Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - German night fighter top aces by plane

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Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMoz99 (Post 251476)

The photo Nick refers to is captioned as being taken at the end of 1943. At that time Wittgenstein was probably still Kdr II./NJG3, which had a mixture of Bf110, Ju88, Do217 and even a Me210 or 2. Other units he served with also had a mixture of aircraft available, so it is quite possible he did score in types other than just Ju88. Because of the mixture of available aircraft, even knowing the dates of his claims won't help. So without logbooks ......
Note Wiki has a list of his victories.
Note also the Wiki article states W never flew a Bf110 after June 1943 (cites references) but it is unclear whether he flew one operationally before then.
I never realised he flew 150 bomber combat missions before transferring to night fighters.
Cheers
Peter

These are the victories Wittgenstein claimed in the final months of 1943,

18.10.43/2035 Lancaster ("Viermot") Hanover @ 6200m Bomber Command. (Note that this night's raid was an all-Lancaster affair, there were 18 Lancasters lost = 5.0% of the attacking force, versus 20 German victory claims, so at least 2 victory claims are not valid)

22.10.43/2110 Halifax V ("Viermot") 10-20km NNW of Kassel @ 4000m Probably LK664/MP-U of 76 sqn. Lt. L E Hulthin RNAF and crew all KIA

22.10.43/2135 Viermot Frankfurt (Tony Wood) or Paderborn (Boiten) @ 6100m. Bomber Command, 43 losses of 25 Lancasters and 18 Halifaxes (7.6%) versus 54 German victory claims, so at least 9 victory claims are not valid.

So if he claimed a victory at all in the Me110, it would be one of these, provided Werner Held's dating of the photo is correct (end of 1943)

Sources:
Nachtjagd War Diaries vol 1 by Boiten
Tony Wood lists
Bomber Command War Diaries by Middlebrook and Everitt

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

Quote:

Originally Posted by knusel (Post 251505)

Good morning Peter,

never mind him. I use to skip his "posts".

If memory doesn't play tricks on me I read somewhere that Wittgenstein flew but one single mission in a Bf110. I'll try to relocate that source.

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Michael,

Could the following be the source of your observation?

"Heinrich (zu Sayn-Wittgenstein), was stationed at Gilze-Rijen where the order came to convert to the Bf 110. Apparently, the Prinz and Herbert flew in the Bf 110 for one brief flight only, but that night, in late May, the aircraft suffered a technical problem and was deemed unserviceable. Not ones for remaining idle, they took off in their usual Ju 88 C and shot down four Lancasters*! Prinz Heinrich never flew another Bf 110 again, preferring to fly his Ju 88. He was able to achieve this by employing his status and seniority, thereby circumventing usual restrictions."

See:
Princes of Darkness The Lives of Luftwaffe night fighter aces Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein and Egmont Prinz zur Lippe-Weissenfeld.
Knott,Claire Rose
Hersham:Classic,2008
pp.74-6

* Claims for four Lancasters doubtful. Date possibly 25 June, 1943 - 4 claims, only one was a Lancaster (Luftwaffe Aces 4/Mathews & Foreman/pp.1092-3).

Col.

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

I go on holiday for a week and another fight starts … so here is something useful on Wikipedia which all concerned might like to read:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

Nick Beale, selectively deleting posts is not the answer.

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

Dear Col Bruggy,

thanks. Yes, I think that was the story but I read an except only and do not own the book.
Can you tell me the date of that Bf110 mission ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMoz99 (Post 251548)

Nick Beale, selectively deleting posts is not the answer.

Merely an expedient (trying to keep acrimony to a minimum on the public forum) but if you can suggest a course of action that is fair and doesn't involve the moderators taking sides with any of the parties to this dispute then of course we'll consider it.

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

Quote:

Originally Posted by knusel (Post 251550)

Dear Col Bruggy,

thanks. Yes, I think that was the story but I read an except only and do not own the book.
Can you tell me the date of that Bf110 mission ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Michael,

The author (Knott), does not make it clear which day in May (1943), she is referring too. She simply states, "Late May".

Col.

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

Good morning Col Bruggy,

thanks for checking.
The only May1943 kill of Wittgenstein that I know of is the DB-3 on 2May.
OSPREY wanted to publish an Aircraft of the Aces volume about the Ju88 but I think there has been a delay.

Michael

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

Quote:

Originally Posted by knusel (Post 251580)

Well why not avail yourself of the current series on the Nightfighters that Theo Boiten is working on?

https://www.wingleader.co.uk/series/...combat-archive

Here are the advantages:
1) All known kills
2) All known losses
3) All types
4) All fronts
5) Because of points 1-4, your questions to the forum will come from a much better-informed viewpoint. That is to EVERYBODY's advantage
6) The guy who conducted the interviews and gathered all the info (...did all the hard work, all the REAL work, spent all the real money and the real time on it all....) is the guy who gets to make a profit from your purchase and not somebody passing on the same info 2nd hand a few years down the track. Be as offended as you like, but that is OSPREY's stock-in-hand...
7) The author is a member of this very forum so if anything is at all unclear after reading the volumes, you can address a question to him personally

Sure, it might cost you a little more per volume than Osprey but I am getting round that by purchasing mine on lay-by and I can't wait to finish paying off the first two volumes...

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane

Good morning,

was Friedrich-Karl "Nasen-" Müller flying a Bf109 or an Fw190 in January and February 1945 ?

Cheers,

Michael