Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Can you tell me where exaclty this is written? It is not common for a werk number for a simple "part" to be written like this. This is written like a main werk.

I disagree with ju55fk...

You have to remember that all current werk records are based on known "losses" and what was "supposed" to be ordered...they are not a reflection of what was actually ordered and not necessarily the exact production batches that were done...so it could easily be the main werk.

It is extremely unusual to have part number werk numbers written like that...

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Not a great image taken with my phone, but the restored ailerons have arrived in the NASM museum.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi,
I am inclined to agree and seem to recall having seen the same number on another part, but sadly I cannot find the picture. Kim help please. If we find the same "W.Nr" on another part, then we have THE W.Nr, no matter what the sources say.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Harrison - having troubles accessing the net again so this is via iphone. Ón top of the pointy aft part of the nacelle there is a hatch that covers the refueling point for the tank inside. Inside is a recessed panel that the actual refueling point screws into. Along the side of this recessed panel, just inside was where this was written.

Of you look at the danas-have photos, camera 2, Line 17, pictures 2+3 i Think thats what he's looking at. Not completely sure because of my net problems.

I'm interested in the technical aspects of these planes, so werk no etc is not something I've dived into a lot. But I must say that it would puzzle me if the methodical Germans would give sub assemblies werk no's that could be mistaken for full plane want. And this indeed has the shape/size of a full wnr. But again - its not my area

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

I do not know the sources that Harrison uses, but in the recent years there have surfaced other sources than losses. So to find a Wnr. totally new to the He 219 series seems unlikely. But I would love to be proven wrong.

Junker

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All

@ SES 203 + @ 201

Please look at the attached image from Fuel Cones ..
Greetings
Kim C

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

In this case, it is a part number for the nacell only.

;)


95% of all werk numbers ranges are based on orders placed, and actual documented losses - not on the specific werk numbers made. I have never actually seen official documents from any wartime manufacture that states, "on this day we made werk # "X", and it was complete, transferred to unit "X". There are numerous wrecks from various aircraft being found where the main werk falls "outside" the werk number ranges that are documented, as well as loss records.

Which documents are you referring to specifically?

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Thanks Kim, the great animal is if you find the same number on another major part of the a/c.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Dear Harrison,

I agree with Jörn Junker completely because that little bunch of active He219 researchers do agree about the Werkenummer sequences produced and 195xxx were not among these.
If one tries to understand the history of the He219 in reading all what has been written about this nightfighter, everyone is deluded by numerous errors and misconceptions, which seem to increase with each next publication, that's why some people started last year to reconstruct the history with as much primary sources as possible and as a result, several myths and big question marks have been solved.

You are raising a good question how we can be sure:
The initial Schwechat production including 11 of the 12 preproduction prototypes of He219A-0's is for 99,9% sure and well documented in the Heinkel archives, the few uncertainties are the few losses due to allied bomb raids in april and june 1944 and the few He219D-0's of early 1945.
However, with the help of a few known Werkenummer and known deliveries/acceptance numbers, these can be reconstructed pretty well. Nearly all Werkenummer/Stammkennzeichen combinations are now known as well.

The Rostock produced He219's show another picture: except for the very first He219V-1 prototype, the first series produced He219A-0 was delivered 30 April 1944. Though most of the following Werkenummer blocks can be distinguished based on known Werkenummer, known Stammkennzeichen of combinations of these, we must also rely on known first flights and/or transfer dates in flight logs, to define the Rostock production.

All the best,
Marcel Hogenhuis / Venlo

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

I am 100 % sure, that the this WNr. 195487 has no connection to the aircraft WNr. It is simply WNr. of Gerät Nr. 8-4366B-1, i.e. 390 l fuel tank made by Carl Otto Raspe & Co in Berlin.

Matti

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

There are indeed some records that give the W.Nr. and date for individual aircraft produced, i.e.accepted(BAL). I have had access to this information from Fiesler, for Fi 156, Fw 190, etc. and I am certain they existed for most, if not all, Luftwaffe production, they just have not survived or are inaccessible.
Best Regards,
Artie Bob

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Well the Heinkel archive have a lot of documents as to when and were specific Wnr. were transferred, and also what happened to them, both for He 219 and also He 177. Besides that we have some FB's from FLÜG that show transfer of He 219.
And I see that you also have concluded that the Wnr found was not part of aircraft Wnr.

Junker

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All

Below is a link to tvmidtvest.dk regarding the raising of the HE-219 Denmark.

>>>>> http://www.tvmidtvest.dk/nettv/?id=16074

Unfortunately only in Danish yet.

Have a nice summer.

Greetings
Kim C

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim,

I only understand a few words and recognize the pictures and some footage, but it's a nice documentary ! Please keep us informed with all they - the cleaning team - find.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Junker, were are the Heinkel archive located. Need more information for the HE115 in sola

Regards
Ernst

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Deutsches Museum Münich

Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

I would offer two possibilites, #1 a very hot engine suddenly immersed in very cold water. Or #2, if that part of the coastline freezes, the expansion of freezing water becoming ice within the engine block where coolant and oil used to run.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim,

Beautiful photos those, and great work you are all doing.

Have any Motornummern of your DB603s been discovered yet?

Steve Sheflin

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Steve Sheflin



Please look at the image >>> www.danas-have.dk/images/HE219/Motor-5980.JPG

and # 77 + 78 + 79


Greetings
Kim C

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Thank you Kim,

I missed that photo before. I am having a difficult time determining the exact numbers involved. I would greatly appreciate it if you could post any numbers that emerge after further cleaning. Thank you again.

Steve Sheflin

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Steve,
these are part number (engraved in mold) of that part,
not Motor Nummer as a whole.

ed

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All.

After 67 years at sea bottom

This is photos of finished preserved MG-151.15/20mm.

Exhibited at the Garrison museum in Aalborg - Denmark.

Yours sincerely
Kim C

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Nothing less than fantastic.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All

Here are new pictures, with new engine numbers.

Can they be used to indifikation of He-219 Denmark ??

Please look at >>> www.danas-have.dk/He219.htm
Camera 1, row 8A , pic 1-4.

Sincerely
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Kim,


The two DB603 for the NASM He-219 are 01602842 and most likely 01602821. The 01602821 is missing its data plate (probably taken as a souvenir many years ago). The number is painted in yellow on the block and is original.


Your photograph 8A,1 with the 01603099 stamping would mean that is your engine Werk Nr. based upon the NASM DB603 01602842. It also looks like painted 0160 099 in 8A,2 with the bar covering up the '3'.


I am attaching 3 images from the NASM engines. One is the data plate for 01602842, the second is it’s raised stamping 01602842 which is on the block closer to the rear engine mount and supercharger.


The third image is the other engine with the painted 01602821, on an engine stand. I have rotated it to be horizontal, and hopefully you can visualize raised stamp numbers. The data plate would have been just above the forward engine mount where that engine work frame is attached. You should see the 4 rivet holes. You can see the 01602821 painted on the block, but the other numbers are probably forging or casting numbers.


Hopefully the DB experts can attest to what they are.


Tony

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Ok. see Tony has posted data, but here is my remark anyways..

Seems you have a He 219 A-7 (DB 603 E1) but that has been suggested before.

Text (below) is from Wikipedia: ( not He 219 nor DB *expert* so have no real idea of how accurate this description of A-7 is .. ;-) )

"The last major production version was the A-7 with improved DB 603E engines. The A-7 was typically outfitted with two 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon in the wing roots (inboard of the propeller arcs), two 20 mm MG 151/20 in the ventral weapons bay, and two 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108s as Schräge Musik. The production was to start in November/December 1944 with 210 aircraft ordered. The number produced is not exactly known as the original documents have either been lost or contained no subversion number."

I have one DB 603 A-2 number in my (very short and incomplete He 219 list), the "He 219 N" obviously stands for Nachtjäger

190130 "He 219 N" (Luftwaffe)
Known ( GAF Station Westerland ) 17.05.1944 [with <one> DB 603 A-2 engine No. 01500811 installed: reported as He 219 N 190130 in N.A.: HW5 "Ultra" decoded message "CX/MSS/R.205(A)27.)"]

Photos are very good (but no 2 seems upside down and show same number); so downloaded and rotated in picture viewer 180 degrees, and it seems this be same "0160?099" but very faint). DB 603 E1 number 01603090 is obviously higher than stated abowe (higher indicates later production).

The Red letters (abowe) possibly "443" might indicate .... (not "date")
Rotating pic 2 again (to 270 degrees) there appears "123" there (but not shure)!??

Thank you for posting links and photo.

Best regards
ed

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Thanks Ed. I did some more digging and have added a few more images. First is the painted number on the side of the NASM 01602842 as it was being stripped for rebuilding. This engine still has the data plate and stamping which matches that painted number. So your painted number which appears to be 01603099 and matches the stamping should confirm that is the engine werke nr.

I found something internally. In one of the attached photographs of the NASM DB603 01602842, the prop hub has been removed and there are two hexagonal cover plates, one at the top for the prop drive and the other below for the crank/cannon port. At the top of each is inscribed a 2842 . It is hand inscribed and not a machine stamp. Possibly you could locate these on your engine.

Looking at the Austrian Museum DB603 E-1 ( wn. 10603410 ) found on Wikipedia, I do notice that the prop hub mounting bolts are arranged differently than on the A-2 engine at NASM. Your engine is so damaged that I cannot visualize this, but maybe since it was cleaned up you may see both those numbers and/or that bolt pattern.

Tony

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Ed @ Tony

Thanks for your response!

New photos in Row 9A, pic 1-3, pic 4-6 with more details.

www.danas-have.dk/He219.htm

Camera 1

Yours sincerely
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

I used the incorrect term in my last posting describing the engine front. I should have stated 'Reduction Gear Housing' instead of 'Prop Hub'.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello all,

Wonderful news (and pictures) about this engine, thanks Kim, Tony, Ed and Steve.
The DB 603 E-1 with 016 03099 was produced by POMO Stettin (other DB 603 E's were produced at DB Marienfelde, as can be seen with He219 Wnr.310180).

As the E-type does indeed refer to the He219A-7 subtype, we have about 75 possible Werkenummer left of which one belongs to the He219 at Hirtshals (other He219A-7 were either lost elsewhere or found after the war).

Jolly good show and I still pity the fact, that the history of the I./NJG 3 in the last months of the war, hasn't been researched extensively when a lot of veterans were still alive... I am sure that this loss would have popped up some time.

I am still wondering where the missing tail section has gone to (unintentionally recovered by fishermen in the years after the war?)

The search goes on, all the best,

Marcel
- airfield Venlo in WW-2
- He219 research project

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Dear Tony,

thank you very much about telling us the Werknummern of the two DB603 engines of the "NASM-He219".

In an other thread over at LEMB, see
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...howtopic=16707
there is a discussion, whether the NASM He219 is really WNr 290 202. On the tail unit "290 060" was discovered and, taking into account yours and other informations, the NASM-DB603 engine WNrs do not fit to 290 202.
The camouflage pattern found at the "NASM-He219" also rather would match more with WNr 290 060.

Karl


http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...howtopic=16707

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Karl,

Great to see the expertise and analysis on the LEMB board. I thought I had mentioned this in an eariler posting here. You are correct based upon the information I found in some old paperwork on the restoration of the NASM He-219:


Vertical Stabs. from FE 613 (Werk# 290060) Engines from FE 612 (Werk# 210903)

I found this on an old piece of documentation so I cannot quote the source and since three aircraft were brought to the US after the war, it is easily possible. Reading a few different books on Watson's Whizzers, they pieced together aircraft when different parts were damaged or they did not have confidence in them. From this we can assume the engines were from 210903

Tony

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

"Jolly good show and I still pity the fact, that the history of the I./NJG 3 in the last months of the war, hasn't been researched extensively when a lot of veterans were still alive... I am sure that this loss would have popped up some time."

Carsten and I have done extensive research into I/NJG 3, and its time in Denmark. None of the veterans have ever mentioned a loss of a He 219 in 1945. What almost all agreed on were the dislike of the type!

Junker

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Jorn

Apologies when I have offended you and/or Carsten in any way: not my intention of course! I intended to say that (to my imperfect knowledge) no Rokker-like "I./NJG 3 Chronik" hadn't been published which of course does not contain all we want to know about that Gruppe.

Now about the identity of the NASM He219: I have a picture - provided by Tony if I am correct - showing the triangular ID plate with... Wnr.210902, which to my opinion is the real ID of the aircraft, not the tail or engines which might have been changed after the war in the USA.

If the Danish He219 had DB 603E engines the A-7 subtype is the type we search for and I am sorry to say that our chances to find the Werkenummer of the bird are bleak...unless an ID tag or missing tailsectiln can be found. The wing section could be vital.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Marcel,

I did not have an image of the NASM He-219 data plate, but was able to graciously obtain one today. So here it is, rather close up but I think most know the location in the aircraft.

I am also learning about TOCH and the upload limitations, as I had to battle reducing it's size and getting rid of other images I have uploaded.

Tony

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Tony,

That is the picture! This identifies the aircraft, whatever removable parts like engines, tail sections or rudders may suggest. We know for instance of Wnr. 190061 which crashed in a lake near Mirow that it had the tailsection... of Wnr. 190063.

I still have the feeling - but no more than that - that a He219A-7 so far north in Denmark, points to the l/NJG3.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All.

@ Tony
Can you look at NASM plane where the ID plate is attached (Spant no.?)

@ Marcel
It seems that the trigger is pulled on the Catapult seat,
is there some hidden records on statistics, on this subject ?

Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim

I believe that it was Spant no.31, see He219 Handbuch Teil 0, page 14. Spant no.31 has the circular hole for the Kärcher heater and on the rear side - as seen through the opened inspection hatch - this triangular ID plate was attached. That part and the rest of the tail section of 'your' He219 is missing.

I don't quite understand your question about the ejection seat: can you rephrase this? Which seat exactly is meant: the front or rear seat? Waht do you mean with 'hidden records' (though I admit that there is still a lot of unexplored files around on my 'to do' list)

Looking forward to hear from you! All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

At the risk of diverting the thread, could you perhaps expand on the comment that NJG3 veterans were united in a dislike of the type? What was it about the aircraft that led to this opinion?