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- - Late-war Bf 109 question (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=4691)

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Your version of 18 March events is simplistic to say the least. ;)

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

I know Franek :) I could write it in more - much more - detail but that'd take a good few paragraphs and wouldn't help us finding Bill Lyons' victim of 9 February ;)

I'm in contact with one of the pilots that was involved and I have the Pilot Encounter Reports for the day. Also I have several books of the 359th FG and scans of the somewhat inaccurate AirFan article. The 359th FG historian has been a great help to me in finding out more about this incident. If anybody wants to know more, I'm happy to assist.

The bottom line is that is was a very chaotic event where lots of things happened that shouldn't have happened. Good example of the fog of war... :)

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

After extensively picking Mr Lyons' memory, I think we'd need to look for Me 109s though. Apart from the wing gun firing, everything seems to match an Me 109 better. Also, both Meroney identified it as an Me 109 and the whole squadron watched the guncam footage and it was confirmed as a 109. Without the actual guncam footage we can never be 100% sure...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

I seem too have a few additional losses for this date.

Your listing has 21, I have 39 losses listed for 109's on this date.

Are the additional ones of interest or have you already looked at them and counted them out of the ones that are possible for this action?

Andreas, would you be able to list the additional Me 109 losses for this date? I feel we may need to look beyond JG 300 for this one...
Many thanks in advance!

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Thanks very much Andreas! I'll have a good look over these tonight.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Excellent listing, Andreas. There is possibly a tiny problem in the last a/c shown on page 1, in that by this time, a G-14 would have had a 6-digit number rather than a 5-digit number, as shown.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Hi, George.

Yes, I am aware of it, all the comments with regards to the reference is not shown on this overview page, but does turn up in the detail page for this specific loss.

There are numerous entries when you look at the records at large that one naturally will see right away are erroneous, the problem of course being that the records are not available from April 1st through VE Day (and later....), and subsequent corrections will then not be available.

The loss system was based on the units reporting their losses to the higher headquarters, and there must have been some kind of feedback loop involved as the correction and amendment system was quite exensively used. It also seems to be a fact that some units were exemplary with regards to reporting correctly, while others were terrible (I think Ergänzungsjagdgeschwader 2 were terrible at some times late in the war... for some report days you are lucky if the WNr resembles vaguely the correct one... I am exaggerating but you get the point)

That is why I in the database system have room for entering also all the corrections and amendments along with other references dynamically, so a single loss could possibly have the original loss, several corrections and/or amendments from the GenQu6Abt lists and finally a few additions or corrections from other sources like a Namentliche Verlustemeldung, a book or a photograph.

The overview entry will reflect what we know as of today, the entry would naturally be updated if other sources correcting the entry surfaced.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Where was III/JG 4 based on this date? I have "Drewitz". Is this the Drewitz near Magdeburg?

According to Andreas' records III/JG 4 lost one Me 109 G-14, Werkenr.465330, flown by Lt. Dietrich Bartsch (MIA). Location unknown, damage 100%.

Does anybody have more details?

Besides this loss only the JG 300 machines seem to be valid possibilities but their locations don't seem to match "north of Magdeburg" (except for the one that exploded in mid-air).

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

I think it was the Drewitz 20km N of Cottbus, and Lt. Bartsch was missed after attacking russian troops.

Regards, Heuser

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Thanks Heuser!

I guess that leaves us only with 109s of JG 300, none of which was lost north of Magdeburg, except for the one that exploded and must be excluded as a possibility.

So perhaps it was Brenner's Dora 210909 afterall? I hope someone has more details about that one.
Does anybody know at what time 6/JG 301 took off for their mission and what their target was?

And of course there's always the possibility of a non-recorded loss or mistake in crash location...