Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Please also see post #44 (by Marcel :wink:).
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Kim,

As both Marcel and SES indicated, it is on tail side of fuselage frame 31. In the He-219 cutaway someone provided in an eariler post, it is line item 119 ( Fuselage Frame No 31 ). You can see the Karcher opening near the bottom center. I have finally reduced and converted the other image I obtained which will show better where the plate is attached.

In the image, taken from the rear and under the fuselage looking forward, some maintenance cover panel has been removed to expose the plate. Further up the fueslage is the access opening for the radar components and Schrage Muzik cannons.

Tony

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Muzik, Mujik ??

Is there some slave there to move the gun ??

Rémi

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Bonjour Remi,

These were fixed guns and one needs a German body builder to move these during flight, that's why the A-5 version was produced in series (if somebody still should believe that despite the evidence of the contrary, there ever were large numbers of A-5).

Michael: l'histoire se répète, even in our postings...(:-)

Ciao, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Yes as it says in the movie:"In all this confusion I kind of lost track myself".
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All

Thank you for yours response.


Is there any dimension avaible of Spant No.31?

Please see attached photo.


Regarding the catapult seat, what I thought about was, if there were any registration of rescues from fighting etc,
where the catapult was used, maybe some registration because it was a new technology and it was still under development.

Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim

Now I understand: yes, there have been several rescues with the ejection seats. As I am now at the weekly rehearsal evening with the Royal Fanfare in Venlo, I will answer tomorrow.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim,

The thickness and more oval shape of the Spant as shown on your picture, suggests that this Spant was somewhere between Spant 31 and 33, leaving Spant 31a or 32 as the best options. See enclosed picture. The thickness of the recovered spant would be logical there, because it had to endure the forces of the empenage/tail section.

Cleaning of your Spant will show (I think) that it does not have that triangular ID plate (unfortunately!).

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello,

I am not in possesion if He 219 DB 603 engine manual, but is this not "engine-armour" (plate) in front of motor? Seems be rather rusty to be of aluminum ... but it seems smaller than item (and them holes) visible in this picture taken from NASM by "mike.kukavica" found at Flickr.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikekuk...n/photostream/ In case it does not show to TOCH readers on Flickr.com , the attached image (below) is this cut from same picture as in the link abowe. The arrow points to item in question.

Best regards
ed

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi,
I tend to agree with ed. The plate looks way too thick to be a Spant. It would also be odd to have 31a/32 but not 30, since the entire tail section is missing.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Ed North & SES

Thank you for your response.

Please look at >>> www.danas-have.dk/He219.htm

Camera 1.
Row 2 Pic 4
Row 3 Pic 1
Row 4 Pic 1

I expect that it is the one you are talking about.


But we are talking about , Row 6 Pic 2 !!!!

I dont think it is from the engine ???

Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Ed, Michaël and Kim,

A very good observation and I tend to agree, even more when I looked at how the Kühlerklappen were opened/closed: a second ring, even better visible when one takes the picture at Kim's site, was turned a little and pushed the Kühlerklappen open.

Close ups from the Lehrbildreihe and He219 Handbook leaves to me no doubts anymore, this is not a Spant. One can see it also when comparing the dimension of the ring with one of the propellor blades > it's to big for being a Spant at the rear end of the He219.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello all,

Please look at CAM 2 row3 #6, this gives a good comparison of the dimensions.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Agreed. I have attached 4 images of the restored DB603 from NASM. There is a close-up of the cowl flap anchor. I believe the darker radiator segment is the oil cooler.

Kim, I also attached one of the DB603 with the rear engine housing removed, comparative to your Camera #1 Row 8, #1.

Tony

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All

Thanks for your help with "Spant mit Spreizklappenantrieb"

and many thanks to Tony Kambic for pictures.

Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Kim, found another image for comparison:

Your camera #1, row 7A, #2 and this attachment, which is the inside of the gear reduction housing of the NASM DB603. Notice the bolted concaved-edged ring with what seems to be roller bearings inside. This part is inside the gear reduction housing, so in your artefact the housing must have been destroyed but that part remained with the prop shaft and hub.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello all

The Danish He-219 is painted black underneath of the wings and body.
Please see attached no.80

Is it possible, to see somewhere, where planes with the black paint, has been based?
There must be a reason that some He-219 was painted black underneath ?.

Please see attached no.79, which is a second coating of the other He-219th

I hope that this may lead to more new information!

Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Kim,
Do you have pictures of parts with black paint?
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello all,

This is fascinating new info because there is a popular theory that only two Werkenummer blocks of the Rostock production got RLM 22 black undersides, because a few (!) photo's suggests so:
Wnr. block 290054-290073
Wnr. block 290110-290129

As a consequence, the adherents of this theory now also claim that the NASM He219 (with an ID-Tag Wnr.290202) 'must be' Wnr. 290060 because
1) this Wnr. was found on the tail during restauration
2) RLM 22 was found under the fuselage and wings
3) 290202 has not its original engines it had when it arrived in the USA

I have become one of the critics of that theory because
1) there are photo's of exceptions: He219 with Wnr. from these two blocks without RLM 22 undersides
2) there is no documentary proof that all He219 of those two Wnr. blocks rolled out with RLM 22 undersides
3) as He219's were not equipped for Nachtschlacht duties, RLM 22 for that purpose is very doubtful
4) it is very strange that if so many black He219 were produced, so few can be found at the major users, the I./NJG 1 and I./NJG 3

If we all agree that the Hirtshals wreck was an A-7 (thus having a Wnr. 310xxx) because of its DB603 E engine, yet another argument against the theory above has come to light.

I follow Michaël's plea to show us some pictures because the drawings of model manufacturers are as trustfull as the fairy tales of Grimm ;)

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Facinating info on "Black theory" or that airplane was painted black under?

News of black painted airplane is not news per se. Post #167 (17 May 2012) I mention this: "Looking at paint, I think this airplane was black under, either overall black or partly black only on undersides. Maybe no news to them familiar with He 219, but careful study of this can aid in indentification later on."

I think we are fairly certain this might be He 219 A-7 version, with DB 603 E1. Then it begs the question if letters "LXX 707" on the flap/aileron data tags also refer to Rostock made A-7´s.

Then what of painted numbers "122 123" found on outside of wingtip end-rib. One pet guess of mine in recent months be that "wing unit" (one piece wing) might have been 22nd or 23rd (A-7) wing or 122nd or 123rd (in total He 219 production, or assembled by Rostock).

Then, still no news of, if anybody has looked at "inside of hatches" on the wings underside. If so, I may have missed out on that have no info?

regards
ed

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Ed,

At least lxx is pointing to Land- und See-Leichtbau GmbH, work Kiel, Kolonnenweg (Schleswig-Holstein), see posting #77, one of the many subcontractors who produced parts for the Rostock He219's. Unfortunately, this landing flap was not typical for the A-7, the DB 603 E1 is quite conclusive.

I have no experience with the wing numbers, perhaps somebody else does.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Marcel/all,

Ok. I understand; same flaps/ailerons for A-0, A-2, A-7 and D-1. Engines be the decisive thing for He 219 A-7.

#1, we perhaps need know if similar numbers can be found on wings of 290202 in NASM - as that be same factory (Rostock) as "our" (Danish) He 219 A-7 with likely W.Nr. in 310xxx block, possibly produced a little bit earlier, so should have lower number than "122" or "123" (if the 290202 has similar numbers at all).

#2, what is known of wing manufacturers in Czech Republic (Letov?) making main wings units, only for Heinkel in Wien, or also for Rostock? How many wings made there?

#3, List of users. I belive many (21) He 219 A-7 were sent to OKL-Reserve in February, March and April 1945. Are these same as NJG 3 aircraft?

#4, Find the day RAF (Allied) soldiers first arrived Westerland/Sylt. Find the day orders were issued (by RAF) that all propellers be removed, so them aircraft captured in Denmark, could not be flown. (In context: whould it have been tempting for a RAF pilot fly a airworthy He 219 just to try out the ejector seat, or a RAF Mosquito pilot fly a captured He 219 to see if he could evade a fellow RAF Mosquito? - Note: No info on this has been found, only speculation on my part, and them He 219 moved from Denmark were flown out.)

Many questions remain. Likely there will not be final answer untill all stones be turned over.

Best regards
ed

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Ed,

To be more precise: the He219 production in Vienna/Schwechat had its own subcontractors with their own ID-codes. There are more distinctions between A-0, A-2, A-7 and D-1 subtypes, which can be seen in the so called 'Bauausführungs Übersicht He219' of the Ersatzteilliste. This shows lots of similar (standarized) parts with the same construction group number for all He219 subtypesing (the de-icing equipment for instance had main constrution number 950, regardless the He219 subtypes).

However, as advised in a very early stage when the He219 was still on the seabed, the salvage/restauration team should look for construction numbers which are distinctive for each subtype. In this case the wing would be the best chance, because the wing for He219A-0 had main construction number 501, the wing of a He219A-2 had 506 and the He219A-7 had 512. But now we know of the found DB603 E-1 engine, we already know that it was an A-7. It is a fair assumption, that the wing - if it has 512 somewhere painted/stencilled - will finally confirm this.

Now your questions:
#1: I have no knowledge whether the NASM actually had 506 somewhere but if it has, that would support my strong believe that the NASM is actually Wnr.290202 and not 290060 as rumoured elsewhere.
#2: There is some data for the Czech produced fuselages (in Mielec) but I have no info yet about the number of produced wings so far
#3: No, they are not the same and so far I haven't found any indications for an airfield full of new He219's. OKL Reserve could perhaps mean, that aircraft stayed with units without official acceptance by these units, this is still an issue to be researched.
#4: several contacts with historians of R(C)AF Squadron Associations have resulted in new, never published He219 photo's

Turning all stones over is exactly the purpose of the He219 Project I am working on (:-).

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

GDay All - FINALLY approved for posting on here! :)

As Marcel will know, I was one of those who 'questioned' the NASM WNr (and I honestly still do not know exactly what I beleive on that subject) and I do tend to lean towards the 'Black Blocks' theory also (but thats another story all together); now with my 'biases' fully disclosed, some of my thoughts.... To be honest, its a facinating discovery and I too would LOVE to see an identity discovered :)

My first comment is directed at the engines (and sorry if this sounds negative, because its not); we must be careful when defining a variant by 'consumable items' such a engines and tyres. The He219 had a quick release engine mount system, so dropping an engine out was not a big deal; additionally we know the earlier DB603's that powered the A-0 and A-2 series eventually went out of production - so what happens then when you have an a/c that needs new engines (and you can no longer 'juggle' servicable early engines across the fleet)? I feel that I just need to explicitly state that the finding of E-series engines on the a/c isn't a definitive clue to the variant.

(For example, across the current RAAF FA-18 fleet, the original engines were constantly cycled through the fleet; when the engine hours were up, it was pulled from the jet and sent off to be serviced and another engine (that would have been pulled from a different jet) was dropped back into the a/c. Then later the engines were upgraded (as engine life was nearing an end). So we had a case were (depending upon fleet mgmt and R3 scheduling) the LATE build a/c may have had early engines and EARLY build a/c may have had new engines. Just pointing out that engines are cycled through the fleet and unless you have the full Fleet Mgmt Documentation, its very difficult to assign an identity based upon a consumable component...)

My second comment is directed at thoughts that were contained much earlier in the thread about parts of the WNr being painted on the insides of variouos components. People often point to '202' being painted on the rear fuselage door of the NASM a/c as the last three digits of its ID - but there are also components on this machine that have '201' and '264' and other three and four numeral codes.

So, where does that leave us? Marcel has (a number of times) explained that the best plan of attack is to look for numbers from the 'Bauausführungs Übersicht He219' Ersatzteilliste. Yes, the E-Series Engine HINTS at an A-7, but again Marcel has pointed out, the Wing Sub-Assembly number would be the clincher (He219A-0 - 501, He219A-2 - 506, He219A-7 - 512) - also, if I remember correctly, Marcel also posted a link to the Bauausführungs Übersicht He219 Liste earlier in the thread, which shows that there are other distictive sub-assemblies to look for: Hydraulics (which if I remember right, the pumps are located in the wings/nacelles); Fuel and Cooling Systems can help define an A-0 or A-2 also, if the earlier systems are still in place, but because these systems were upgradable to the same system as used on the A-7, it also can't be used as a definitive means of ID.

Marcel, do you know exactly what the differences are between the 501, 506 and 512 wing? My thinking is, we may NOT need a Baugruppe number if there is a distinctive, structural difference that can uniquely ID the wing and this can be matched to the recovered wing-set. For example, the Steel Spar was a different internal shape or there was additional bracing structure or even just different holes/vents/panels?

As for the NASM machine again, I too have not seen a 'wing number' in any photos - LOTS of other number, from 'R30' to '130 00' and '130 00.4' to '27' and etc...

Oh and the Black paint on the lower FUSELAGE is REALLY interesting and very relevant to the 'Black Blocks' theory - if we find A-7 structures (ie, WING), this really does call for a revision of this theory.


Just my 2c worth :)


Dan

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Dan,
Thanks for your thoughts. I have asked Kim for photographic proof of the black under surface, but we are still awaiting a response.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

GDay SES :)

Best place to look will be ON the lower fuselague, between it and the front of the gun-pack. Fuselage and Gun-pack appear to have been painted separately; the Radiator cowling was also painted separately (probably by DB). I also suspect the Wing and tail surfaces also, with the final disruptive overspray applied just before (or part way through) final assembly...

If any of the fuselage sides UNDER the wing fairing has also been recovered, that will show signs of the original scheme too.


Dan

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

:)
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Dan,

Recent attempts to find (the) other Ersatzteilliste have been fruitless so far but I am not giving up all hope. I am still hoping that constructional differences between the wings of an A-0, A-2 or A-7 can be found when we were able to compare the drawings of the wings.

In advance of that, we should ask ourselves what could have provoked Heinkel to redesign the wings each time? For the A-7 we have one major difference with the older A-0 and A-2: the wish to power the A-7 with a so called Einheitstriebwerk, whether that be the ill fated Jumo222, DB603 E or G or the Jumo213.
We further know that in many - if not most - German aircraft the engines were mounted between two strong bearers but not the He219: here the engines were attached to several attachment points as part of the skin. An interchangable Einheitstriebwerk (DB or Jumo213) could mean, that the construction of the engine gondolas as part of the wing had to be redesigned and perhaps strengthened.

This is just brainstorming: same construction numbers for each subtype at least suggests that these lived on with minor to no alterations (the modified air intakes for example); different construction numbers however strongly suggest that a redesign was neccessary for some important reason and new types of engines could be such reasons. Yet, the exact differences between the designs must still be found.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

@Marcel, I generally agree with your thoughts regarding the wings. But just to be clear, I'll start from the top :)

Why would there be revisions? There are TWO major reasons that this would be the case; the first would be correcting structural weaknesses or suspected points of concern that have arisen during the operational testing and initial deployment of the a/c, while the second is (as you rightly point out) the need to include upgraded components.

To look at the second point, the desire to fit the Jumo 213 and 222 engines came about after the initial design was completed, so its quite logical to expect that the 512 wing in particular, featured changes in order to cope with the forces involved from (at least) the Jumo 213E and the more powerful DB603's - I suspect the Jumo222 would have required another redesign again due to the very different shape and weight distributions.

Another factor that may have brought about a change in wing designation, would have been the shift to a single conductor wiring layout and possibly the change in fuel system (which would have required modifying the 501 and 506 wings in order to retrofit the A-7 fuel system). BUT hopefully its not something as subtle as thing; hopefully it is a structural change!

Now to the first point - all manner of forces act upon an a/c that can go unnoticed or unappreciated for a considerable time - the best example I can think of off the top of my head (again) relates to the FA-18 fleet. The a/c very early in there career's were fitted with fin reinforcements and a small Vortex generating blade on the LERX in order to stiffen the fin and change the vorticies striking the upper parts of the fin in high energy/high alpha flight. These changes were subsequently incorporated into the basic design.

It is more than likely the He 219 also experienced such design changes - and for the sake of IDENTIFICATION, I hope i) the changes are structural (and not just wiring or something small) and ii) the changes were not retrofitted to the fleet. If the changes were retrofitted to the fleet, that will suck :)

As for parts of the a/c that remained the same, that makes sense as well - as they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!". I can see this being true for the engine covers, access doors, whatever.

As for the He 219 engine bearer design, its quite elegant actually, how parts of the load bearing members essentially form the aerodynamic structure and skin, YET still is a quick release 'power egg' type design. Not only does it save weight, but also saves complexity. :)

Good luck with examining the wing drawings BTW :)

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Unfortunately I have no news to offer Kim. Just a short note about the NASM He219. Found in the left wing heater compartment during restoration was some penciled writing on the spar, hand written in Cyrillic ( Museum experts say a blend of Russian-Urkanian ). The author wrote "This aircraft is clean, therefore there is little more work to be done".

Presents the possibliity that conscripted laborers worked on this aircraft.

Tony

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Tony,

Haven't been at this thread a while, after the announcement that further restauration work was postponed to the spring of this year, I missed your marvelous discovery that each He219 had its own cleaning servant :)

Which interpretation (English is not my native language) should I give to 'there is little more work to be done'. If meant ironically, one would expect some sort of sabotage; if meant literally, it could refer to the frequent complaints that new delivered He219's were not cleaned of 'Nieten' (remnants of the fasteners).

Perhaps it is to easy to suggest that one would expect more easily Russian-Ukrainian conscripted workers at the wing manufacturers in Mielec/Poland rather than Rostock-Marienehe, must check my papers.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Marcel,

Good to hear from you.

I provided a link to the article in Air & Space magazine which describes the find I posted about (the writing inside the He219).

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-...tml?c=y&page=1

I did have a picture of the writing before I knew about this article, so I asked an acquaintance of mine who is from Russia to please do their best translation. They responded that it stated, " I am here all alone, with very little work left to do".

The writing was difficult to photograph so I would assume that NASM had qualified translator to review it firsthand.

On a different note, since the Werke Nr. of the one engine was determined on the Denmark aircraft, I contacted the Deutsches Museum Archive about their holdings of Heinkel Aircraft Company records. They said that they only have
records from a Stuggart factory and that most of the Heinkel records were destroyed as the war ended.

I inquired about any documentation relating engines numbers to airframe.

They responded that they could not locate any such records. They did provide a few pages, which I have attached here.

I am sure that you and many others have worked with the Deutsches Museum and with Heinkel records, but since I have not seen any postings about relating the two, thought I would give it a try. I had asked Steve about it and he knew of no such documents. The Museum staff were very cordial and very timely with their responses. Maybe some of you can find some useful information in the attachments.


Tony

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Excellent documents from the early Prototypen stage of the He219, thanks for sharing them with us.

Martin

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Tony,

I join Martin's comments about these documents and the reference to the Jumo213 was a bit premature, as the further history has shown.

Martin: I have tried to contact Steffen several times, has he changed his mailadress?

We all cross our fingers for new details about the Hirtshals He219, the indications for a I./NJG 3 bird are increasing.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Heinkel He 219 A-0
Nachtjagdstaffel 1./I./NJG 1
unk
??
WNr.190107
G9 + FL
British A/C
418.Sqn Mosq

100%
Uffz. Ewald Tamke (+)
2-0-0-0
DENMARK
Cra/ Arnborg, 14km S of Herning (17.00)



Heinkel He 219 A-0
Nachtjagdstaffel 3./I./NJG 1
unk
??
WNr.190119
G9 + AK
Accident
technical

100%
Oblt. Fritz Guth (+)
3-0-0-0
DENMARK
Cra/s (2km E of Muldbjerg)?, Limfjorden area (14.00)



Heinkel He 219 A-0
Nachtjagdstaffel 3./I./NJG 1
unk
??
WNr.190177
G9 + IK
Accident
engine

100%
Ltn. Ernst Maass (w)
1-0-1-0
DENMARK
Cra/ the road Herning-Silkeborg, 4km S of Ikast (00.59)



Heinkel He 219 A-0
Nachtjagdstaffel 3./I./NJG 1
unk
??
WNr. 190185
G9 + KL
Accident
engine

?%
Hptm. Hans Eicke (Dk) (w)
0-0-2-0
SC-HO-HA
Fla/ cityboundary Schleswig (21./22.)




Hello All

1. Is there someone in this forum who know if there is any known record of WNr.190107-190xxx used by Nachtjagdstaffel 1./I./NJG 1 and Nachtjagdstaffel 3./I./NJG 1 in Denmark?

2. Symbol used by aircraft in Denmark for example (G9 + FL) ?

3. List of number of He-219 aircraft stationed in Denmark with WNR. and Symbol ?


If anyone here in this forum would like a copy of an Excel file with 18000 Loss of German pilots and 4000 German planes in the area around Scandinavia ww2,

please mail me because the files are too big to upload on this forum !!
Mail to : danas-have@danas-have.dk


Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim,

I know someone and all of the presently known He219's in Denmark, none of these can be linked to the He219 wreck, we don't have to chew that info over again. My focus are the He219's with the I./NJG 3 because I am convinced that - unless the wreck parts disclose a Werkenummer of the He219 - the key to the identification lays there... or in a document, reporting the loss of a I./NJG 3 He219 there.

Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Just curious: any new developments?

Marcel:)

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi all

New photos from today, taken from the ground looking up under the LEFT wing in the center, about 70 cm from the internal balancing weight of the aileron against the wing tip.

I will try to get better photos later.

What is the black paint dooing there???

Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Kim,
Have you found any signs of black paint on the lower surfaces? or has all paint weathered off?
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello all,

Kim. You might have one code letter there "V" ??? (say V+ ...... +V ~ or ?+V ..... ?+?, but only guessing here as not certain at all, but this looks like code letter to me) or is this black patch part of the underwing insignia? "Light brown" paint around it must be dirty or faded version of Gray or possibly other colour, or does anyone know of such Brown colour used on a He 219 A-7 night-fighter? Or is this previously unknown colour in use on He 219 ???

Best regards
Ed