!! you know little more about russian claims of Debrődy György? i see his american claims match well.... regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
GMichalski,
Here is Capt. Debrődy György (George), Hungarian Bf 109G fighter ace. (1921-1984) He had 26 victories from which he claimed the first 18 over the Eastern Front. Since I have soviet AC loss data only for Hungary, therefore I cannot verify these 18 claims. When he returned to Hungary, in the summer of 1944 (as part of the Hungarian home defence fighter forces) he claimed 6 American planes. (2 P-38J, 1 P-51B, 1 B-17G, 2 B-24 Liberators) These claims all look good, but in this topic we primarily focus on claims against the soviet VVS. Having said that he had only 2 (the last 2) victories I could check as these were his only soviet claims over Hungary. Both claims are correct and can be verified from soviet sources. One of them was even a very famous soviet pilot: gv.st.l-t Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov (HSU)! Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim 25 ….. 16.11.44. .....La-5FN….......La-5FN, S/N: 39212952, engine: 8213749, tactical white " <*52 ", 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, gv.st.l-t Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov (KIA, ace, HSU!) 26 ….. 16.11.44. .....Yak-9 ………...Yak-9D, S/N: 2015329, engine: 415-992, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Ismail Semenovich Rulev (KIA) This was his last battle and victory during WWII, since during this last victory he was shot down too (mutually with the Yak-9) and seriously injured. He survived the war, but this battle ended his fighting career. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
wow,
many thanks Gabor about these two you know some.... Istvan Fabian Lajos Toth apart from these reliable Hungarian pilots, with your info, you know the other side of the coin or any pilots who was exagerated in claims Hungarian or German or others....apart from Hartmann of course regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
I have already told earlier that matching pilots has never been the centre of my research. To find false claims, we would need to go through every single German-Hungarian claim. I have no time for this and I am not planning it. However, eg. I recall a La-7 claim from Tóth Lajos on March 9, 1945, which cannot be verified from soviet sources, even if it was verified by a witness from his own flight. It was a high altitude dogfight and the falling plane probably did not crash, but recovered near ground level and returned home.
But I also found REAL VICTORIES, which have never been approved, - two of them have never been reported! Sure, false claims are more frequent than these rare cases. But for instance, I found two more victories for Hungary's top scoring ace, Szentgyörgyi Dezső. So far he was credited 33 victories and I found two more for him. (Certainly all the previous claims still should be verified.) For instance, on March 20, 1945 he downed a La-7. But until the new soviet documents, nobody knew, that this downed La-7 -while pulling into the clouds-, in the next few seconds collided with his wingman and as a result, BOTH 5 VA, 179 GvIAP La-7s (S/N: 45210501 and 45210353) crashed - some time apart! Both pilots bailed out and laded safely, therefore they are not listed in the regiment's personnel losses. (OBD) What to say now? Szentgyörgyi saw, reported and then got credited for only one La-7, but now from the new documents we know, that due to his action two La-7s failed to return from their mission! Interesting, isn't it? History is sometimes much more complicated than we think. And I think this is just the tip of the iceberg...... I am sure much more interesting things will be found along this fascinating road... Cheers, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
:D
thanks HGabor, it´s enough for me kind regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Here is the list to the question about Fábián István, Hungarian Bf 109G ace. First claims on the Eastern Front, plus 1 (+2 unsure) claims on American planes in the summer of 1944. His list has a few confusing points, therefore it still needs further investigation. Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim 07 ….. 13.11.44. Yak-9 ……….....A veeeery messy day. Probable Yak- victory at 14:48, but cannot match for sure to any losses. (Too many options from 5 VA, 13 GvIAD and 331 IAD.) 08 ….. 21.12.44. La-5 ………......Found no permanent loss, but: I know the 17 VA, 194 IAD La-5 losses only between December 25, 1944 and VE-Day. Based on location it could be a 194 IAD plane, so still needs investigation! 09 ….. 16.01.45. Pe-2R ………....Overclaim. Plane escaped with 56 hits and landed on one wheel at Madocsa. 17 VA, 39 ORAP, l-t Makarov crew. 10 ….. 16.01.45. Yak-9 ………....Yak-3, S/N: 2917, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP, ml.l-t Galkin (KIA) 11 ….. 19.02.45. La-5 ………......La-5F, S/N: 39215021, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, ml.l-t Emec (KIA) Crashed and broke at landing after the battle, having serious combat damages. 12 ….. 19.02.45. La-5 ………......La-5??? - Most likely an overclaim, no close match in soviet records. 13 ….. 13.03.45. IL-2 ……….......Probably IL-2m3, S/N: 1877483, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 951 ShAP, l-t Tumashev (KIA) crew. (A Close case, but details match for only about 75%. Needs more investigation.) 14 ….. 19.03.45. IL-2 ……….......Probably IL-2m3, S/N: 18835124, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP, gv.ml.l-t Buryakovskii (KIA) crew. (A Close case, but details match for only about 75%. Needs more investigation.) Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
many thanks about 21.12.44 i have other date: 20.12.44 Sgt La 5 Me 109G 101/2 FS Pilote Edr 10 my info comes from: http://www.cieldegloire.fr/008_fabian.php maybe your info is the correct.... regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Either way... For 17 VA, 194 IAD I have data for only after December 25, 1944... So I dunno... :)
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
and finally: 2Lt. Tóth Lajos, Hungarian Bf 109G ace's soviet claims over Hungary and Austria in 1944-1945: Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim 14 ….. 13.11.44. Yak-9 ………......Unsure about this, several 5 VA Yak- options 15 ….. 16.11.44. IL-2 ………........Unsure about this, having not enough records for 17 VA for that early date. 16 ….. 05.12.45. Yak-9 ……….....Unsure about this 17 ….. 09.12.44. Yak-9 ……….....Unsure, three 17 VA, 288 IAD Yak options. 18 ….. 04.01.45. La-5 ……….......La-5FN, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP, - see details in prev. comments. 19 ….. 21.01.45. Yak-9 ………......Unsure, - perhaps Yak-9D, S/N: 19166076 20 ….. 23.01.45. La-5 ……….......La-5F, S/N: 39215033, engine: 65033203, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, ml.l-t Grehovodov (KIA) 21 ….. 23.01.45. La-5 ……….......La-5, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, ml.l-t Abrarov (KIA) 22 ….. 09.03.45. La-7 ……….......Overclaim, found no such soviet loss, probably just damaged. (La-7, ~5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 179 GvIAP) 23 ….. 20.03.45. Yak-9 ………......Found no such permanent loss, probably damaged. 24 ….. 13.04.45. La-7 ……….......La-7, S/N: 45211044, engine: 82132741, tactical white '44', 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, ml.l-t Petr Fedorovich Ivanchenko (KIA) at Austria, Vienna-N, -NW 25 ….. 14.04.45. IL-2 ……….......IL-2m3, S/N: 18872120, engine: 2514148, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, l-t Simanskii - Ionin crew (KIA) at Austria, Stelcendorf(?)-N, 1 km 26 ….. 14.04.45. IL-2 ……….......IL-2m3, S/N: 1880702, engine: 259357, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 951 ShAP, crew at Austria, Brodersdorf-NW, 500 m, ml.l-t Satanovskii - Plankin crew Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
here is Peter Düttmann's list for Hungary from JG 52. Sorry to say, but this is also an "Eric Hartmann category", - or even much worse. Especially his "series of five IL-2s" on March 16, 1945 is absolutely ridiculous... I tried to be nice to him and "granted" a credit, if his claim was in a half an hour range with the soviet reports, if otherwise the other details (area, AC type, or at least the manufacturer) matched: 01/11/1944 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 01/11/1944 Jak-9 - Yak-1B, S/N: 08175, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, gv.l-t Andrianov (POW) 01/11/1944 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 01/11/1944 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 07/11/1944 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged - one loss, but reported time is 4 hrs. late for it!!!! Impossible. 13/11/1944 Jak-11 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported time is 1-2 hrs. wrong! 13/11/1944 Jak-11 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported time is 1-2 hrs. wrong! 13/11/1944 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, closest reported hr. is 1.5 hrs. apart! 08/03/1945 Jak-3 - Yak-3, S/N: 310099, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 866 IAP, ml.l-t Yablochkin, KIA 08/03/1945 Jak-3 - Found no permanent loss, probably just another (damaged) 866 IAP - Yak-3 from the same flight. 09/03/1945 La-5 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 09/03/1945 Il-2mH. - IL-2m3, S/N: 11610, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, ml.l-t Indyushkin - Krasilnikov crew KIA 11/03/1945 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late! 11/03/1945 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late! 11/03/1945 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late! 14/03/1945 Boston - A-20G-40-DO, S/N: 43-21519, R-2600-23 engines: 43-105954 and 43-105698 at Pálinkaházpuszta, Seregélyes-SW, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 861 BAP (l-t Bahvalov - l-t Mayorov - c-a Zolotov - e-p Solianik crew, all 4 KIA. This soviet Boston has been found, recovered and identified by a nice data-plate just a few years ago. Plane exploded still in the air and remains covered the fields below. Flight of sixteen 17 VA, 861 BAP A-20 Bostons with the cover of only 2 (!) Yaks...) See: attached pic. below. 16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP. 16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP. 16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP. 16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP. 16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - IL-2m3, S/N: 18874124, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP - ml.l-t Zaharov (WIA) - Iashin (WIA) crew. 18/03/1945 Jak-3 - No idea. Potential victory, but lack of info. 3 Yak losses this day. 19/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss at 11:52, probably just damaged. Many IL-2 losses this day, but all with 2-3 hrs. difference! 19/03/1945 Jak-3 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 19/03/1945 La-5 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211166, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, ml.l-t Ozhiganov (MIA) 20/03/1945 P-51 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Fw. Erich Pilz (6./SG 10 - Fw 190F) over Hungary in 1944. Not much, only 2, with 50% accuracy. Date .........Reported AC ..Real victim 16.11.44.....DC-3 ……….....Douglas C-47A, S/N: 42-24140, 4 GvBAK, 5 GvAD DD, gv.k-n Petr Timofeevich Alekseenko's recce. crew at Szeged-NW. (His passenger, commander of 5 GvAD DD, gv.p-k Pavel Ivanovich Kondrat'ev (1899-1944) died of his wounds at No.5202 field hospital later the day.) Plane was delivered to the Soviet Union on August 4, 1943, not to Australia, as it is written in her card. Batch of 15 C-47As: 42-24140 - 42-24154 for $109.663 each. 22.11.44.....Yak-7 ………....Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged. (about 1.5 hrs apart there was a Yak-9T loss in the area in crash-landing. (it was cutting the trees due to engine trouble, pilot was WIA.) Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
sorry about the time of respond, about Duttman the huge claims unconfirmed he had seems suspect or at least curious to me, some of you have were unconfirmed but...... bad, very bad info... 1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 ostlich Kecskemet E Kecskemet 1402 3500 E N.B N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 nordlich Kecskemet N Kecskemet 1403 2000 E J 117 Yak-1B, S/N: 08175, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, gv.l-t Andrianov (POW) 1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 sudsudwestlich Abony SSW Abony 1405 3500 E J 118 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 sudlich Nagykoros S Nagykoros 1406 2500 E J 119 x2 Umlaut 1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Il-2 ostlich Kecskemet E Kecskemet 1409 1000 E J 120 7,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt La-5 nordnordostlich Abony NNE Abony 1605 1700 E J 121 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 13,1.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-11 sudsudwestlich Tapio Szele SSW Tapio Szele 902 4000 E J 122 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported time is 1-2 hrs. wrong! 13,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-11 sudsudwestlich Tapio Szele SSW Tapio Szele 905 4000 E J 123 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported time is 1-2 hrs. wrong! 13,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Il-2 nordlich Jaszbereny N Jaszbereny 1220 1500 E J 124 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, closest reported hr. is 1.5 hrs. apart! 8,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-3 sudwestlich Aba 3km SW Aba 1624 _____ E N 125 Yak-3, S/N: 310099, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 866 IAP, ml.l-t Yablochkin, KIA 8,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-3 sudlich Aba 4km S Aba 1627 _____ E N 126 Found no permanent loss, probably just another (damaged) 866 IAP - Yak-3 from the same flight. 9,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt La-5 ostlich Kaloz 12km E Kaloz 1351 _____ E N 127 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 9,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 ostlich Kaloz 18km E Kaloz 1353 _____ E N 128 IL-2m3, S/N: 11610, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, ml.l-t Indyushkin - Krasilnikov crew KIA 11,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 sudostlich Kaloz 6km SE Kaloz 1321 _____ E N 129 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late! 11,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 Szebed SW Szebed 1323 _____ E O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late! 11,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 Polgardi S.Polgardi 1326 _____ E O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late! 14,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Boston nordlich Aba 8km N Aba 1255 _____ E N 130 A-20G-40-DO, S/N: 43-21519, R-2600-23 engines: 43-105954 and 43-105698 at Pálinkaházpuszta, Seregélyes-SW, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 861 BAP (l-t Bahvalov - l-t Mayorov - c-a Zolotov - e-p Solianik crew, all 4 KIA. This soviet Boston has been found, recovered and identified by a nice data-plate just a few years ago. Plane exploded still in the air and remains covered the fields below. Flight of sixteen 17 VA, 861 BAP A-20 Bostons with the cover of only 2 (!) Yaks...) 16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 Pakozd 6km Pakozd 1355 _____ E O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP. 16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 Stuhlweissenberg N Stuhlweissenberg 1356 _____ E O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP. 16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 sudwestlich Pakozd SW Pakozd 1358 _____ E N 131 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP. 16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 nordwestlich Pakozd 3km NW Pakozd 1359 _____ E N 132 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP. 16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 nordostlich Pakozd 6km NE Pakozd 1401 _____ E N 133 IL-2m3, S/N: 18874124, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP - ml.l-t Zaharov (WIA) - Iashin (WIA) crew. 18,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-3 Kaloz SE Kaloz 1405 _____ E O.Z N u/c Jak-3 - No idea. Potential victory, but lack of info. 3 Yak losses this day. 19,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 nordwestlich Stuhlweissenberg NW Stuhlweissenberg 1152 _____ E N 134 Found no permanent loss at 11:52, probably just damaged. Many IL-2 losses this day, but all with 2-3 hrs. difference! 19,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-3 nordlich Stuhlweissenberg N Stuhlweissenberg 1456 _____ E N 135 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged 19,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt La-5 sudsudwestlich Stuhlweissenberg SSW Stuhlweissenberg 1503 _____ E N 136 La-5FN, S/N: 39211166, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, ml.l-t Ozhiganov (MIA) 20,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt P-51 Veszprem 10km WSW Veszprem 1405 _____ W O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged claims info from Johannes... losses from your info, see the huge unconfirmed... regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
About other pilots i only say some little info about Thyben, general info in some cases, but gives a relative idea of the claims and Russian casualties:
5,6.44 5./JG 54 Lt La-5 Ostsee 90km nordöstlich Kunda Baltic Sea 90km NE Kunda 1126 4200 E J 44 3 losses, (3 GIAP-KBF. Losses include Kapitan Aleksandr Andreevich Troshin KIA this info from Nick Hector) 10,10.44 7./JG 54 Lt Yak-9 07 653 955 1000 E J 101 Overclaim on Libau only lost two Yak-9 JG54 claimed 4. (Day's Yak losses include Major Ivan Konstantinovich Golovatyuk of 66th GvIAP KIA (believed by JG 54, Kretinga-Memel area) this info from Nick Hector) 10,10.44 7./JG 54 Lt Pe-2 raum 15km südöstlich Libau 15km SE Libau 1015 1200 E J 102 Overclaiming? only 7 Pe-2 lost, JG54 claimed 19!? 30,10.44 7./JG 54 Lt Pe-2 raum 20km südöstlich Libau 20km SE Libau 1158 3800 E J 112 Claimed 15 Pe-2 vs 10 no return 30,10.44 7./JG 54 Lt Pe-2 raum 20km südlich Libau 20km S Libau 1200 1500 E J 113 Claimed 15 Pe-2 vs 10 no return 23,11.44 7./JG 54 Lt Il-2 Rigaischer Meerbusen nordöstlich Windau Gulf of Riga NE Windau 820 10 E J 116 Ltn. Thaler and Thyben claims are correct: 2 Il-2 (35.ShAP 9.ShAD Baltic Fleet Air Forces) shot down 14,12.44 7./JG 54 Lt Il-2 07 632 1216 _____ E N 117 (47th and 8th Guards Assault Regiment lost 13 Il-2 and 11 crew members), including Col. Nelson Stepanyan at 1412 hrs, 8-10km N of Libau (2 x Hero of the Soviet Union). Seven other crews KIA. 10 other IL-2s damaged, 1 Yak-9 and two A-20s lost to flak 14,12.44 7./JG 54 Lt Il-2 07 661 1224 _____ E N 118 (47th and 8th Guards Assault Regiment lost 13 Il-2 and 11 crew members), including Col. Nelson Stepanyan at 1412 hrs, 8-10km N of Libau (2 x Hero of the Soviet Union). Seven other crews KIA. 10 other IL-2s damaged, 1 Yak-9 and two A-20s lost to flak some bad but also some good....interesting posting kind regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
This is good. Note: Stuhlweissenberg (in German) is the city of Székesfehérvár, one of the main areas where the big, 1945 spring battles took place. Area of Germany's very last Panzer (counter)offensive in WWII, - started on March 6, 1945. (This explains the Xtremely high loss-rates in the reports during the month.)
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Few samples of small, but 100% accuracy claims over Hungary during the long-range, Yugoslav partisan supply-drop missions in 1944: Fw. Eckart Ulmer's (8./NJG 6) two, 100% victories: Date ........Reported AC......Real victim: 09/10.08.44. Mitchell ……….....B-25C-15-NA, S/N: 42-32474, tactical: red '12', 5 GvAD DD, 14 GvAP DD, gv.k-n Karakozov crew, 6 KIA. Crashed in a forest between Kismányok and Nagymányok, Hungary. 09/10.08.44. Mitchell ……….....B-25D-30-NC, S/N: 43-3507, tactical: red '4', 5 GvAD DD, 14 GvAP DD, gv.l-t Pchelov crew, 5 KIA. Crashed in a house in Akasztó, Hungary. 1 resident also killed. Ofw. Josef Federle (8./NJG 6) 100% victory: Date ........Reported AC......Real victim: 10/11.08.45. Mitchell ……….....B-25D-20-NC, S/N: 41-30612, 5 GvAD DD, 22 GvAP DD, tactical: red '45', gv.p.p-k Galinski crew, 6 KIA/POW/MIA. Crashed on the market place of Martonos, Hungary. (now: Serbia) ...and an overclaim, - no matter what he reported: Oblt. Wilhelm Johnen's (8./NJG6 Me 110G-4) overclaim: Date ........Reported AC......Real victim: 10/11.08.44. Mitchell ……….....Overclaim, only damaged near Szolnok, Hungary. 337 AP DD B-25 returned with 75 hits with gv.l-t Fedorov's crew onboard. (See part of long mission-report below. Note it says: Do 217!) Oblt. Wilhelm Johnen's (8./NJG6 Me 110G-4) 100% victory: Date ........Reported AC......Real victim: 15/16.08.44. Mitchell ……….....B-25C-15-NA, S/N: 42-32523, 5 GvAD DD, 337 AP DD, tactical: red '71', gv.k-n Kravtsov crew, 5 MIA at Márkusfalva, Hungary. (now: Croatia) Etc, etc, etc, etc.... Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hello Gabor
thanks again for really outstanding inputs! Juha |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
You're welcome!
Some additional info to the prev. Mitchell NJG claims from soviet long-range mission plans/reports (TsAMO archives, Russia): August 9/10, 1944: Samarica (Croatia) partisan supply-drop mission without landing. Soviet long-range 14 GvAP DD assigned 7 Mitchells for the mission. Take-off time: 21:30 - 21:35 PM at Kalinovka. Drop zone: Samarica (Croatia): B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....507, red '4' (S/N: 43-3507, lost at Akasztó, Hungary AFTER supply-drop. Last radio signal received from plane at 01:40 AM saying: crossed line "2" - (Code of the Danube river en route home. R-2600-13 engines: 43-21824 and 43-23496. Pilots: Pchelov in left, Eremeev in right seat.) B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....362, red '5' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....474, red '12' (S/N: 42-32474, lost at Nagymányok, Hungary BEFORE drop. R-2600-13 engines: 43-21653 and 43-21678. Maintenance note: the 5th cylinder of engine no.43-21653 was replaced on July 28, 1944. Plane itself was received by 4 GvAD between May 20-25, 1943. Pilots: Kolyashkin in left, Karakozov in right seat.) B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....394, red '14' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....588, red '25' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....389, red '22' - ABORTED MISSION! B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....369, red '7' No.'22' was aborted, six planes flew the mission. Red '4' and '12' was shot down by Fw. Eckart Ulmer, the rest: red '5, 7, 14, 25' returned OK between 04:00-10 AM. August 10/11, 1944: partisan supply-drop mission without landing near Gagintsi. Soviet long-range 22 GvAP DD assigned 11 (8+3) Mitchells for the 2 missions. One was lost, the rest returned OK: B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....247, red '36' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....587, red '37' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....123, red '39' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ...569?, red '34' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....612, red '45' (S/N: 41-30612, lost at Martonos, Hungary. R-2600-13 engines: 42-76955 and 42-76809.) B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....???, red '46' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....???, red '59' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....375, red '58' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....???, red '56' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....333, red '60' B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....782, red '*' (Reg. Commander's Red Star marking on tail, - No number sign) Red '45' was shot down by Ofw. Josef Federle, the rest returned OK. Another, 337 AP DD plane from their 8+3 Mitchells flying this mission received 75 hits in a dogfight near Szolnok, but returned. Note: on August 10/11, 1944 22 GvAP DD and 337 AP DD flew 2-2 different missions to different target zones: 22 GvAP DD: Gagintsi 8 planes (red '36, 39, 45, 46, 59, 58, 56, 60'), Bu Ban'(?) 3 planes (red '*, 71, 83'). 337 AP DD: Bu Ban'(?) 8 planes (red '61, 63, 73, 74, 82, 85, 84, 87'), Lizard(?) 3 planes. 14 GvAP DD flew only to Samarica again, this time with 4 B-25s (red '5, 7, 14 and 22') only. Gabor Sources: TsAMO archives, Russia and Royal Hungarian Police - enemy AC crash investigation records. Some confusion in papers with markings! |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Some photo-details for modellers/kit builders showing the form/design of the red tactical tail numbers of soviet 5 GvAD DD (14 GvAP DD, 22 GvAP DD and 337 AP DD) B-25 Mitchells, participating the long-range Yugoslav partisan supply-drop missions in 1944. On the far left, see list of 14 GvAP DD planes and pilots, flying the August 9/10, 1944 mission, including Fw. Eckart Ulmer's (8./NJG 6) two Mitchell victims this night over Hungary: B-25s No. '4' and '12'. (From 14 GvAP DD mission-plan, - TsAMO archives, Russia) Enjoy! Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
many thanks Gabor
kind regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
This is Heinz Ewald's list for Hungary, only in 1945: Date..........Reported AC................Time.................Real victim 02/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 12.3 ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (Few La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference) 02/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 12.3 ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (Several Yak losses in the South in the Tata-Bicske area.) 03/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 09.00~ ................ Good question. One La-5F was hit by flak around 9:00 over Esztergom and crashlanded at Fót-S en route home, due to quitting engine. Maybe a quick ambush from below…? 03/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 09.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged - time is wrong with few hrs. 03/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 09.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged - time is wrong with few hrs. 03/01/1945 Jak-3 .................... 14.00~ ................ Yak-3, S/N: 1817 (1829217), 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Verginskii (WIA, in hospital) / probably shared Yak-3 victory with Hungarian Bf 109 pilot Lója Géza fhdgy. 101/4. Sq. at 13:50 near Bajna. 8 Yak-3s vs. 10 Fw 190 & 12 Bf 109s. 03/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 14.00~ ................ Probably La-5F, S/N: 39214789, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, crashlanded at Tóalmás airfield-SW, ~1,5 km, after a dogfight with a Bf 109 pair in the Bajna area and broke. Pilot unhurt. 04/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 10.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged. 5 La-5 losses in Bicske-Martonvasar area, but too far in the South! 06/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.3 ................ Unsure, looks too South. Perhaps L-5FN, S/N: 39212618, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP on a mission between Esztergom-Komárom? 16/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 11.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged. 16/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 14.00~ ................ Maybe this: Yak-1B, S/N: 40171, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP at Budapest-E, between 16:45-17:55 Moscow time, crashlanded at Kartal after dogfight with Bf 109s. (5 Yak-1s.) 19/01/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 12.00~ ................ Looks a real victory, but unfortunately to many IL-2 options. Most likely IL-2, S/N: 10513, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 995 ShAP, ml.l-t Kobilyatskii crew OK. 20/01/1945 Boston .................... 16.00~ ................ A-20G-40 DO, S/N: 43-21264, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, l-t Gapanovich crew 22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.3 ................... Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference) 22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.3 ................... Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference) 22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference) 22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ Perhaps a La-5FN: S/N: 41210109, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP. (4 La-5s this day and here no time was given, so who knows? Returned to airfield after dogfight and broke. 4 La-5 & 5 IL-2 vs. 6 Bf 109s) 30/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (3 La-5s this day with few hours difference) 02/02/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 15.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 17 VA, 194 IAD, 56 IAP La-5s, but only on February 3, 1945) 04/02/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ La-5F, S/N: 39215046, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, ml.l-t Voronov 04/02/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ La-5FN, S/N: 39212754, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, ml.l-t Lazarev 01/03/1945 P-51 .................... 13.00± .................... P-51D, S/N: 44-15480, 15 USAAF, 325th FG, 1Lt. Frederick J. Wulfe (O-513279, POW) 08/03/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 16.00± ................ No idea, found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. Several IL-2s lost to AAA in area, but few hrs earlier! 11/03/1945 Jak-9 ...................... 15.00± ................. Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. 13/03/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 10.00± ................ Looks a real 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 131 GvShAP IL-2 victory, but not sure which one 13/03/1945 La-5 ....................... 16.00± ................. La-5F, S/N: 39215208, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, ml.l-t Radchenko 13/03/1945 La-5 ....................... 16.00± ................. Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. 14/03/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 13.00± ................ Looks a real victory, but to many IL-2 options 14/03/1945 Boston .................... 17.00± ................. A-20B-DL, S/N: 41-3643, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, st.l-t Pavlov 16/03/1945 Jak-3 ...................... 17.00± ................ Yak-9D, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP, ml.l-t Korotkevich Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor,
Your usual brilliance Keep up the good work, it is high time this kind of thing saw the light of day... Nick |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
i only add some info of the lost P-51D: 12517 450301 P-51D-15-NA 44-15480 *ShuShu* , O-513279 325 318 1Lt. Frederick J. Wulfe POW Location, 47°N 17°55' . Point Of Departure, Lusina, Italy.*European Theatre: Hungary, Plane*numbered 59, named *ShuShu*, assigned to Norman McDonald from: http://raf-112-squadron.org/325thfghonor_roll.html 1,3.45 6./JG 52 Lt P-51 Raum Stuhlweißenburg, (The story is in the book "Esau" of Heinz Evald, page 114. he said that crashed near Hajmáskér, East of Veszprém) _____ _____ W N 70 info from: Johannes and the web: http://www.lwag.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-729.html in the second web they comment some info about Eduard Pitzl 1./JG53 claim but were wrong because this claim was in Karlsruhe area.... not Hungary enjoy, regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor,
Thanks ! Very interesting information. You could specify in more detail Soviet losses (La-5): 02.01, 22.01 and 30.01.45 (time battle (Moscow or local), area and reason losses, fate of the pilots). Best Regards, Alfred |
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