Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Hello,

I have some substantive info to add to this discussion. An earlier post by Petrusja asked about information that he'd heard that perhaps 20 downed British crewmen were reportedly picked up by He59 rescue planes that day.

For the past couple of years we've been translating all the maritime KTBs for 1939-40 for the EoE Project. According to the KTB of Seenotzentrale Nord, the air sea rescue seaplanes could be not operate that day due to icing conditions. Only one took off to try and locate a German fighter pilot who bailed out of a Bf109. No British airmen were rescued. If any other air-sea rescue unit picked up any British airmen down in the sea that day, it would have been noted in this unit diary. So, whatever the source of this information, it is not correct.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Hi Marius, by way of example, ORBs for the operational squadrons have been quoted in this thread, but what everyone is saying equally applies to non-operational units.

I reiterate that being a "home" command, the records of Bomber Command survived the war intact. If the "ghost" formation was actually real then there would be a multitude of archived records that would point to its' existence.

There are no missing or hidden documents that would magically explain the "ghost" formation.

Many, many researchers before us have worked extensively through the Bomber Command archives since 1972, and if there was a hint of documentation that supported your claims then such documents would have been brought to light well before now. Ditto with the records of other RAF Commands, as well as the CWGC documents and individual aircraft records.

Cheers

Rod

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Evidence:

1)There were aircraft flying along the coast from west to east at the time of the battle (Lagebericht West 119, posted by yourself)

2) There were no British aircraft flying in that direction at the time (ORB's of RAF squadrons, all already mentioned in this topic)


ORB 38 Sqn gives some coded references as the area of their sweep, but stating that the route was clear of the Dutch coast. Time of mission between 12.37 and 15.50. But as the 38 Sqn did not sighted anything means they not pressed on to Heligoland Bight turning for home earlier.

It's clear that the aircraft flying eastwards from Borkum to Wangerooge could be only German. Germans expected the British aircraft would be flying from the west along the coast (38 Sqn) and know nothing about actual streight of formation detected approaching from the west, so when they observed aircraft flying they cast no doubt about nationality of these.

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Hi Larry, this is correct! I don`t believe in rescued RAF-crews also.

After several hours last night researching material I do have, for me it is clear now here arose two big problems which are affecting the official story of the attack.

The first one is the Britsh point of view including the mission details which are given not correctly by no one historian. The Heinrich Weiss manuscript is containing exactly the same story – an interpretation – as published in “Fledgling Eagles” in 1991. No revelations then.
J. Prien wrote several years ago something about possible participation of 148 Sqd and about 30 serial numbers of bombers he apparently knows. This seems to be false.
On the other hand the mistakes and speculations done in the last 20-30 years allow to look forward for example in the direction of RAF OTU units and more – as well as Obstlt. Carl Schumacher supposed just after the battle. So I didn`t want to exclude such possibilities first. But now I do.

The second one is the formation consisting of 22 hostile bombers which appears in German documented material: well, it seems “22” was just doubled somewhere because two formations were seen at all – no matter if right or wrong. But this is the reason for several upcoming interpretations and mistakes ending with the effect of too less refused claims by German officials. The massive attack with "22 x 2" or even 52 bombers – as the POWs related – made the mass of victories just more believable and the confirmation was going its own way. It was an overclaiming but not caused by the phantasies of German pilots. The victory tall was doubled because the whole formation was doubled – and this happened obviously accidentally. Just a false interpretation following one another false interpretation.

My conclusion is simple. The participation of 9, 37 & 149 Sqd only is fully correct (38 & 148 Sqd as some authors wrote have nothing to do with). But the whole description of the mission`s carrying-out is almost completely wrong. I would say: too much speculations instead of attentive reading of documents.



Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Marius,

It seems that we now agree with the results and participants of this air battle, and that there were no other participants on the British side.

However, I'm a little puzzled with your statement:

"But the whole description of the mission`s carrying-out is almost completely wrong. I would say: too much speculations instead of attentive reading of documents."

Do you mean the German description of the mission is wrong, or do you think that the British account is also wrong? What exactly do you mean by this statement?

Since John Beaman prefers that we not continue discussion in this thread, please send me your reconstruction of the events that day where it differs from the Heinrich Weiss account. I'm highly interested in where you differ with his interpretation of the story. Also, you refer to claims by British PoWs of many more British a/c involved. As near as I can tell there was only part of one crew that was captured by the Germans--the one from the Wellington that I posted the photo of earlier. Do you know of more PoWs that the three members of the crew of 37 SQ LFoJ: Sergeant Herbert Ruse (Pilot), Sergeant T. May, and Leading Aircraftsman H. A. Jones? Considering the number of Wellington's lost, this is only a very small number of PoWs, and none of them were officers or leaders who might more likely be in a position to have a lot of knowledge about the big picture of the mission.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Following were POWs

Sgt H Ruse (pilot), Sgt TK May (second pilot) and LAC HA Jones (gunner) all from N2936

F/O P A Wimberley (pilot) N2888

AC1 GW Geddes (gunner) N2889 (died following day from injuries)

I thought you had Chorley's book?

Regards

Martin

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Larry,
I am waiting for more material. I will check it step by step first instead of bringing in further wild speculations.
Heinrich Weiss manuscript is no help, because his interpretations were published in "Fledgling Eagles" already.
I have R. Holmes` book now. But as I see so far it is not well done. I don`t see what is authors interpretation and what is coming from documents.

Apparently some things are still concealed from the public because Holmes is not giving us the complete information about the mission. For example the route back of the leading formation seems to be completely wrong. I will check it in detail again. But if it really is some authors interpretations were gone the wrong way for sure.

Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Martin,

The EoE British loss lists are overwhelmingly the efforts of Peter Cornwell, with assistance from many others. Of course he has Chorley. His British loss lists for the downed Wellington's did make note of the PoWs from the other two a/c, Wimberley and Geddes; I simply missed those when I did that post. Not Peter's omission at all, but mine.

Does anyone know of any account of the rescue of either Wimberley or Geddes, and how they made it to shore? It appears that the Ruse crew came down on the shoreline of this island off Borkum, so it's no mystery about their capture. However, are there any accounts in the German press or other sources of the capture of any of these airmen? I suspect that there may well be information about this in the contemporary accounts of this mission in the German press, or the statements of the released prisoners after the war that could give us more of the story about this.

Can anyone help.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Hi Larry,

Are the EoE lists viewable/obtainable anywhere?

Nick

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Nick,

No they are not. Peter and I frequently post individual incidents in response to questions on the TOCH or LEMB boards, but these will not be fully available until the EoE project is published in the various volumes, which include detailed information on all the losses, damages and casualty events for all of the participating air forces involved in the first 16 months of the airwar in Europe, from 01.09.39 through 31.12.40. For the British alone, there are thousands of entries involved, and they are now in the process of a massive revision. We are attempting to add the full names of all British airmen listed during the first 16-months of the war. Sounds like an easy thing to do, but it is actually a very complicated and challenging endeavor, since British records do not normally record pilots and aircrew with their full names. Trying to ID an airman aboard a British bomber with the name J. Smith, gives you some idea of what we're up against.

Eventually we will complete this , but it's going to take a while. In the meantime, Peter Cornwell's volumes on "The Battle of Britain: Then and Now", and "The Battle of France: Then and Now," are the most complete versions of his work on this subject in print. There are now thousands of additions, changes and corrections that have been added to these previous volumes in the EoE Project loss listings, which for the British now includes the Scandinavian Campaign, Coastal Command, Royal Navy and the campaign against the German homeland, primarily by RAF Bomber Command, that Peter hasn't covered in his previously published works. However, the EoE project doesn't cover training unit losses, except in the rare occasions when a training unit became directly involved in a combat role. This was the case in some measure with the Polish Air Force during the 1939 PC, and with some units during the WC/FC of 1940.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator
http://airwar-worldwar2.com