Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

I found these two W.Nr.'s in JG 52 logs:

W.Nr. 610 527, 18/2/45, II./JG 51
W.Nr. 610 529, 27/1/45, II./JG 51

Possible 'Rosemarie' candidates.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hi folks,

I've uploaded the following machines today:


1. Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 161 742
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

2. Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 164 725
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

3. Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 442 006
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

4. Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 413 607
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

I've also found two question raising Bf 109 K-4 I will post in another specifically thread.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Nice finds! I don't think the Wrk.Nr for Blue 3 is correct though. 413607 would have had a tall tail and the extra bulge below the regular bulge for the Mg131's. The camo looks more like WNF or possibly Mtt.Regensburg.

Cheers! / Anders

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

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Take me home.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

FWIW, the "double" starboard cowl bulge wasn't in reality a characteristic attributable to a particular version other than the G-5. In fact, such modified cowls were built originally for the Bf 109G-5 series to accomodate the pressurization compressor moved to that side once the bigger MG 131s were adopted.

Thus, such little bulge (along with its small airscoop) had sense only for the G-5. Unfortunately such version was built in much lower numbers than foreseen, while the modified cowls were apparently built at a much more "enthusiastic" rate.

The net result was that they were available in much greater numbers than the G-5s, so - not to waste material - it was decided to use them in late G-6/early G-14 batches (which chronologically were being produced when such occurrence happened...).

After all, the same happened a little later with the "double-chinned" (horrible English term, I know) lower engine cowls which, being available in great numbers at MTT Regensburg, were applied on their G-14/ASs though there was no necessity at all of any "chin bulge" on that sub-type.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks Ferdinando, I started writing something similar but it sounded wrong so I deleted it. I know that it's a leftover from G-5 production but I couldn't put together a good explanation as I was in a hurry. :)

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Little more info I dug up:

Me 109G-10 W.Nr.'s 610 300 - 610 600, delivered mid jan./45 to II./JG 51(jan 6/45) and II./JG 52(jan 12/45). JG 51 was disbanded on 12.4.45 (Fels am Wagram airbase).

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks Ferdinando for tidying our G-14 knowledge; decidedly a tough variant to recognize, even more so with intermeshed W.Nr. In the 165xxx-166xxx and 413xxx blocks.

Yo napot kivanok Dénes,
You have to get a Flickr account, then it should work.

Oberst,

I hope you will finally unearth "Rosemarie"'W.Nr! Thanks for ur efforts.

And greetings to all from Lebanon!
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

I have an Flickr account but the links doesn't work ...:confused:

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Finland had G-6 with this feature :)

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Jörg,

This issue was addressed by David Weiss and another person within the posts in this thread. In no position to give you more help as I'm on a field trip in Lebanin, sorry!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Of course it has them. Please read carefully what I wrote...

Such cowlings can be found either on later G-6 and several G-14. Only that the double bulge had no use and meant nothing on those aircraft, being conceived for the G-5 only. That's it.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Ferdinando, any guesses on Rosemaries W.Nr.? I'm guessing 610 XXX. Also, I seen the pilot was Ofw. Richter, however I cannot find any record of him in JG 51 or JG 52? Would you know anything about him? Thanks.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

No way. Guesses on Werke Nummern which can't be seen are a "dangerous" job, IMHO.

Also, I'm not an expert of any kind on Luftwaffe personnel, I'm sorry.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

No problem. Thanks for your help. What I know from post# 207 is that II./JG 51 & II./JG 52 only recieved G-10's from the 610 000 to 610 600 batch. II./JG 51 was transfered to II./JG 52. We know its a WNF built machine, so Its safe to say that 'Rosemarie' was W.Nr.610 XXX. I'm still checking into Ofw.Richter as the pilot. Unfortunatly http://www.don-caldwell.we.bs/claims/tonywood.htm only has records to December, 1944 and there is no Ofw.Richter in either JG 51/52/53.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Greetings,


Interesting post.


I have 267 files of WNF-built Bf109G-10s in my files. Of those supported by photographs, all from the 610XXX Werknummer series feature all black Hakenkreuze. Those from the 611XXX, 612XXX, and 613XXX series invariably feature White/Black Hakenkreuze. If my observations mean anything, I am suspicious that Bf109G-10 “Rosemarie” is not from the 610XXX series.

Years ago, Mr. James V. Crow indicated that the pilot of “Rosemarie” was an, “Ofw. Richter.” I think he learned this information from Mr. Barbas in 1987.

Finally, the painted-over II.Gruppe bar in front of “Rosemarie’s” small white II./JG 52 plane number supports the fact that it last served with II./JG 51. That form of II.Gruppe marking is unique to II./JG 51.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hello,

I considered the white outlined Hakenkreuze on Rosemarie. My theory is that with the damage repair to the rudder and fuse above the tail wheel, either the fin was replaced, or repaired & repainted.

I should add thank you very much for your information!

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

"97" on the rudder of this G-14?

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks again! You wouldn't happen to have anymore info/pics/leads on 'Rosemarie' would you?

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Steve,
Thanks for your informations regarding the 610 xxx - 612 xxx production blocks.

Oberst,
The "97" on the rudder of W.Nr 166 224 was appliedby the US unit which reported all Luftwaffe planes captured or discovered after crashing.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hey thanks for that. I also meant to write G-6, don't know why I wrote G-14. Sorry for the confussion.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

97 is published in Horst Serie of Aero Journal

http://www.aero-journal.com/Camo-Luftwaffe.php

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Ahhh thanks. It was also published in the book ' Model Art 290, Messerschmitt Bf109G/K '.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

I have this publication, great one

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Yes it is a very nice book. I have 43 Luftwaffe books, with my favorites being JaPo - Bf 109 of JG52 in Deutsch Brod, JaPo - Bf 109G-10/U4, & Messerschmitt Bf109 F, G, and K. An Illustrated Study. BTW, I justed ' liked ' your facebook page. Very nice content.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

In regards to the white outlined Hakenkreuze on Rosemarie, Me 109G-10/U4 'black 1' W.Nr.610 583 of II./JG 52 also has the fabled white outlined Hakenkreuze. So it would seem that not all the WNF 610 XXX batches had only a Hakenkreuze w/o the white outline.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hello Oberst,

Regarding your reference to Bf109G-10 WNr. 610583, 1+ Black, and its “fabled white outlined Hakenkreuze,” I thought I was fairly conversant with most of the late-war G-10’s serving with II./JG52. However, your WNr. is new to me. Could you possibly supply me with your source for this? I would love to correct my files with this new information.

Thanks in advance,

Steve Sheflin

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thank you Oberst for Like

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Your Welcome.

Mr. Sheflin,
I believe the reference is in the book ' Aviation Elite 015 - Jagdgeschwader 52 'The Experten' '. There is also a fantastic foto of Erich Hartmann's Me 109G-10(14/AS?) doing a low head-on flyby of their foward airbase.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Oberst,

sorry to nitpick, but I've gone through all the pages of the publication you quote and there is no trace of a G-10 there (if you exclude the close-up of Hartmann next to his last (?) Erla-built G-10 on page 119, but it's of very low quality nonetheless...*).

Could you then precise your source for the photo of W.Nr. 610 583 ?

BTW, the plane doing the head-on low pass was the late G-6 W.Nr.166221 flown by Hartmann in late summer of 1944 and shown also on foot of the same page 111. Contrary to what the caption says, it had the aerial mast, only that in the early versions of 'Erla hood" the mast was part of the canopy, fixed to the rear rim and opening to the right with it.

*(here's a better though small version)
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/235063-2..._1-Hartmann%23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

No worries, if I'm not corrected, then how can I learn? I looked through all 130 pages of the book I mentioned and yep.. can't find W.Nr.610 583. I know I seen it somewhere, I'll have to hunt more.

Awesome picture you posted, I seen somewhere somebody said it was a fake! But obviousely its authentic.

*EDIT*

Pg.49 of JaPo Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10/U4 is where I seen 'black 1' W.Nr.610 583, Unfortunately I was looking at the wrong A/C. One can see the Hakenkreuze on the fin, but its hard to tell whether or not it has the white outline...

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

In fact the tail of "black 1" cannot be seen clearly in any of the images...

So, I guess that you owe some little excuses to Steve Sheflin for the definition "...Me 109G-10/U4 'black 1' W.Nr.610 583 of II./JG 52 also has the fabled white outlined Hakenkreuze...".

Here no one owns any certainties, especially when dealing with Bf 109s and, IMHO, your tone may have been mistaken (I'm sure without intentions) a bit sarcastic with no reason.

If I am wrong, I ask you to forgive me in advance, but - as you already said - we are all here to learn and misunderstandings can be an useless waste of time and serenity.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

That was not my intent. My most sincere appologies if I wrote it in that way.

As far as the pics, like I said before I was looking at the wrong aircraft. Again, my appologies for the confusion on my part.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

FWIW, I did appreciate your reply. Thanks.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Diana built perhaps. IMO the camouflage seems to agree. I could be wrong though. It looks also to have a combination of RLM 75/83.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

WNF-built Bf 109G-10 W.Nr.610 487 was flown by Heinz Ewald of II./JG52. Theres suspose to be a foto of it in one of the Kagero books that show a white outlined Hakenkreuz. Long shot but can anybody confirm? I do not know which Kagero book. Thanks.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Just nice site Marc!

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks Franck,

I try to keep the ball rolling. Just for testing your eyes, try to figure out an unknown Bf 109 K-4 in the latest pic I uploaded ;-))

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hi Marc,

In the scraps? With a 10 000 magnified lense?... No thanks! :).
But five last pictures!!!! Hummm! Tasty! Crunchy ...

No news for the moment concerning Lion's harbor, will check the planes whatever; should be possible for a fast trip.
Some Bf 109 find down there? I don't think so; but bring some pictures and cheese with you; the hard one ... I miss it ... Who knows? ;).

Cheers, Franck.