Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Mike - thanks for the latest.

Hi Jack - these are new to me, specially the 'Mad Gunner' - I don't know the story, please enlighten me. Thanks

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian - your Welcome!
Mad Gunner is a true story , I think he was in the 100th BG or 385th BG.
Will look for it - Jack may know.
Mike

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

The complete story of the mad gunner appeared in King's Cliffe remembered a few years back. Ernie Shipman was a good friend and wrote me the complete story of his shot down and capture about 15 typed pages. If you want I'll dig it out.Jack Coonan and I did some salmon fishing on his boat out of Newport before he had a fatal Heart Attack hauling in a big Chinnook. The date was around Jan 3 or 4, 1945 and he lead his flight on some AR-96s and was lining up on his 5th kill whewn Amoss thought he was a silver 109 and shot him in his coolent. Amoss later went down and they met at Stalag Luft 1 I believe.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Yes please, Jack, I would appreciate copies of Ernie Shipman's notes, particularly the shoot down. Where did 'King's Cliffe Remembered' appear - an article? Sorry to be so dumb.

And Mike, if you find anything on the 'Mad Gunner' I would also be grateful. Thanks as ever.

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

The 78th FG P-47 pilot shot down and killed over England by a overly excited squadronmate was 2Lt Roy Wedell of the 83rd FS on March 13, 1944. I believe his P-47 was excavated in the early 90s but I've never heard the ID of the fellow who killed him.Ernie Shipman was shot down by a P-38J on July 31, 1944.I'm sorry but I don't remember the date of the particular issue of King's Cliffe Remembered with the Mad Gunner story. I'll look for it also.I have a lot of material on Coonan but getting clobbered by a friend wasn't a favorite war story of his.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian - I am not sure if the Mad Gunner shot anyone down. He would get delusional and shoot other b - 17s in formation, beleive he was a waist gunner - I know it is in a book I have - I'm on it!
Mike

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks again Mike and Jack, your help much appreciated. Look forward to more information.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian - From " Combat Squadrons , USAF by Maurer- THE BIBLE of Squadrons.
1) 326th Sq.- 328th FG Home Defense USA 1942 - 1944 Disbanded 3/44
362d FG - Headcorn ,England 4/44 - 6/44. Ligneroller, France 7/44
2) 381st Sq. - Staplehurst, England 4/44 - 6/44. Maupertus, France 7/44
Redesignated 161st Tac Recon Sq. 8/44
363d FG - Redesignated Tac Recon Group 8/44
3) 365th Sq. - High Halden , England 4/44 - 6/44 .Cretteville, France 7/44
358th FG
4) 22d Sq. - Kingsnorth , England 4/44 - 7/44. Brucheville,France 8/44
36th FG Aircraft - P-47
5) 412th Sq. - Woodchurch , England 4/44-7/44.
373d FG Tour-En- Bassen ,France 7/44 - 8/44
Cheers,
Mike

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks a million Mike - that's cleared up a few minor queries. What type did the 365th fly at High Halden?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian- 365th flew P - 47s
Mike

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

I have quickly scanned all posts so I don't think I am repeating previous entries (fingers crossed).

On 25 June 1942, Generaloberst Wolfram von Richthofen was on an inspection flight of German positions in Russia when his Storch was fired on by the German 387th Infantry Division, Richthofen's copilot was wounded and the aircraft made an emergency landing (reported in Joel Hayward's Stopped at Stalingrad, which cites Richthofen's diary as the primary source). This book also refers to an incident on 28 June 1942 when an advance company of the Grossdeutschland Division two kilometres east of the Tim River was bombed by Stukas - 16 killed, many wounded and much materiel destroyed. Unfortunately the Stuka unit is not mentioned - perhaps a question for forum members.

A couple of incidents from Focke-Wulf Fw 190 in North Africa, Arthy and Jessen:

• Fw 190 A5 0152 538 from 6/JG 2 shot down on 3 March 1943 by a I/JG 53 Bf 109 while landing, pilot Fw Uberbacher KIA
• Fw 190 A5 0142 515 from 11/SKG 10 shot down by sweeping II/JG 77 Bf 109s on 2 April 1943 while on a fighter bomber mission, pilot Uffz von Zareba KIA

Finally, Don Caldwell's JG 26 War Diary Vol 2 reports Fw 190 D9 210 188 from 5/JG 26 being shot down by a III/JG 1 Bf109 on 24 Dec 1944, Lt Benz KIA. JG 26 War Diary also reports quite a number of incidents of JG 26 aircraft being shot down by German flak, but it's getting late here, so I'll leave it to others to pick these out!

Cheers

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Many thanks Boomerang - some interesting details.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi guys

Just to update one incident about which I enquired - on 22 August 1944 I note that a US light aircraft was allegedly shot down by Allied ground fire near Le Mans. I believed that it might have been a UC-61 attached to 27thFBG. I was wrong. In fact a UC-61A of 27ATG was lost 23 August 1944, but off Prestwick in Scotland. This aircraft (43-14844) crashed into the sea with the loss of the pilot 2/Lt Robert Smillie (0-2044996). I still do not know the identity of the aircraft lost at Le Mans.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Group Captain Gerry Edge (then commanding 253 Squadron) once discussed his shooting down on September 26th 1940 with me, and often attributed it to his No2, P/O Samolinski.

He felt that Samolinski had opened fire to the rear and starboard, touched the rudder and riddled Edges' Hurricane, causing him to bale out. Though in this case, I'm not sure it could be attributed as a 'full on' friendly fire incident.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Andy

Many thanks - I did have a note of this. Do you have a 'fuller' account of the incident? If not, I shall see if I can find his combat report for this date.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Mission 335 Dec 19, 1944 Blechhammer.
B-17 #44-6532 piloted by 1st Lt. Haddon Johnson Jr. My father who is still alive was the bombardier navigator on this flight his name is Richard Hugh Clarke Jr. , 0-751804B. On December 19,1944 this A/C was in the South Oil area at Blechhammer, dropped from formation and lost site. They lost the No. 2 engine and No 4 engine was on fire and lost altitude immediately. The A/C also sustained a direct hit through the right wing fuel tank. They set a south east course hoping to make it to the Russian lines. They skimmed over and around mountains in the Czechoslovakia and nearly crashed head on with a German command plane. They expected an attack from German fighters to pick them off, they didn't expect an attack by two Russian fighters near the Hungarian border. They all believed the attack was pure stupidity as all identifications were given. Kelly the upper turret gunner sent one Russian plane down in smoke and the a parachute. The other plan took off. They crash landed safely in Hungry behind the Russian lines. The crew with the help of the Hungarians, were evacuated back to Italy on Jan 15, 1945.
They were a make up crew:
Crew List
H. Johnson, B Campbell, R. Pilcher, R. Clarke, H.Kelly, E. Storrer, V. Slivka, L Francis, J.Cash

The Hungarian interpreter was a Yugoslav named Payle(Paul) M. Kavacevic, a mining engineer and graduate from the University of Leeds in England. The other interpreter was a Hungarian Jew from Budapest that they called "Joe". Joe was a chemical engineer who escaped from a German labor battalion and was employed in gold mine processing by the Russians. He hadn't heard about his family in Budapest for several years.

This is taken from my father to help anyone. If you would like to contact me please feel free to email me, Rick Clarke at RClarke118@aol.com.

Source:
http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m_6143/tm.htm

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Re Edge, I too spoke to Edge but the incident matches perfectly with a combat and loss from JG 51; Edge was proud that no German ever crept up on him......I leave it to you

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian - Two more for your files.
April 19, 45 - Pilot Lt. Kenneth Horner 364th FG , 385th Sq. Shot down by Russian Fighters , Stuttgart GE. MACR # 14150 Pilot RTD

April 25 , 45 - B -17 # 338191 " Shasta " 303d BG 358th Sq. Pilot
Lt. Earnest Bailey. Shot down by B -17 # 338540 457th BG - 9 RTD.
Mike

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Laurent, Chris and Mike - thanks for the latest.

Mike, do you have a copy of MACR 14150? How's the wife and Dad - hope they've recovered from the flu. I have now, thankfully.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian,
the book "Luftwaffe Aces" by Franz Kurowski ( Stackpole Militaery History Series) 2004 notes in it's chapter on Heinz Bar pp 46 that just prior to the invasion of the west in May 1940, a bf 109 of JG.51 shot down the Fw.58 carrying Generalmajor Von Doring wounding him in the buttocks and slightly injuring one of his aides.
Anyone got any further details ?

Bruce Lander

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian - I don't have the MACR. I got the info from Mighty Eighth Combat Chronology.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks anyway, Mike.

At long last I have received a copy of Olsen's 'Aphrodite Desperate Mission', as recommended by you. Haven't had a chance to read it yet but I am aware it's full of very useful information. One entry I did notice, however (on page 65) mentioned RAF fighters shooting down three B-24s returning late from a mission, circa June/July 1944. Any ideas?

Cheers
Brian

I have since noted that the 34thBG lost four B-24s to 'intruders' on the night of 6/7 June 1944. Any information?

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

James P Deadly testimony on the Net:

"In the Spring of 1945 1 was shot down again, this time over American soil by an American captain while I was towing a target from a P51 for aerial gunnery practice. He flew too close and was over eager to try for a good score! But therein lies another tale."

This probably occured over Florida on 20 March 1945, Deadly was flying the P-51K 44-11814 (at least he is recorded to have an "accident" this day with this aircraft).

Source:
http://www.324thfighter.org/ToTellTh.../telltale.html
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/s...sp?Pilot=Dealy

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

23 Dec 42 Beaufighter (mark unknown, most likely a VIf) V8387 shot down by Spitfire (Mark unknown, most likely a Vb) EP398. Beuafighter was fitted with the only example of A.I. Mk IX radar and was being operated out of RAF Coltishall as part of 'Window' trials. Pilot (unknown) and Radar Operator (Dr Downing of TRE) killed. Pilot of Spitfire (unknown) was Canadian on his first operational sortie.

Source of Info - Station history of RAF Coltishall by Mick Jennings.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Bruce

Thanks - the date of this incident was 17 April 1940 but I don't know the identity of the JG51 pilot concerned. Anyone any ideas?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi BigVern

The Beaufighter (V8387) was flown by Sqn Ldr Henry Mould. He and Flt Lt Dr Downing were the tragic victims of Sgt Norman Gerrand RCAF of 167 Squadron, who also attacked and damaged the second Beaufighter (X7583).

I was interested in your note about a Firefly of NFIS operating from Coltishall against the V-1 carrying Heinkels of III/KG53. This was new to me and I would be intested if you have any further infomation.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian
in W. Harrison's FAIREY FIREFLY The Operational Record. Airlife 1992 ISBN 1 85310 196 6 there is on pp. 53 - 55 some detailled info on Firefly missions against He 111/V-1 combinations.

HTH
Juha

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks Richard & Juha - I will see if I can obtain a copy of Harrison's book.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brain

I'm after informtion about the Fireflies at Coltishall for a Profile, so any info in this direction would be helpful. (I have been told that there is a photo of a Firefly at Coltishall at the FAA Museum archive somewere).

Richard

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello BIGVERN1966
Harrison gives some serials (and crews) to those Fireflies that operated against V-1s and their carriers. There is also a photo on page 54 with caption IIRC that this plane of 746 is like those used against He 111/V-1 combinations.

HTH
Juha

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi guys - thanks.

Richard: could Lt (GL) Davies' pilot have been Lt John Armour RM? This pair flew together earlier and shot down a Do217 while flying a Mosquito of NFIS.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian / Juha

Quote from Coltishall F540 ORB for Firefly NF 1 v He111 / V1 Action on 13.12.44

A Firefly of N.F.I.U., Ford, operating from Coltishall, Lt (Eneale 'best guess at the name')and Lt. Davies, were scrambled at 1826 hours under Hopton (CHL radar 'my quote') control and obtained three or four contacts, one of which was followed and a flying bomb seen, followed by a visual on the E/A for three or four minutes in very bad visibility. A one-second burst was given from 1,000 feet, but the aircraft disappeared into cloud and was lost, no results being observed. The contact was regained at one mile range and the E/A followed, obtaining intermittent visuals in bad weather to very near the enemy coast when, unfortunately engine trouble developed and the Firefly was compelled to return to base, landing at 2020 hours.

Juha, does any of this match up with anything the Harrison book?


Brian, hope this can be of some help

Richard

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello BIGVERN1966
Harrison p. 54 on 12/13 Dec. Lt Jimmy Kneale with Lt G. L. Davies DSC, the serial is not clearly stated (at least I cannot say that am 100% sure but it’s almost midnight here and I have spent 12 hours in archives and library today), but most probably MB419 (BTW the photo is of MB564 and credit of it is given to Lt/Cdr J. H. Kneale)
Then “He recalls the trip: ‘Only on one occasion was a Firefly NF1s cannon fired after a long ASH controlled pursuit in low-lying thick cloud which prevented any visual identification of the target. In the absence of a blind-firing facility this was no more than opportunist attempt, and no result were claimed.’”

HTH
Juha

Ps and thanks for the text from the Coltishall ORB.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

-OFF Topic - should be on V - 1 Flying Bomb countermeasures

Juha

A very big thanks in return. If you could confirm that Serial at a better time of day, tomorrow I've be very greatful. One question about the photo, is the Firefly in normal RN colours for the time, or is it in RAF Night Fighter scheme of Medium Sea Grey and Dark Green (which I know some NF1's were painted in post war).

Richard

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian:

Do you have a date for the Do 217 claim?

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

For Lt. John Ormonde Armour (RM), I have a damaged Ju-88 on Feb 24, 1944 at 2205 hours, in the Basingstoke area, in a Mosquito XII -- serial not given; his radar operator was Lt. William Gray Aitken Shepherd (RN). On July 15, 1944 at 0145 hours he was credited with a Do-217 destroyed, 10 m W of Antwerp, in a Mosquito XIII, again no serial; this time his radar operator was Lt. P R V Wheeler (RNVR) (I must have neglected to look him up in the Navy List). Combat reports for both exist in Air 50/469, and they are listed in the weekly FC Combats and Casualty lists.

Frank.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Yes, it seems pretty sure that it was MB419. Kneale had flown in between a scramble in DT933 on the night of 24/25.11. but had returned (I interpret that to Coltishall) in his usual plane MB419 on night of 9/10.12. but there was no activity on that nigh. Then he and Davies had the mission on 12./13.12.

On the picture, sorry I remembered wrongly, according to the caption the plane in photo is the same type as those used by 746 against He 111 V-1 carriers, so it merely shows what a NF1 looked alike. Anyway the two upper colours are both rather dark. I have not paid much notice on camos of RAF planes, so anyway I’m not a good judge of the colours showed on b/w photos.

HTH
Juha

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Many thanks for the information Frank - on the off chance I might push my luck with you, I'm posting another thread re: a Luftwaffe loss on 24 July 1944. If you're able to have a look, I'd be most grateful.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

I had a little more time to study the subject today.
the whole caption reads as “Firefly NF1 MB564 of No 746 Squadron in 1945. This was the type 746 used for their night interceptions of flying bomb-carrying He IIIs(sic.) in late 1944.”
For other readers, according to Harrison 746 Sqn was NFIU.

On colours, the two upper colours are rather dark and the difference of their darknesses is clearly less than the difference in those b/w photos that I have seen on for ex. 2 TAF and ADGB Spitfires in 44.

HTH
Juha