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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Alfred,
On January 2, 1945 the Soviets have permanently lost 4 Lavochkin La-5 fighters, 2-2 from both 5 and 17 VA: 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, La-5FN, Aleksei Ignatevich Roi (OK, next day returned) damaged in dogfight in the Tata area, then belly-landed. 8 La-5 under the command of Kalchenko. – “8 ла-5, вед Кальченко, прикрытие войск в р-не Тата. Подбит ИА, сел на фюзеляж. Самолет разбит, летчик цел. Вернулся 3.1.45” 17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, 2ndsquadron, La-5FN, S/N: 39211844, engine: 8212412, tactical ‘44’, yellow nickname: "H - Moскoвский Колхозник”, Maj. Dmitrii Stepanovich Kravtsov (HSU, WIA) near Dág. - “Сбит ИА, тяжело ранен. 12:45 над Будапештом сопровождали Ил-2. Бой с 8 Ме-109. Отсечен от группы и сбит в районе Даг.”– He was shot down by Hungarian Fw 190F-8 (markings: W-521) fighter-bomber pilot, Horváth Sándor szkv. (102/1. squadron) over Dág. 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN, S/N: 41210115, tactical ‘15’, ml.l-t Nikolai Lukyanovich Vereshak (OK) – “6 Ла-5 вед ГСС Скляров прикрытие с бомбометанием Будапешт. Потерял группу, израсходовал горючее, вместо аэр То-Алмаш, сел в 3 км ЮВ Кечкемет. Самолет разбит, летчик цел.” – ran out of fuel, plane broken at Kecskemét-SE, 3 km, while escorting 5 VA, 218 BAD Douglas A-20G Boston bombers over Budapest from Debrecen. 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP, La-5UTI, a two-seater fighter-trainer version of La-5F, S/N: 39215298, engine: 65021916, tactical ‘98’ on the airfield of Örkény in an accident, 2 KIFA. m-r Gurii Ivanovich Rodionov (KIFA, 1909-1945) and ml.l-t Aleksandr Fedorovich Hramov (KIFA, 1922-1945) On January 22, 1945 the Soviet 17th Air Army has permanently lost 4 Lavochkin La-5 fighters: 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 41210109, tactical ‘09’, ml.l-t Vasilii Maximovich Boltyan (OK) –crashed on his own airfield after a dogfight with 6 Bf 109Gs: “Подбит ИА, сел на фюзеляж на свой аэродром. Самолет разбит и сгорел, летчик цел. 4 ла-5 и 5 Ил-2 в район Шарико. Атакованы 6 Ме. Поврежден, сел в районе аэр в саду.” 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, 1st squadron, La-5FN, S/N: 39211687, engine: 8212228, tactical ‘87’, st.l-t Georgii Konstantinovich Zolotarskii (POW, liberated, after WWII returned home) – lost on recce. mission over the Gárdony-Börgönd-Sárisáp-Perkáta area near Adony-Pusztaszabolcs: “11:55 с ведомым Планкевичем на разведку в р-н Гардонь, Бергенд, Шаришап и Перката. Через 15 м после взлета Золотарский передал о бое с 8 Ме-109. Сел на вынужденную на вражеской территории, был в конц лагере, вернулся в июне 1945 в СССР.” 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, 1st squadron, La-5FN, S/N: 39212516, engine: 8213222, tactical ‘16’, ml.l-t Ivan Danilovich Plankevich (MIA) – lost on recce. mission over the Gárdony-Börgönd-Sárisáp-Perkáta area near Adony-Pusztaszabolcs: “11:55 с ведущим Золотарским на разведку в р-н Гардонь, Бергенд, Шаришап и Перката. Через 15 м после взлета Золотарский передал о бое с 8 Ме-109.” 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, La-5F, S/N: 39215251, engine: 65033094, tactical ‘51’, l-t Vasilii Savelevich Svistelnikov (OK) – crashlanded at Pázmánd-E after a dogfight with battle damages. “Подбит ИА, сел на фюзеляж в районе восточнее Пазманд. Самолет разбит, летчик цел.” On January 30, 1945 the Soviet 17th Air Army has permanently lost 3 Lavochkin La-5FN fighters: 17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39211156, engine: 8211268, tactical ‘56’, ml.l-t Mihail Stepanovich Derevnin (KIA, 1923-1945) at Taksony in dogfight with 6 Bf 109Gs in the Kajászó (Szentpéter) -Kisvelence area. “Сбит в воздушном бою, летчик погиб. 12:36 - 13:15 4 Ла-5 вед Цыкин прикрывал в р-не Сентпетр-Кишвеленце. В конце патрулирования встретили 6 Ме-109 Н-1500 м. Деревнин отстал от ведущего, задымил и с пикирования ударился о землю. Калинин сбил Ме. Деревнин найден убитым и похоронен при части. упал в р-не Такшoн” 17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39211768, engine: 8212330, tactical ‘68’, l-t Ilya Martemyanovich Dudarev (MIA, 1923-1945) at Csiribpuszta, Agárd-SE in a dogfight – “Сбит в воздушном бою, летчик выпрыгнул с парашютом над территорией противника. Судьба неизвестна.т 15:05 - 15:45 4 Ла-5 вед Смирнов прикрытие Каполнаш-Ниек, Сентпетр. В районе Граф Н-1500 встретили 4 Ю-88, 6 Ме-109. Цыкин сбил 1 Ме, Дударева сбили, выбросился с парашютом с высоты 4000 м. упал в р-не Чириб” 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 392124100, engine: 8213166, tactical ‘100’, ml.l-t Aleksandr Petrovich Smirnov (OK) at Madocsa. “Сел на аэродроме по льду выкатился попал в канавую Сломан фюзеляж аэр Мадоча 18:25 разбит, цел” Times are Moscow locals in reports. Other planes were max. damaged in combat, but not lost. I hope this helps. Regards, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Note, that MANY locations (or at least names) in soviet reports do not exist anymore, so you will never find them in recent maps or Google Earth. Soviet reports were based on VEEERY detailed military maps, showing even farms or farm-centres in the area which sometimes disappeared after the war. Another issue is the (sometimes politically motivated) name-changes during post-war Communism. One report in my prev. comments eg. mentioned 'Saint-Peter'. (Сентпетр) This was actually 'Kajászószentpéter' (Kayaso-St-Peter), or just Szentpéter (Saint-Peter) in short. During communism 'Saint-Peter' disappeared from the name, so now you find only Kajászó in recent maps, not Szentpeter, just like in original soviet combat report! Since I have copies of many original soviet 1944-1945 military maps of Hungary, I was able to identify many dogfight and crash locations specified in combat reports, but I am telling you, sometimes it took for a long time...! :) ...finally: see draft of ml.l-t Aleksandr Petrovich Smirnov's La-5FN (No.392124100) crash-landing at Madocsa airfield, Hungary on January 30, 1945 from his accident investigation file at TsAMO Military archives at Podolsk, Russia. Note short version of his La-5 serial (24100) in report's header. (The beginning part of usual La-5 serials '3921' meant only factory and AC model: 39 was factory code of the La-5, 21 meant Gorky factory (Factory no.21 in Gorky). Combat reports sometimes used only the 'real' plane-serials, so only the short batch and plane ID part of the digits, like here: 24100. Gabor PS: folks, looks like I am running out of attachment space, what to do now...? :o |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gospodin Gabor !
I red the aerodrome plate or chart you name it.....how on the earth you get access to all this rare stuff ? Do you have any similar period 1944 -45 such as Oradea, Medias, Debrecen, Satu Mare ? |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
I have soviet 1944-45 airfield maps of Börgönd, Érsekcsanád, Taszár, Kiskunlacháza, but not for the ones you mentioned. :-(((
As a member of the researcher-team of the Szolnok Aircraft Museum, we work together with Russian researchers and friends/colleagues on the mutual aviation history of our Countries and Air Forces during WWII. Soviet records are from them. Telling you, the Russian TsAMO archives is a real W-O-N-D-E-R-L-A-N-D!!! :) Regards, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
5./JG 52 ace, Friedrich Haas' list for Hungary in 1944: 16/10/1944 ......... Jak-11 -probably Yak-9T(M), S/N: 2715334, engine: 425-49, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, l-t. Dmitrii Nikolaevich Maximenkov (KIA-KIFA) - returned with combat damages and crashed on Torda/Turda airfield "при возвращении с БЗ был ранен, потерял сознание и разбился на 3-м заходе. катастрофа над аэр. Турда" 18/10/1944 ......... Jak-11 -Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (3 Yak losses few hrs. later, - not his opponents!) 19/10/1944 ......... LaGG-5 Perhaps 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP La-5FN, S/N: 39212311, gv.capt. Semenov (MIA) 30/10/1944 ......... LaGG-5 Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. 01/11/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged (more damaged Yaks this day!) 23/11/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Yak-1B, S/N: 32161, engine: 355-1983, tactical '1', 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, ml.l-t Titov. Returned from dogfight, plane broke. 23/11/1944 ......... Il-2mH. Probably IL-2m3, 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 187 GvShAP, S/N: 12260, gv.ml.l-t Grilev (POW, later escaped) 05/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. 05/12/1944 ......... Il-2mH. Perhaps IL-2m3, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP 11/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. Reported time is too early! 11/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. Reported time is too early! 20/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Lack of info, perhaps a Yak-1B of 5 VA, 331 IAD? Don't know. 20/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. 21/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Hard question. Perhaps a 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP Yak-9DD, S/N: 0115311, ml.l-t Kostin (WIA) 21/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Hard question. Perhaps a 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP Yak-9DD, S/N: 0115315, st.l-t Sosnikov returned on the 25th. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor
Yes Érsekcsanád could be of interest....regarding Gryalev B.Dimitrievitch ,where was he held POW , when he escaped ...are there any documents ? All what I have is not returned from mission |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
гв.мл.л-т Грылев Борис Дмитриевич
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
I read somewhere that he was captured, but later escaped. But: this info was not part of soviet combat record: 9 IL-2 (commander: Feoktistov) protected by 4 La-5s attacked Apc area. When leaving the target, 4 'Fw 190's attacked them and Grilev's plane got downed. (Good chance that AC type was misidentified.)
"12:45 9 Ил-2 вед к-н Феоктистов и 4 Ла-5 взлет на цель Апч. В 13:20 при подходе к Хатван перенацелены на лес в 4 км севернее Хатван. Перестраивались в пеленг на Н-1000 м. В это время атакованы 4 ФВ--190, по правому ведомому замыкающего звена Афанасьеву, безуспешно. 1 ФВ атаковал Грылева, но Афанасьев его подбил. Ил-2 стали перестраиваться в правый круг, опять атака ФВ. Афанасьев ушел с курсом 180 гр на свою территорию и сел на колеса в Надькереш. 10 минут атковали круг, 1 ФВ атака изнутри круга на Ничипорук, его стрелок Волков сбил ФВ, который упал и сгорел. Грылев подбит и ушел с дымящимся мотором на свою территорию. НБЗ. Плюс еще сбили 1 ФВ и 1 Ме-109." |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Yes, I remembered right, first Grilev was taken POW. This doc mentions the partisans, etc...
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Just some marginal data. On September 23, 1944 SG 2 Fw 190F pilots (Obstlt. Hans-Ulrich Rudel, Hptm. Karl Kennel, Uffz. Koppenhöfer) claimed 3 IL-2s in the Torda/Turda area. This day 5 VA, 7 GvShAD has lost 3 IL-2s indeed as follows: 5 VA, 130 GvShAP, IL-2, gv.ml.l-t Kravchenko 5 VA, 131 GvShAP, IL-2, gv.l-t Puhov 5 VA, 131 GvShAP, IL-2, gv.r-y Arkaev Mechanical paper of 5 VA, 7 GvShAD (without crew lists) erased 7 IL-2s (as prev. days' losses) between October 1-15, 1944 to AAA (which, of course, -partially- could be dogfight as well): IL-2m3, S/N: 10338 IL-2m3, S/N: 302787 IL-2m3, S/N: 302949 IL-2m3, S/N: 1873880, engine: 253297 IL-2m3, S/N: 11634, engine: 2510476 IL-2m3, S/N: 1877070 IL-2m3, S/N: 302765 No further info on matching crews, but chances are the 3 IL-2 losses listed above were among the 7 written-off serials of the 7 GvShAD. I think reported SG 2 claims could be correct this time. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor
Thanks for the info, the report doesn't state from which POW camp or captivity type escaped......thanks anyways |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Correct. It doesn't state it. (But for my research, it is completely irrelevant :))
Cheers, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
IL-2 No.1877070 can be taken out from the list of the potential SG2 victims on September 23, 1944. It was lost on October 1, 1944 at Torda/Turda-S, 3 km from 5 VA, 130 GvShAP. ml.l-t Semeryakov bailed out, gunner was killed. Plane was hit by flak over Torda/Turda-N, 5 km at Foleuchul(???) at 400 m altitude at 12:20, Moscow time.
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
I think the location is Feleacul, only remark would be that it's ~ 20km N of Turda
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Yep, that could be it. Tx. But plane crashed far in the south.
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Here is 1./SG 10 Fw 190F pilot, Oblt. Pohl’s list for 1944 over Hungary. So far he was the most reliable German fighter pilot I found (with more than 5 victories, which could be considered as a reliable ‘tendency’, not just a blind-luck with a single claim). Based on his ~100% accurate claims, Oblt. Pohl was a real ‘Lipfert category’, trustworthy (ace and) pilot: Date:..............Reported AC:…..Real victim: 20.10.1944.......Fortress II........B-17G-60-BO, Fortress III, S/N: 42-102869, 15 USAAF, 5 BW, 483 BG, 2Lt. George B. Potter’s crew (O-822801, POW) 07.11.1944.......Yak-9..............Yak-3, S/N: 3214 (3229214), 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, gv.l-t Pyankov (WIA) 17.11.1944.......U-2.................Po-2, S/N: 7352, engine: 12042, 17 VA, 262 NBAD, 97 GvNBAP, gv.p.p-k Styazhkov – gv.capt. Strik crew (OK) 20.11.1944.......La-5................La-5FN, S/N: 39212001, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, ml.l-t Strukov (OK) 20.11.1944.......La-5................Perhaps La-5, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, l-t Kuptsov (OK) – returned to airfield and broke 08.12.1944.......Boston III.........A-20B-DL, S/N: 41-3189, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 260 BAP, ml.l-t Zaitsev crew (3 MIA, 1 returned) 08.12.1944.......Boston III.........A-20G-20-DO, S/N: 42-86671, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 260 BAP, ml.l-t Kiryuhin crew (4 MIA) Gabor PS: What was his full name? |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Quote:
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Ofw. Paul Günther, 9./SG 10 had a single La-5 victory over Hungary on October 6, 1944. His victim can be identified as ст.л-т Кононов Анатолий Петрович (returned) in his La-5FN, S/N: 39211147, engine: 8211299, tactical '47' from 5 VA, 279 IAD, 486 IAP. IL-2s and their La-5 escort met 8 Fw 190Fs in the Békéscsaba area. Kononov was downed, he bailed out, and returned the next day on October 7, 1944. (Ofw. Günther had more claims earlier, but still out of Hungary so I am not able to verify those.) Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Maxim1,
Thank you. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Here is the 1944 list for 6./JG 52 pilot, Obfhr. Steins over Hungary. Date:..............Reported AC:…..Real victim: 23.10.1944.........IL-2mH........IL-2m3, S/N: 1873563, 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 131 GvShAP, гв.л-т Зубов Виктор Петрович, his gunner: MIA! - after dogfight broke on airfield. 27.10.1944.........Yak-7..........Found no such loss, probably just damaged. 11.12.1944.........Yak-9..........Found no such loss, -PROBABLY- just damaged. (A confusing day, - messy data, needs further investigation.) Gabor PS: Other 2 IL-2s of 131 GvShAP on October 23, 1944 fell to Lipfert. (S/N: 10620 and 302820) At the same time, IL-2 No.18753100 of 5 VA, 132 GvShAP fell probably to Peter Düttmann.) |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Here is Oblt. Norbert Schmitt’s list for 1944 over Hungary (3./SG 10, Fw 190F): Date:............Reported AC:…..Real victim: 19.11.1944.......Yak-9............Found no such loss, probably just damaged. (Only known Yak was in an airfield accident, not a combat loss.) 17.12.1944.......Yak-9............Found no such loss, probably just damaged. (Perhaps a 17 VA, 288 IAD Yak-9D) 25.12.1944.......R-5...............Po-2, S/N: 14821, engine: 00532, 17 VA, 282 OAPS, ml.l-t Afanasiev's crew of 2 (OK) during landing. 08.12.1944.......Boston III.......A-20B-DL, S/N: 41-3648, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 260 BAP, m-r Makkeev's crew (4 returned, including 1 WIA) Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Here is Ltn. Otto Dommeratzkt’s incomplete(!) list for 1944 (6./SG 2, Fw 190F). Since he claimed his victories still early, my records are incomplete. I had the following planes in my loss-lists which might match his claims, but chances are other units had losses too which I was not aware of. Note, that 873 ShAP later became 188 GvShAP of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD. 165 GvShAP also lost 4 IL-2s (Mamaev, Krilov, Karashev, and Sharov at Tordatúr/Tureni area) this day while still with the 5 VA (before transfer to 17 VA): Date:............Reported AC:…..Real victim: 19.09.1944.......Boston III......Probably Douglas A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54280, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, l-t Finogenov (KIA) - Or perhaps Oblt. Behnkau's claim (III/JG 51)???? Note, only ONE 5 VA Boston loss this day, so one of them was an overclaim!!! 22.09.1944.......IL-2..............probably IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 231 ShAD, 873 ShAP 22.09.1944.......IL-2..............probably IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 231 ShAD, 873 ShAP 22.09.1944.......IL-2..............probably IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 231 ShAD, 873 ShAP (The 3 873 ShAP, 2nd squadron IL-2 losses: S/N: No.1873376/engine: 252359-ml.l-t Kazmin, No.8485/engine: 252085-ml.l-t Klochko, or No.9081/engine: 253460-Sherbak, repaired on airfield. Note, that IL-2 No.8485 was hit by flak earlier on May 12, 1944 and was repaired on their airfield. See below.) Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
Here is Uffz. Werner Röde's incomplete, soviet list for 1944 (5./JG 52, Bf 109G): Date:............Reported AC:…..Real victim: 20.09.1944.......Boston III......Douglas A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54200, engines: 42-82843 and 42-82868, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, st.l-t Nikolaev (4KIA) in Kisselyk/Şeica Mică area. 22.09.1944.......Il-2 m.H........Perhaps IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 165 GvShAP, or 873 ShAP, or...? (See prev. comments.) Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
...and a "SUPER-OVERCLAIM", made by JG 51 Bf 109G pilots on soviet Boston bombers on September 22, 1944 - according to Tony Wood's claim-list: Hptm. Joachim Brendel............27 491: at 2.000 m Oblt. ?.................................27 455: at 600 m. 10.28 Ofw. Friedrich Simon..............27 449: at 400 m. 10.29 Ltn. Anton Hafner..................27 422: at 1.000 m. 10.29 Uffz. Mölders........................27 487: at 1.200 m. 10.30 Ofw. Josef Gäbl.....................27 485: at 1.200 m. 10.31 BUT: the 5 VA has lost only a single Boston this day! Douglas A-20G-45-DO Boston, S/N: 43-21689, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, 1st squadron (probably: Red '5', since Mr. Malov told me this 2 years ago in 2012, but because he crashed at least 2 Bostons, it is not clear if all of his planes were actually red '5'. His other A-20G was red '5' at least in Hungary.), l-t Ivan Aleksandrovich Malov's crew (4 returned OK) AC type is interesting. It says: А-20C-45до, not the typical 'А-20Ж' for the A-20G model. Serial is obvious, but some A-20G planes got A-20B or A-20C nose for better view as a field modification for recce. missions. Usually the 1st (red) Sq. of the group performed such missions, so maybe this A-20G had a modified, A-20C "greenhouse" nose??????? ...and this plane still could crash-land on their airfield due to combat damages! Bostons were not so easy to shoot down. They frequently escaped even with 'horror' damages... So I have no idea who shot 43-21689 down. Pick your own choice :-)))))))) Gabor |
German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hello HGabor
I wish to thank you for your excellent contributions towards understanding the relationship between German claims and Russian losses over Hungary in 1944. It has been most interesting and valuable information to all of us attempting to gain a clear understanding for the truth of the air war in that area at that time. I must say that I have read that the 22 September 1944 action involving III./JG 51 occurred off the Courland coast and the Russian unit engaged was 1 GMTAP, VVS-KBF which lost three aircraft shot down and possibly an unknown number damaged. Nokose wrote about this air battle and its results on post #2 at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=7737. Any comments or corrections to my misunderstanding are welcome. Horrido! Leo |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Leo,
Thank you so much for pointing out this huge geographical difference! This was my SUPER-MISTAKE! I am sorry guys, but I did not realize that another part of JG 51 was fighting in the area, not the pilots' unit, mentioned above. Maybe their claims were correct and the soviets really lost those planes. Since I have no records for the Northern area, I cannot verify that. Sorry again, Gabor PS: Does anybody know then who damaged (and destroyed) 43-21689 of the 5th VA in the South? |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi,
the pilots of III./JG51 downed 3 A-20 bombers and 1 of the escorting Yak-9 aircraft. Regards Robert |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
From what I picked up in a Russian source it was 3 A-20 from 3 GMTAP KBF and 3 A-20 from 51 MTAP KBF but no idea on the fighter escort unit.
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Yes, looks like the 51 MTAP KBF has lost 3 A-20 Bostons to III/JG 51 fighters on September 22, 1944 indeed. (Zhilenkov's, Baranov's, Permyakov's crews - 9 KIA) Their total loss that day was 5 Bostons!
http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Morozov/Losses.html Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Quote:
these A-20 were from 1 GMTAP and Jak-9 was from 21 IAP. Regards Robert |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi Gabor,
yes they are the crews in question but my both books list them under 1 GMTAP. Must be an error. Regards Robert |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Quote:
BTW. I have always had great respect for your work. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi Folks,
Checked Heinz Ewald's IL-2mH claim on March 14, 1945 in the Székesfehérvár area, around 13:00 local time. Here are the verified IL-2 losses from soviet records with the calculated local times. (Originals in Moscow time.) Locations spread in ~100 km radius: 14:20, flak 14:35, fighter (2 'Fw 190') 17:10, fighter 17:25, fighter (2 Bf 109) 16:44, flak 15:00, fighter 17:08, flak 14:20, flak 11:56, fighter There were 5 more IL-2 losses to flak without specified times. Closest confirmed loss was: 17 VA, 96 OKRAP IL-2KR, photo-recce. plane, S/N: 11933, (AM-38F engine No.: 2511646) at 11:56 local time, downed by fighter at 1000 m altitude at Pákozd-NW, 2 km (at Székesfehérvár-E). Pilot, Ml.Lt. Leonid Semenovich Kulikovskii went down with the plane, but wounded observer, Lt.(!) Vasilii Ivanovich Romashin bailed out successfully. But this is still an hour difference from Ewald's claim! The rest is even more. So I am not sure... Gabor |
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