Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Johannes
Night raids were plotted by radars, so it was possible to fairy accurate note the victor and victim.
Re Western Front, BoB was a mess. Then later, victories were matched to wrecks, but sometimes with dubious accuracy. Also a number of aircraft fell down to other reasons, but were attributed to own fighters. Not an easy thing to work out now, because of lack of narratives.
Franek

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Has anyone worked out Eder's claims to losses?

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

I am working on the JG 52 aces' claims in Hungary in 1944-45. Long project... Hartmann is just one of them.
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

I really hope you'll share with us here when you are done, Gabor. This is amazing knowledge and fascinating history

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Thank you Nick. That's the plan, but it will be several months... :-( I hate time pressure and time-limitation, but I think all of us suffer of that...
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Guys

In my opinion Hartmann worked his "over-claiming" initially with 7./JG52 with Werner Puls before being joining 9./JG52.

If our Russian losses experts are correct(and we have nothing to dispute this) then 9./JG52 claims are less reliable, one could say "over-claiming" had been going on there throughout 1942.

In my opinion Hermann Graf worked his "over-claiming" initially with Leopold Steinbatz, Heinrich Füllgrabe, Friedrich Brückmann ans Ernst Süß. Then there was a change in August/September 1942 to Johann Kalb and Hermann Wolf.

When Hartmann joins 9./JG52 in my opinion he continued his "over-claiming" from Autumn 1943 until January 1944 with Herbert Bachnick and our old friend Hermann Wolf, after this time there is no obvious alliances, Hans-Joachim Birkner is alleged to have been his longtime wingman, but there is not much evidence of this........yet still the "over-claiming" went on.

How did Hartmann know that he could rely on wolf, some kind of masonic handshake?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Perhaps we will never have a full and correct explanation to some pilots' overclaiming habit. What I know for sure, is that the very same soviet combat records support some pilots claims with crazy accuracy, but disproof others in a shocking scale. This tells me that the soviet records (back then and there, while the war was still going on) were authentic and fine, the problem is with some pilots' claims. Honestly, now, as I go through all records again for eg. Lipfert in deep analysis, I just laugh when I see the minor differences between his claims and the soviet verified losses. Very often only 0, 2, or 5 minutes difference in claim times; Lipfert was crazy sharp! Calculating the 2 hrs Moscow and local time difference, the remaining time is very often only 0 - 2 - 5 minutes! Certainly we can take into consideration what was written down. If Hartmann's records were wrong, even if he really shot down a plane, we cannot verify his claim. I think that between 90-100% and only 25-30% accuracies there are BIG differences!

Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hello

Yes, the Russian documents tell the truth.
However, one thing is certain, on the evening of June 4 the 5 VA had 8 P-39 few.
Even the No.20 after the aerial battle in which the No.36 was lost, had to go to the workshop. She only made training flights until June 7th, until she flew on June 8th.
Maybe Hartmann met her after all.
Secondly; for the Russians a loss occurred only when the aircraft, the pilot, was lost. Damage like the Germans 60% could be repaired. And losses that were too great were not seen well in the upper staff and also in the political offices.

BenFolk

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Gabor

Think we are in agreement. I see patterns in pilots claiming, and basically it's the same type of pattern for the "over-claimers", also even when they are not "over-claiming" I can usually see it's because they are with an unfamiliar wingman. Also of note is that in the East a Staffel hardly ever flew as a whole, it was usually a rotte or schwarm, this would explain how only certain pilots within a staffel might be "over-claiming".

Saddest thing is that I suspect the "over-claimers" caused hyper-inflation with regards to decorations. Considering the differences between the amount of "kills" a pilot needed to get a Ritterkreuz at any particular time, I wonder if Gruppenkommandeur sometimes didn't recommend a certain person for reward, because he suspected something.

There was an adjutant under Barkhorn's command that found a loophole i.e he was claiming the "kills" awarded to the unit as a whole....not to any one person, apparently Barkhorn was horrified and put a stop to it, but sadly I don't know if any punishment was handed out.

All the best

Johannes

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hello


I don´t want any new Discussion to begin, but I think that must still to be added

Hartmann in his aerial fighting am 04.06.1944, had to face versus
100 GvIAP, 427 IAP, 438 IAP, 16 GvIAP, 16 GvIAP, 100 GvIAP and
100 GvIAP.

Uffz. Friedrich Haas, 5./JG 52 shot down a bomber. 5 VA did not report this, though 48 BAP admitted the loss of an A-20.

unfortunately, there is little data on other losses in Russian documents.
For example, 198 SchAD in October 1944 lost 4 IL-2 in air fights and 9 were damaged, of which 4 so strong that they were scrapped.
112 GvIAP lost 1945 11 aircraft on combat flights against JG 52, JG 77 and Flak fire, one in crash, four in breakdowns and another 39 were scrapped for other reasons - it is possible that some of them returned after air combat so damaged that it was not worth repairing them anymore.

Finally, there is an incident over Olomouc on May 8, 1945, where there was a collision of two planes due to through the clouds of smoke from the ground fighting. It is possible that Hartmann mistook the cities for it and shot down a Yak-3 that collided with the IL-2. Due to the poor visibility of this exact event, neither the Russians nor the Germans noticed it.
So maybe he had 353 kills instead of 352


BenFolk

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hello


I don´t want any new Discussion to begin, but I think that must still to be added

Hartmann in his aerial fighting am 04.06.1944, had to face versus
100 GvIAP, 427 IAP, 438 IAP, 16 GvIAP, 16 GvIAP, 100 GvIAP and
100 GvIAP.

Uffz. Friedrich Haas, 5./JG 52 shot down a bomber. 5 VA did not report this, though 48 BAP admitted the loss of an A-20. Unfortunately, there is little data on other losses in Russian documents.

For example, 198 SchAD in October 1944 lost 4 IL-2 in air fights and 9 were damaged, of which 4 so strong that they were scrapped.
112 GvIAP lost 1945 11 aircraft on combat flights against JG 52, JG 77 and Flak fire, one in crash, four in breakdowns and another 39 were scrapped for other reasons - it is possible that some of them returned after air combat so damaged that it was not worth repairing them anymore.

Finally, there is an incident over Olomouc on May 8, 1945, where there was a collision of two planes due to through the clouds of smoke from the ground fighting. It is possible that Hartmann mistook the cities for it and shot down a Yak-3 that collided with the IL-2. Due to the poor visibility of this exact event, neither the Russians nor the Germans noticed it.
So maybe he had 353 kills instead of 352


BenFolk

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi BenFolk,

Interesting insights. However there are multiple problems with May 8, 1945, which lead to the same conclusion.

1.: Olomouc-N is approx. 90km NE of downtown Brno, therefore not only is it in the wrong place, but it is also further away from Hartmann's airfield.

2.: Brno is approx. 80km away from where Hartmann took off from, while Olomouc is approx. 120 km away. His mission was to see how far the Soviets were from Deutsche Brod (the area which was at the front of the Soviet advance towards his airfield). By flying towards Olomouc, Hartmann would not have known how far the Soviet push towards his airfield was, rather he would have known how far the Soviet push was towards the North, something which would have been of no use to him.

3.: A Yak-3 colliding with an IL-2 by chance is unlikely if the Yak was falling from the heavens. If the Yak fell onto the IL-2 it would have been closer to the IL-2. The IL-2s were ground attack aircrafts which flew close to the ground (approx. 1000m altitude), therefore the altitude Hartmann stated is incorrect among many other details. If the Yak was escorting the IL-2s, there would have been multiple planes (say 8 IL-2s), therefore there would have been witnesses to report an encounter with the enemy. The only reported enemy aerial activity in the area was a lonely Ju 88 at high altitude.

4. Olomouc is even deeper into Soviet territory, therefore there would not have been 12 Mustangs in the air that Hartmann saw after his Yak-9 claim.

Consideration of these details again leads to the very same conclusion: Hartman's No.352 was just another overclaim.

Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hello

I am sorry
Olomouc was in the operational area of the 60th Soviet Army.
The air defense of this army reported the passage of 14 enemy aircraft that day. 4 The FW190s were in action at 10.18 a.m. (Russian time) in the Mährisch Neustadt area.
Even 8 VA report that 3 Me 110 Russian troops stormed in the Prostejov area, towards Brno, and 7 enemy aircraft were discovered behind the front line.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any exact dates on the Soviet side.

BenFolk

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi BenFolk,
Hartmann took off from Havlíčkův Brod (Německý Brod / Deutsch Brod) on May 8, 1945 in order to check the Soviet push towards their airfield. He was ordered to fly this mission by his superior, so it was not just a free hunt mission eg. to Olomouc.

Brno was much closer to his airfield than Olomouc (and for almost two weeks it was already in Soviet hands, therefore they knew the Russians were that close!) and he followed the main road to there. There is no main road connecting D.B. to Olomouc directly, only the one passing through Brno, where, by the way, he claimed that Yak-9 at approx. 9:00 LT. This means that his ‘lost’ mysterious Yak-9 had to go down in the Soviet records around 11:00 Moscow Time. There was no such loss!

The 8 VA IL-2s and Yak-3s near Olomouc flew their mission between 08:00-08:50 local time. They collided soon after they left the target ~ around 8:30 LT. This means that the Yak-3 and the IL-2 (More precisely 565 ShAP IL-2, S/N: 9816, Ml.lt. Shishnev bailed out and 112 GvIAP Yak-3, S/N: 0829227, Gv.Lt. Kuzin, KIA) were already burning on the ground for about half an hour, when Hartmann claimed 'his Yak-9' over Brno much closer to his airfield around 09:00 local time. (The Ju 88 mentioned previously was spotted and reported by the regional PVO claiming 4 dropped bombs, which caused no damages.)

Considering all of this, everything that happened in the Olomouc area (The Soviet 60th Army, the Soviet 8th Air Army, the observed German planes, etc.) is completely irrelevant and independent regarding Hartmann’s 352nd.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hello

- As I read, Hartmann flew during 8.30 - 9.20 hours It was only 80 kilometers to Brünn, so it would be around 160 kilometers back and forth. Very slow with a Me 109 and for a long time.

- Then I wrote "possible". As in the Russian Report (Фонд 346, Опись 0005755, Дело 0229) reads "fog and smoke" there was a collision which means poor visibility.

This topic is finished for me.



Thanks
BenFolk

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi BenFolk
Yes, Hartmann's sortie ended at 09:20 LT, so he returned to his base immediately after his Yak-9 claim at 09:00 LT over downtown Brno. Problem is no Soviet fighter was lost in the entire Brno area throughout May 8 1945, not a single American Mustang was in the area (let alone 12, that he mentioned which 'forced' him to leave the region), he flew alone (so no witness), or at least his wingman was never specified who confirmed his final kill... He stated that he was full of hate when he saw the Russians over Brno (understandably due to the just lost war) so I think by anger and as a final emotional revenge he pushed another (fake) claim into his tally... Long story in short: Nothing, I say nothing supports his Yak-9 'victory' for May 8, 1945! If it was not just a made up story, then it was just another overclaim, which confirms my original, December, 2019 statement, that based on tons of wartime records, he could have about 80, max. 100 real victories during WWII, not 352. (Don't get me wrong, it's still many, BUT: it's not a world record, not even close.)

About 70% of his so called: 'victories' contradict all related Soviet and American documents, while the very same set of records confirm other German pilots' claims with astonishing accuracy. So it's about him, not about the records.

Do not worry, it is very important and critical to analyse all possible options in order to get to the truth, so if you find anything else, let us just discuss it.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

hi,

"About 70% of his so called: 'victories' contradict all related Soviet and American documents, while the very same set of records confirm other German pilots' claims with astonishing accuracy. So it's about him, not about the records."

Only check Helmut Lipfert to see a lot of difference...


regards

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Foennekold is another good example

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

As Iwan (Lawrinenko) is preparing another book on Föbbekold and Wolfrum I questioned him if their real successes (= founded in soviet records) are higher than that of Batz he agreed and said he believes they are even higher than Hartmann's.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Monaco,
Sounds interesting. Could you or Iwan provide some more details, especially since he and Michael Meyer already covered Fönnekold in their book "Drei Falken der II./JG 52", published by Helios in 2020. (BTW, the other two 'Falken' were Barkhorn and Lipfert, but the book also includes quite a bit about Wolfrum, Batz, Düttmann, etc.)

Is the new book intended to complement the info on Fönnekold and Wolfrum, or update/replace it?

Of course, it would be great to see the same rigorous analysis applied to other aces (e.g. Kittel, Rall, Bär, Weissenberger, Graf, etc.) in additional volumes...

Thanks and regards,
Leon Venter

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Leon,

Some of Kittel's available here:

https://forum-kenig.ru/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4513

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Nick,
And a whole lot more!

Great resource -- thanks for sharing.

Regards,
Leon Venter

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hello Leon,
this is the analysis of the chapter about the battle of Iasi:
"In der Luftschlacht über dem Gebiet Iași vom 30. Mai bis 6. Juni erzielte Wolfrum insgesamt 24 Abschüsse. Von dieser Zahl können mindestens 13-14 Erfolge von der gegnerischen Seite bestätigt werden. Weitere ... Luftsiege konnten dem Konto des Kapitäns der 1./JG 52 oder anderen Flugzeugführern zugeschrieben werden. Fönnekold war in diesem Zeitraum Sieger in 12 Luftgefechten, wobei mindestens 7-8 Abschüsse in sowjetischen Dokumenten genau bestätigt sind. Weitere vier Erfolge konnten sowohl von ihm als auch von seinen Geschwaderkameraden erzielt worden sein.
Zum Vergleich: Von den 35 Abschussmeldungen des angeblich erfolgreichsten Jagdfliegers der Schlacht um Iași, Leutnant Erich Hartmann wird nur ein Luftsieg zuverlässig bestätigt. Mehrere weitere Abschüsse sind umstritten, weil es nicht in allen Fällen möglich ist, diesen oder jenen sowjetische Verlust einem bestimmten deutschen Flugzeugführer zuzuschreiben. Eines steht für Hartmann fest: Sein 250. Luftsieg, nach dem ihm das Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern verliehen wurde, fand nur in der Einbildung des Flugzeugführers statt.
Eine ähnliche Bilanz gilt auch für Wolfrums und Fönnekolds früheren unmittelbaren Befehlshaber, Hauptmann Wilhelm Batz, der bereits in der Schlacht auf der Krim geringe nachweibare Leistung zeigte. Dieser Pilot fiel auch in den Kämpfen am Himmel Rumäniens zu sehr seiner Einbildungskraft zum Opfer. In der Schlacht um Iași übertraf Batz, der bestimmt auf der Jagd nach dem Eichenlaub zum Ritterkreuz war, sogar Hartmann in Bezug auf die Anzahl der von ihm in einem Einsatz gemeldeten Abschüsse: Dreimal bei einem Feindflug verbuchte er je vier Luftsiege und zweimal am 31. Mai sogar je fünf Abschüsse! Bei einem dieser sehr erfolgreichen Einsätze erreichte der Kommandeur der III./JG 52 die „magische“ Zahl von 150 Abschüssen. Innerhalb dieser einen Woche erhöhte er sein Konto um insgesamt 32 Luftsiegen. Die Wirklichkeit sah aber etwas anders aus. So wurde kein einziger der 12 Airacobra-Abschüsse, die Batz vom 30. Mai bis 6. Juni beanspruchte, sowjetischerseits hundertprozentig bestätigt. Das Maximum, das Batz im Luftkampf mit den Piloten des 7. IAK vielleicht erreichen konnte, waren 2-3 vernichtete Jäger des amerikanischen Typs."

Essence in English:
For the period from 30 May to 6 June 1944:

Wolfrum claimed 24 of which 13-14 can be found in soviet archives plus several more for which there also other possible claimants.
Fönnekold claimed 12 of which 7-8 can be found in soviet archives plus 4 more for which there also other possible claimants.
Hartmann claimed 35 of which only 1 (!) can be found in soviet archives plus several more for which there also other possible claimants.
Batz claimed 32 of which 2-3 can be found in soviet archives plus several more for which there also other possible claimants. Of 12 P-39 claims by Batz none can be confirmed in soviet archives.

All of the claims by Fönnekold and Wolfrum will be discussed in detail with the likely opponents mentioned.

Maybe you and others could convince Iwan to publish this book in English language maybe as an E-book ...if so please give us a hint :)

Yours Michael

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Monaco,
Thanks for your reply! Based on the info you provided, it appears that the new book is a sequel to the "Drei Falken" book because the latter's narrative ends around 7 May 1944. That would make the new one a most welcome continuation of Iwan's analysis.

Hell yes, I would give my left one for more such books by Iwan in either English or German. What do you think would work best for him? Maybe advance orders, or pre-payment in Bitcoin or gold, or perhaps a Lamborghini...? ;)

Regards,
Leon Venter

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Is there a title for the new book so that we can search for it on sellers' websites?

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

The working title is „Zwei Kameraden“ (two comrades),
though we are making good progress, I‘ m not sure it´ ll released this year. If you want I Keep you informed via this thread. To Leon:
It‘s covering the careers of Fönnekold/ Wofrum from the beginning to the end, i.e. Fönnekold startet over the Caucasus in autumn 1942 flying together with aces like Barkhorn and Krupinski. Wolfram joined in in spring 1943 over the Kuban. Only for the period of the Battles over Kerch and Crimea there will be some doubling with „Drei Falken“ - and new infos will surely be included. The battle over Jassy will be analysed in Detail. That is were we are at the moment.
Cheers
Michael

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Thank you Michael,
I await that one eagerly. Drei Falken was simply brilliant

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

I'll second that! Thanks very much for your update, Michael.

I also just want to acknowledge the excellent research that Nick Hector does on matching claims and losses. He's been sharing it generously on various forums, and it's greatly appreciated as well.

Regards,
Leon Venter

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

I agree with Leon,
thank you Nick and least we forget Mr. Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hello Monaco


I have another question. Who was Hartmann's opponent in his so-called 250 kill? Did he even fight or invent shooting?



Many Thanks


BenFolk

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Quoting from Iwan´s article:

https://warspot.ru/3125-hartman-nad-...one-za-mechami


"Finally, on June 4, 1944 the German ace decided that it was time to take the magic barrier of the number 250 and declared six victories at once - one for a LaGG (16:25) and five over Aerocobras (16:10, 18:23, 18:53, 19:15 and 19:18). The P-39 announced last and was Hartmann's 250th victory. What do the Soviet documents say about these "festivity events"? Of the units armed with the Airacobra, only the regiments of the 9th Guards IAD, which lost two fighters, suffered losses again. The Germans also "drank blood" on that day from 427th IAP of the 294th IAD, which immediately missed four "Yaks". However, all these losses have nothing to do with the claims of the "hero of the day", since they are the successes of other JG 52 pilots!
The real achievements of Hartmann, perhaps, include hitting at 18:53h an Aircobra of the 16th Guards IAP. From departure in the period 18: 20–19: 15, the fighter of junior lieutenant G.G. Statsenko returned with damages: in battle his "Airacobra" received one bullet hole in the stabilizer, two - in the radio transmitter, three - in the rear compartment frame, and one - in the main landing gear. The pilot had a minor shrapnel wound in the soft tissues of his right leg.
Judging by the time and place of applications, the ace achieved his 250th victory in a battle with the pilots of the 438th IAP. In the the period 18: 55-19:45h, eight "Airacobras", headed by captain V.S. Semykin, patrolling in the Sculeni-Buimecheni area, met 10 German fighters identified as Fw 190. As a result of the air battle the Soviet pilots declared one shot down and shot up "Focke-Wulf" without loss.
Unfortunately, the time of departure of the pilots of the 152nd Guards IAP of the 12th Guards IAD, which lost three Yaks and three pilots that day, is still unknown. The regiment commander, Hero of the Soviet Union, Lieutenant Colonel V.A. Merkushev was shot down from the ground and taken prisoner, and junior lieutenants I.A. Chubarov and V.V. Pavlov did not return from a combat mission: one of them, presumably, also became a victim of German anti-aircraft gunners, and the second was on the account of German fighters. Whether Hartman has anything to do with these losses is not yet known, but, in any case, there are several other applications from the German side for these successes.

So we got for Hartmann 1 damaged P-39 against his claims for 5 and the possibility for a verified LaGG (= Jak).

The only thing that we can say in regard of Hartmann is we are sitting here at the desk not risking our lives in daily combat, he was young, the darling of the NS propaganda and in that way not alone among the fighter arm. Pilots tended to overclaim when they were in reach of magic figures that would bring them fame, awards and a rent for their wifes or beloved ones in case of death or injuries (even in the successor country of Nazi-Deutschland the FRG). In contrast widows and victims of Nazi persecution mainly got no rent in the FRG, because of "lack of documents"...though not the theme maybe worth a footnote.

Regards

Michael

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

I have 11 claims for Jaks/LaGGs by JG.52 and II./SG.2 that day...

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Folks,
As has been voiced many many times on this forum, a detailed analysis into the victory claims of Erich Hartmann (and other JG 52 aces), put into print, has long been overdue.
I am pleased to announce that, with my son Daniel Horvath, we will be publishing our first co-authored book titled 'Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45'! This book seeks to fill that void which has been expressed over the previous years, at least for what pertains to Hungary. This book would not have been considered had it not been for YOUR enthusiasm, dedication to real history, and generous assistance!


P.S. Expect the level of detail THIS thread and indeed THIS forum is capable of producing!

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

OUTSTANDING.

Very well done, Gabor and Daniel.

I look forward with much anticipation to ordering and enjoying a copy.

(Raises a glass to the book's success...)

Regards
Nick

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Michael

Diligent research.

Please not that almost all previously thought accurate claims for Hartmann, and Barkhorn for 1945 are no longer tenable. With Barkhorn we think that Hans Ring was playing a little game..........again.

If Barkhorn had 229 out of 300/301 actually confirmed through research, and tending to "over-claim" as he approached "300", "over-claiming" as he approached "300" was because the information of his claims at this time were incorrect, the 229 is very likely now over 250. With Rall and Kittel believed honest, but not every one correctly claimed, it is likely that Barkhorn was in reality the highest scorer, and first to "250", and Rall first to "150" and "200", but we cannot change official history, despite their scams Hartmann and Nowotny will always be the leaders.

Keep well

Johannes

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi
for example
the 42 OTER 5 VA under the command of St.Tech. Voronin , evacuated from August 1944 to May 1945 850 emergency landing aircraft, many by German effect (over-claims), 600 of which were repaired. 25 under enemy fire.


BenFolk

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi

for example

In the period from July 5, 1943 until February 18, 1944 mechanic Panchulidze 165 GvSAP evacuated 8 damaged aircraft from the front line from the places of forced landings.

During this period Panchulidze personally took part in the repair of 11 aircraft, 5 of them on forced landings.

On July 5, 1943, after the first combat sortie, his plane was shot down anti aircraft gun the enemy and made an emergency landing. Panchulidze goes to the place of the forced landing and in a day the plane comes into operation again.

Most likely in June 1944 the aircraft Nr 24611, Airacobra, being knocked out in an air battle, made an emergency landing in the mountainous terrain in the Yass direction. Mechanic Kotlyarov 104 GvIAP within 24 hours found it, restored it in 18 working hours and delivered it to his airfield.

Such losses were not recorded in Russian documents. Most of the time the planes came back by truck or pulled by a tractor.

So an aerial victory for the Germans, but not an aerial victory for today's historians.

Regards

BenFolk

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Exactly. Just because you have a flat tire you do not buy a new car considering that you've lost your old one. Fixing a belly landed, durable Soviet plane was only a routine maintenance practice that took a little longer than simply re-fueling a plane before a mission. We know cases where Hartmann's 'victim' was back in the air within 24 hrs. Then we can guess why the Russians could reach Berlin despite of those hundreds of German aerial victories. The Germans won the war on papers and in statistics, but they lost it in reality.

Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Two points

One
A very good way of hiding away post war research. If this is correct that the Russians never recorded force landed aircraft and their repairs, there are surely thousands of German claims which can never be verified.

Two
And why should not such an aircraft not be counted as a valid German claim?
As far as I go, the only mistake made by the Luftwaffe was not to locate the damaged aircraft and strafe it to destruction.

Oh and Gabor, regarding a flat tyre, I can assure you it can easily wipe out your car, depending on where you get it.
I was some 25 km away from any useful place on Iceland when I got one. The wheel had of course been attached by a machine and was totally stuck.
I had to drive some 13-14km on that tyre before reaching some help from a by passer. It took both our strength to get that wheel off.
Incidentally you can assure a rented car for practically anything you can imagine on Iceland, except one thing....flat tyres.....:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Seems that the book will be not unbiased. My loss list (when published) will show also the aircraft that returned with 1 bullet holes. Of course I will not track down each such loss but I will show all that will be found.