Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Bruce,

Very interesting info you are posting. The July 43 one from JG 77 solved a puzzle for me, which I had never found elsewhere, the time of Steinhoff's P-40 claim.

Much appreciated

Russell

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Thanks Russel, good to get feedback and know the posts are useful.


Bruce

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Further extract from CX/MSS/2872/T16 (see post#199), Luftflotte II Tactical Strength Returns 7/7/43:
"III KG 6 (smudged) ,
JU 88 A4B WORKS NO. 2417 ON 6/7 NOT RETURNED (WORD OR TWO ILLEGIBLE) SEARCH OPERATION"

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

CX/MSS/2872/T6
“RECCE GRUPPE 122 TO A/C SECURITY CENTRE AT 1930/9/7 :-
JU 88 5 M K UP ON TASK AT 1900 HRS.
5 M S UP AT 1835 HRS. FOR CIAMPINO NORTH, OPERATION FROM THERE.
TASK OF THE A/C ( NOTE: singular) RECCE SOUTH FROM SICILY.”

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

CX/MSS/2872
Source for this extract is not given:

“To PIACENZA AIRFIELD ON 5/7:-
Reference airfield security on 6/7.
5 Ju.88, V4+AL, CL, KL, ML, DL, will take off at 0600 from AIRASCA vis RIMINI, ANCONA, FLORENCE back to AIRASCA. Height depends on weather. Please inform aircraft security and Flak. Ju.88 V4+DB arrived 1559.”



(this message is from 1943)

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

CX/MSS/2872
“Senior Signals Officer to ENNA (word or two illegible) SUREN on 9/7:-
Storch damaged in night attack on TAORMINA. No other flying possibility here.
NOTE: Above stamped Div. GOERING.”


(this message is from 1943)

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

CX/MSS/2872
“An incomplete report dated 8/7 from II UDET:-
…..
Ltn. SCHUSTER 20th – 21st, 1 Jak, 1 Lagg 5.
Fw. FRESE 27th, 1 I.L.2
Fw. KLOSS 13th, 1 I.L.2
Fw. TRAPHAN 6th, 1 I.L.2
Uffz. SCHEIBE 4th, 1 (Jak) 1
Uffz. BRINGMANN (smudge) 6th, 1 I.L.2
Uffz. DRAEGER 2nd, 1 I>L>2
Fw. EYRICH 32nd, 1 Jak 1”

(NOTE: this message is from 1943)

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

CX/MSS/2873

“To SEEWIND (Fleigerfuehrer SARDINIA) ic, ON 9/7:
0735 to 08(09) hours, Ju escort from E.21 ((= VENAFIORITA)) to E 17 ((= MILIS)) without contacting enemy…. (rest not seen).”
-
Extract: Ju.52 H 1 C unserviceable on VILLACIDRO airfield.
-
“Communication signed ‘IA’ issued early on 9/7-
A Rotte is to be detailed to go to E 21 after 0745 hours for fighter protection of 4 Ju.52’s from E.21 ((=VENAFIORITA)) to E 5 ((=OTTANA)) or E 17 ((=MILIS))
Note: Source believes the above was sent to CHILIVANI by Fliegerfuehrer SARDINIA.”

(NOTE: this message is from 1943)

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

CX/MSS/2873

“C. in C. SOUTH Chief QM/QM to ((Commandant)) German Armed Forces SICILY QM. At 2000/8/7:-
No. 15395
Took off for CATANIA on 8/7:-
Ju. N1M with
80 serial No. 27A
40 “ “ 27C
40 “ “ 27D
= 2000 kg.
Ju. N2J, N3B, N4C, N4G, all as above.
Ju. P2A with 76 cases (canteen goods) = 912 bottles fruit syrup = 1985 kg. for Rations Office 445 CATANIA.
1 case spare parts for refrigerating plant for Rations Office 2/245 CESENA = 15 kg.
total 2000 kg.
-
On 8/7 from C. in C. SOUTH, Chief QM, QM.1, (ref. 15396) to RUBIN((= 90 Pz. Gren. Div.))IB, O.C. Armed Forces Supplies OLIBA:-
Took off for VENAFIORITA on 8/7:
Ju. P4J with 5000 sand-bags, 5600 paper sand-bags, 50 sand-bag clasps = 2000 kilos.
Ju. P4B with 10 bags of body-belts ((?Leibbinden?)) = 2000 items = 300 kilos. 1 crate HBLN typewriter = 60 kilos for Rations Office 317, OLBIA.
1 crate HBLN = 1 typewriter for Intendant Branch Office C. in C., SOUTH Chief QM = 40 kilos.
1 crate HBLN = 1 typewriter for local commandant OLIBA = 50 kilos.
1 crate HBLN = 1 typewriter for O. C. Armed Forces Supplies OLIBA = 30 kilos.
1 crate S. 325 for Medical Supplies Issuing Station, OLBIA = 35 kilos. Total: 515 kilos.
NOTE: HBLN may be the markings on the crate and stand for Army BERLIN”

(NOTE: this message is from 1943)

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

From 1941:
Extracts from CX.MSS/26
16/6/41, 1/NJG Bf.110 E2, No. 4439 (tropics) sustained 100% damage. Marking L1 + PH.
Obltn. Hans OBERMAYER missing, W/T operator saved by Italian navy, search for pilot ‘unavailing’.

Above incident believed due to engine fault. Near ANAPHI island on recce flight area KYTHERA-CRETE-SCARPANTO-MOLOS

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Extract from CX/MSS/26, 1941:

20/6, I/JG. 27 Bf. 109 C-7 works number 6375 : 100% loss on take off, no injuries.
-
"Field Post No. L 02689 is connected with Field Court Martial of Fliegerfuehrer AFRIKA at present at H.Q. Aerodrome Regional Command BENGASI and can be reached at H.Q. Luftgau Post Office MUNICH. (21/6)"

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Extract from CX/MSS/26, 1941:
Report by Fliegerkorps I on 2/7:
5 Bf. 109 F-2, Works No. 9569, 9583, 9572, 9584 and 9(?558?) are assigned to J.G. 54 from A/c Distributing Station BROMBERG.

-

Same document, re: Eastern Europe-
“O.C. Close Defence Battle Units. IA reported on 1/7 that IV/J.G. 51 had been moved to BARANOWICZE in accordance with the original orders, as the orders cancelling the move had not been received.
Same source had already reported earlier on 1/7 to Fliegerkorps II that IV J.G. 51 and III Stuka (1?) were to be moved forward to MINSK on 2/7, and asked for the allocation of 5 Ju. 52s to each of the Gruppen for the purpose.”

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Extracted from CX/MSS/30 (July 1941)

"On 2/7, Fliegerkorps X issued following orders to Fliegerfueher AFRIKA and the elements at MARITA, RHODES, with reference to yellow markings on a/c:
(1) The yellow markings on the engine cowling and the tail unit will be discontinued with immediate effect for operations in the S.E. area.
(2) A/c engaged on operations in the South Eastern area, i.e. in Luftgau South East and in AFRIKA will have no yellow markings whatever.
(3) When flying into the area of Luftflotten 1, 2, or 4, or into RUMANIA, the order of 24/6 concerning yellow markings will be adhered to."

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Extracted from CX/MSS/31 (July 1941)

“On 1/7 Luftflotte 5 informed the Air Officer for North Norway that it appeared from a report on damage that the He. 60 a/c DA + KX of K.Gr z.b.V 108 had been employed for reconnaissance on 28/4/41. Special employment of this nature should in future only occur after consultation with the L.G.Kdo. or Luftflotte”
-
Also, on 1/7, Ju 52 BI + LA of I/JG 54 was out of service while undergoing a 50 hour test.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Extracted from CX/MSS/31 (July 1941)

“Luftgau 1, ELEUSIS, Abteilung III, informed Operational Training Gruppe, Luftgau 1, on 1/7 that a Ju. 88 B, Works no. 5281, was allotted to the Operational Bomber Training Gruppe, and was in ERDING, ready to be fetched away.”
-
“On 1/7 Fliegerkorps X informed G.A.F. Station SALONIKA that a Ju. 88 a/c P4 + BA, piloted by Hptm. WITTING of H.Q. Fliegerkorps X, had stated from WIEN-ASPERN at 0800/29/6 and had not been known to land in the area. Investigations as to its whereabouts were required.”

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Extracted from CX/MSS/31 (July 1941)

“3 Bf. 110/2 (Trop.) with DB601/A, works nos. 4425,4442, 4448, and Ju 87 R4 (Trop.) works no. 6212 have been assigned to Staff, Stuka 3 by air equipment depot ERDING and are to be fetched 4/7”
-
“On 2/7 Fliegerkorps X inquired of the C. in C. G.A.F. how soon they could reckon on the delivery of 3 Bf 110 E3 a/c with N engines”

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

July 1941, extracts from CX/MSS/31

“Late on 2/7 Ib. (presumably of Fliegerkorps X) reported the loss of a Bf. 110 Works no. 3458, crew Feldwebel SCHOENE and Uffz. ROHDE.”

-Ju 52 movements reported 2/7 :

1Z + JU - CASTEL BENITO to BENINA; arr. 1015
1Z + H5 - TATOI to CATANIA; dep. 1350
1Z + HT - TATOI to CATANIA; arr. 1015
1Z + KW, AW, BW CASTEL BENITO to CATANIA; arr. 0920
1Z + AD, DD, ED, HD, FD, HW - CASTEL BENITO to CATANIA; arr. 0945
1Z + AW, KW, AW, BW - CASTEL BENITO to CATANIA; DEP. 1046
1Z + AD, DD, ED, HD, FD, HW, ET, JN - CASTEL BENITO to CATANIA; dep. 1120
-
separate reports on 2/7 also give these movements:
(unspecified type a/c) 1Z + EV - TATOI to CATANIA dep. 0456
Ju. 52 1Z + EV - TATOI to CATANIA; dep. 0457
Ju. 52 1Z + IT - BENINA to CASTEL BENITO; dep. 1110
-
Felpost Number 40961 = AIR WORKSHOP PLATOON 16

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Information extracted from CX/MSS/38, July 1941:

Ju 88 F6 + NH was mentioned in communication from Flusi (A/c security) FUEURZAUBER to 1 (F) 122.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Information extracted from CX/MSS/36, July 1941:

On 5/7 Flakkorps I reported (report 11, addressed to Luftflotte 2 1a op2 -1C):

"Flakkorps I today shot down it’s 80th a/c and on 4/7 destroyed it’s 47th A.F.V.Flakregiment 101 on 4/7 shot down 4 a/c and destroyed 5 A.F.V.s in addition to the 2 A.F.V.s mentioned in report number 10.
Flakregiment 104 on 3/7 shot down 1a/c."
Ju 88 works no. 6559 crashed on 4/7 at 1810 "[i]near KALODKINA on hitting a tree. The crew were dead and buried.
Report will follow from Fliegerkorps IV."

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Post #212

The Bf109F-2 WNr.9558 was lost on 11-Jul-1941 while in 1./JG53.
Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, VI.2, p.115; Prien, JG 53, I, p.414
Via Georg Morrison.

Regards,
Franck.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

A Bf109 E-7(/Trop), Indeed.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Interesting. I wondered when I typed the 'C - 7' if this was a typo, and have double-checked the original. It clearly says C-7.

I have no further knowledge of this particular a/c but this seems like a good time to shine some light on the process at BP used to compile these reports daily.
The Allied Intelligence Officers at BP used a grading system to show if there was any doubt about the decrypt or possible alternative meanings. If the 'C - 7' had been in question it would have been in brackets like this: (C - 7) and possibly with a letter grading (A), (B) (C) etc. which indicated how confident the compiler was; 'A' being 100% and 'C' being 'likely but use caution'. None of this happened in this passage in this CX/MSS report so the German text said 'C - 7'.

Hopefully posting works numbers will plug some holes in databases. I hope this helps.

Feedback is welcome.


Bruce

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Hi Bruce,

Might be a typo since the loss of this machine is clearly reported (same unit, same day, same cause, same result) at Ain-el-Gazala (Fl.Pl.)

Sources: (via Georg Morrison)
Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, V, p.375; Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer, Stab & I./JG 27, p.540

Regards,
Franck.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

THE ULTRA "R" SERIES:

This is only my 3rd question out of nearly 7,000 posts on TOCH since 2001 using three different screen names, so my hopes are running high. :shock: :grin:

Here it is: I have researched my way through all of DEFE 3 and a great deal of HW 5, thanks to Andrew Arthy, "Sam" from Texas and several other kind colleagues. But I have never seen or much less researched the ULTRA "R" series (sample citation: MSS/R. 283(C)/32). QUESTION: is this series available online from BNA? If not, has anyone ever digitally photographed it and put it on CDs/DVDs? The "R" series seems to contain a lot of detailed information that, at the time, Bletchley considered too minor or too old to put in the main ULTRA CX/MSS/Txxx series.

Any information on this would be greatly appreciated!

Larry de Zeng

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Larry

My response for what it's worth. This is purely my take and happy for anyone to correct me.

Each HW5 file contains a mixture of T (Teleprint) and R (Report) messages. The R messages which for my own purposes I call 'low grade Ultra' as these weren't distributed. These are split into a number of batches, usually A - D.

Section R.283 appears in HW5/568. I'm not aware of any files containing just R messages.

From my perspective, I find the R messages far more interesting than the T messages.

Regrettably, this material is not available online and one must visit Kew and slowly work through the files. It really is a slow old process. I've been photographing selected portions of these as chunks of the messages are not in my view particularly useful. I appreciate other people's mileage may vary.

I was in contact with Doug before Christmas about making some of these available to you and hope to do so this year.

Steve

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Hello Steve,
Just for clarity, what is your source of the 'R = report' distinction you have quoted?

Regards,
Bruce

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

These reports are on paper in hard-bound volumes and are not online. There are 767 files in the HW 5 series but "only" the first 703 of these are the main ULTRA army/air decrypts (AFAIK all the naval material is online in DEFE 3). I can't begin to estimate how long it would take the photograph all that material (the volumes wouldn't open flat enough to go on a scanner without damage).

The "R" (reports) pages of each file are considerably fewer than the "T" pages (teleprints) but even so it would be an enormous undertaking to photograph just those. It's also worth noting that the Teleprints come in two forms, the wording sent to (e.g.) War Office, Admiralty and "BB" (Broadway Buildings, the wartime HQ of the Secret Intelligence Service) and the less detailed version for overseas commands which you see in DEFE 3.

As you've said, not everything in the Reports appears in the Teleprints but the converse is also true, so you really need both.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

There are repeated references to items being either teleprinted or not teleprinted. I can't remember where I saw that R = reports but it would have been in the files themselves.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Nick - Thanks for your response.

Bruce - Just to follow up on R=Reports, I am pretty sure that this was a by-product of Nick's research and appeared on his site.

The files between HW5/704 and HW5/767 are a mixed bag but mostly useless to Lufties. HW5/767 does contain some interesting material on the late war movements of high-ranking Nazis.

HW5/737 for some reason contains details of a couple of losses which I don't believe are found elsewhere and as such is worth a quick look.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Regarding what "R" and "T" stand for … When I first started on HW 5 files (in 2006), I wrote this in my notes:

HW 5/447 CX/MSS Reports & Teleprints Nos. 113–114

So I guess that is what it said in the catalogue (which may still have been the paper version) at the time.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Thanks Nick, that is what I thought. It may well be that this is the correct way to read the meaning of 'R' and 'T'. The thing is, I am not sure whether or not it is a coincidence that 'R' and 'T' appear in this collection of 'Reports' and 'Teleprints'.

The reason is that there are many reports but only a few have the 'R' in their individual title. Look at the example given by Larry: MSS/R. 283(C)/32. This just does not fit into the strict sequential profile of the bulk of the reports (for example CX/MSS/26 cited in my post #216). I have never spotted a break in the sequence of CX/MSS/ numbers and believe the 'R' series is, somehow, different. I don't have an answer, but I believe they are either from a specific source or were produced in response to specific requests for information.

While I am on the soapbox, it is worth pointing out that the 'T' series are, broadly speaking, reports on naval matters. Certainly in 1943 these were mostly to do with the Mediterranean/Aegean.

Regards,
Bruce

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

On the contrary, they have CX/MSS/R at the head of the page, and then each individual item has a number (I don't have Larry's example but my nearest page is attached.

The first ULTRAS were the CX/FJ series, then at the end of May 1940 this gave way to CX/JQ. At that stage there was no report/teleprint division although some of the reports were marked to indicate that they had been teleprinted.

In July 1941 they changed over to the MSS series. (I know this from the TNA catalogue, I have not looked at any 1941 files so far). MSS = Most Secret Source.

By mid-1942 the files consist of teleprints (e.g. CX/MSS/992/T9) which are individual signals to one or more commands, and alongside each set of these are some pages of numbered paragraphs with a common heading (in this case CX/MSS/992) which correspond directly to what later would be the CX/MSS/R… pages.

That system ends in mid-November 1943 with CX/MSS/3523. From then on, the "CX/MSS/R1(1) para. 1" + "CX/MSS/T1/1" system begins and continues through to the end of the war.

The naval ones I meant are the various ZTP… sub-series (Z = Zip, Admiralty-speak for ULTRA and TP = teleprint): ZTPG, ZTPGM, ZTPGU etc. You will get a few of these on the other files, e.g. where there is an air connection but there are vast numbers in the individual naval files.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Nick

Based upon the files I've looked at, I am in entire agreement as to your first point.

The remainder of your response is very helpful.

Steve

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Now I am intrigued: the top of what page? I have just looked at a hundred pages and didn’t find an example but each page was identified with the CX/MSS number. Since I very rarely copied the first page of the HW5 daily reports, being more focussed on North Africa/South Europe/Southeast Europe which was further inside, I may have completely missed this use of ‘R’. I assume it is there?

Regards,
Bruce

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

See the example I attached to my post. From November 1943 all the pages of the “reports” section that I have seen—which is a lot—have that type of heading: CX/MSS/R, then a number (1 on the first day this system was adopted, 2 on the second day etc.) then a letter from (A)–(E) in brackets denoting the theatre of operations. (A = Germany, B = South, C= West. D and E were used for South East and East but things change as decrypts from Russia dry up and again right at the end of the war when German organisation breaks down)

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Thank you, Nick, as always.

Bruce

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Thank you Steve, Nick and Bruce! You answered my question. I think there is definitely some material in the "R" reports that would be both interesting and useful, but sometimes we just have to step back, sigh, and say that now old and very shop-worn cliché, "it's just a bridge too far." My archive-crawling days are over and were 15 years ago.

BTW, I am almost certain that there is mention of the "R" reports in these and the dozens of other books on the subject as well as in the hundreds of articles published in Cryptologia, International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence, Intelligence and National Security, and other scholarly journals.

Bennett, Ralph. ULTRA in the West: The Normandy Campaign 1944-45. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1979.
Bennett, Ralph. ULTRA and Mediterranean Strategy. New York: William Morrow and Co., 1989.
Hinsley, F.H. et al. British Intelligence in the Second World War. 4 vols. London: HMSO, c.1984-88.
Lewin, Ronald. ULTRA Goes to War: The First Account of World War II’s Greatest Secret Based on Official Documents. New York: Pocket Books, 1980.
Parrish, Thomas. The ULTRA Americans: The U.S. Role in Breaking the Nazi Codes. New York: Stein and Day, 1986.
Sebag-Montefiore, Hugh. Enigma: The Battle for the Code. New York: John Wiley & Sons, 2000.
Welchman, Gordon. The Hut Six Story: Breaking the Enigma Codes. New York: McGraw-Hill Book Co., 1982.

L.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

I understand that all Ultra messages shall be put online in some future. Meanwhile, I find TNA files just too big and too complicated to download to handle. Have you ever thought about breaking them in single frames?

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

If you're talking about the DEFE 3 ULTRAs, I use the online viewer and make screen captures of the ones I want.

Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
 

Nick/Franek,

Recently the National Archives appear to have changed their processes regarding the DEFE3 files and break them down into several sub files for "ease" of downloading.

e.g. DEFE3/831 is 190 mb and is now broken down into 4 files for downloading

A few years ago when I downloaded DEFE3/747 I was provided with 1 file of approx 250mb. When I download that same file tonight they have now reduced the overall file size to 212 mb but broken this into 5 separate files, each of approx 42mb.

While this helps some users it just adds an extra layer into the process as you have to wait while the file is broken down before you can commence the download.