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-   -   Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=60828)

Karoband 3rd May 2023 10:37

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1267

382. Radtke, p. 238, captions this photograph as "März 1945, Neuburg/Donau. Flugbetrie der III./KG (J) 54: Links: Oblt. Heinz Rall...". Rall was the staffelkapitän of 8./K.G. (J) 54 and these scenes show the preparations for a sortie. Note the muddy conditions of the airfield and the presence of a portable generator.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1268

383. In this very poor photo, the Jumo 004 jet engines of Rall's aircraft are to be started by a ground crew using the portable generator to activate the Riedel starter. Rall is standing at the right.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1269

384. Radtke, p. 239: "März 1945, Neuburg/Donau. Flugzeugführer und 1. Warte der III. KG (J) 54 vor dem Start..." Pilots and senior ground crew are seen having an intense discussion before take-off. Note the addition of wellens of white camo spray for winter camouflage.

Karoband 3rd May 2023 10:51

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1270

385. Another poor photo shows that the Me 262s have been previously been towed and lined up on the edge of a rollbahn (taxiway) leading to the startbahn (runway) in anticipation of a sortie. A karoband of blue and white checkers can be seen on the rear fuselage of the far aircraft and its hakenkreuz may be obscured by camouflage netting.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1271

386. Radtke, p. 238: "März 1945, Neuburg/Donau. Me 262-A1a der III./54 auf der Rollbahn bzw.vor dem Start." Under strict orders, an Me 262 is being towed to its final position on the startbahn by at kettenkrad in order to conserve the kerosin J2 fuel. Taxiing for just five minutes used up 200 litres.

Karoband 9th May 2023 11:03

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1276

387. The tire tracks in the mud show that the kettenkrad had to swing wide in order to avoid clipping the nose of the nearest Me 262 with the wing tip. Note the unusual camouflage and apparent lack of a hakenkreuz and a karoband, perhaps due to camouflage netting.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1277

388. What seem to be civilian technicians assist in the preparations. Note the camo netting and tow bar.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1278

389. Radtke, p. 239: "März 1945/Neuburg/Donau. Me 262-A1a, B3+GR der 7. Staffell". Note that the hakenkreuz has been censored and the werknummer, 111620, is obscured in this copy of the photo. However, the better resolution of this copy shows the KG(J) 54 usage of a large black "R" to indicate the staffel, differing from KG 51's usage of a final very small dark letter. Final preparations near the startbahn were done with the aircraft lined up in a row without towbars.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1279

390. This poor view of W.Nr. 111620 "B3+GR" shows a member of the ground crew assisting a pilot already in the cockpit, while, in the background, an Me 262 takes to the air. Curiously, O'Connell, p. 129, has Ofw. Friedrich Gentzsch "of I./KG(J) 54" flying this machine on 8 February 1945 and "it was 100 % destroyed by an air raid at Neuburg on 23 February...."


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1280

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1281

391. Off Topic: A list compiled of Jet airfields as of 24 January 1945 and the type and number of flak emplacements.

AndyMa 14th May 2023 19:38

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
More nice photos, thanks.
I'm being thick, but what is curious about the O'Connell statement regarding WNr.111620?

Karoband 14th May 2023 22:52

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyMa (Post 329533)
More nice photos, thanks.
I'm being thick, but what is curious about the O'Connell statement regarding WNr.111620?

Hi Andy,

I have referenced the photos that Radtke captioned in his 1990 book and this photo like the others dates it "März 1945" (March), however, Dan, with up-to-date info in 2005, has 111620 destroyed in February. Which leads me to ask, are all of the dates of these pictures captioned by Ratke also wrong? Were they taken in February? Just curious.

Jim

AndyMa 15th May 2023 12:12

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Aha, I had not noticed the clash of dates.
Thanks for the explanation.

Karoband 17th May 2023 11:07

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1283

392. The damage to this Me 262 A-4 appears to be the result of a nose wheel collapse sustained during a an emergency landing. This is one of four coloured photographs that I know of, taken during the recovery operation. The unique wellens of the camouflage pattern on the starboard fuselage identify this aircraft as W.Nr. 500251 that had a later white-surround "26" on its nose and was captured at Lechfeld. Higher resolution copies of these photos found on p. 74 of Brown etal., Messerschmitt Me 262 Production & Arado Ar 234 Final Operations, (JaPo, 2012) show a red "S" on the rear fuselage in the shadow under the tailplane.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1284

393. This cropping of the above photo shows that the entire joined access hatches to the cameras is missing and that the film cannisters have been removed. The upper starboard wing has much of its green camouflage rubbed off exposing the lighter under coat. This is undoubted due to the wear and tear by pilots and ground crew accessing the cockpit from the starboard side. Note the torn off lower joint tape where the nose component connects with the fuselage.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1285

394. Due to the proficiency of Luftwaffe pilots in making emergency landings with only 10-30 % damage, recovery teams needed a mobile crane capable of lifting a dismantled Me 262 onto a flatbed trailer. In this photo, the unplowed field with green stubble grass, as well as the clothing of the ground crew, suggests this photo was not taken in December 1944 but in early Spring 1945.

Karoband 17th May 2023 11:25

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1286

395. This cropping of the above photo shows the recovery team operating the controls of the crane under the watchful eye of an officer, possibly the T.O. Note that the joined access hatches to the cameras and film cannisters lies on the ground to the right.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1287

396. Here the crane operator lowers a cable to attach to the nose. To the right, what appears to be a pilot climbs onto the wing.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1288

397. Brown, etal., on p. 76 associate these pictures with "a nosewheel collapse at Brandis airfield on 1st April 1945." According to Andreas Zapf, in his online Mosquitos und Schwaben (2014), p. 145, in RL 2-III/624 (not yet posted), there is a table of strengths of Me 262 units for 10 April 1945 including "N.A.Gr. 1 u. 6" that has the notation "14 Flzge. zur Abgabe an III./EJG 2 befohlen". It is possible, even likely considering the time needed for repairs at Brandis, that the white-surround "26" on W.Nr. 500251 seen at Lechfeld was added by III./EJG 2.

Choco1961 18th May 2023 22:31

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Karoband, thanks for sharing this U3 with analysis details, really interesting.
Harry

Karoband 19th May 2023 00:45

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
My pleasure, Harry.

Nick Beale 19th May 2023 09:05

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Regarding post #248, III./EJG 2 reported having 7 “Me 262 A-4 reconnaissance” on strength on 6 April 1945.

All the reconnaissance units seem to have called them A-4 rather than A-1a/U3.

Karoband 19th May 2023 16:28

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 329625)
Regarding post #248, III./EJG 2 reported having 7 “Me 262 A-4 reconnaissance” on strength on 6 April 1945.

All the reconnaissance units seem to have called them A-4 rather than A-1a/U3.

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the catch. I have corrected post #392. In the future I will try to use A-4 as the proper muster. It may be difficult to get used to.

Jim

Nick Beale 19th May 2023 18:06

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karoband (Post 329630)
Hi Nick,

Thanks for the catch. I have corrected post #392. In the future I will try to use A-4 as the proper muster. It may be difficult to get used to.

Jim

I’m not saying they were correct but it’s what they thought they were flying!

Karoband 24th May 2023 10:47

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Addendum: A better copy of the picture in my #385 was recently posted on the modelforum.cz site, To my eye there is an ETC 501 bomb rack and only one gunport visible on the nearest Me 262.


Today's post:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1289

396. Uffz Eduard Schallmoser, on the right, walks away from his Me 262 A-1a, W.Nr. 111745, "white 5" of JV 44. According to Robert Forsyth's account in Jagdverband 44 Squadron of Experten, (2008), pp. 52-53, Schallmoser accidently clipped the tail of a P-38J and was able to land safely in this aircraft on 4 April 1945.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1290

397. The angle of this photo of "white 5" shows the uneven results of an overcoat of RLM 83 dunkelgrun that was added to many of the Me 262s of JV 44. Unlike all the other Me 262 fighter units in 1945, JV 44 carried no RVT bands on its rear fuselages. However, all of its kennzeichen numerals ahead of the balkenkreuz were neatly applied to a standard width of one half of that of the balkenkreuz and uniformly positioned beside it as seen here.

Karoband 24th May 2023 11:03

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1291

398. This photo shows the canopy has been left slightly ajar by the exiting pilot. The camouflage was applied when the flaps were fully retracted.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1292

399. In this photo of W.Nr. 111745, the hakenkreuz has been digitally removed. According to Dan O'Connell's Production Log, p.137, "Flown in combat against P-47s on the 9th [April 1945] by Uffz. Johann Karl Müller of JV 44 between from [sic] 17:20 and 18:03. On the next day, between 10:32 and 11:38, Müller shot down a P-47. It was not listed in the JV 44 inventory of 26 April 1945 ...".


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1293

400. This view shows the typical demarcation between the dark upper camo and under coat of RLM 76 weiss-blau extending even under the nose cone. The wavy demarcations on the engine nacelles are also typical. The camouflage netting seen in the first photo is now lying on the ground.

Karoband 31st May 2023 10:42

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1298

401. From Dan O'Connell, Production Log, (Classic, 2005), p. 182: "This 3./JG 7 (or 11./JG7) aircraft was lost on 21 April 1945 while strafing Allied troops. It was shot down by Pfc. Ralph V. Caputo of C Battery, of the 559th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Battalion, 19th Anti-Aircraft Group, near Klötze (Gardelegen/Stendal), Germany with a MG 51 machine gun."


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1299

402. Caputo and his unit being posed for a congratulatory gift with a senior officer.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1300

403. In this photo, the missing upper tail is part of the souvenirs taken by GIs. The extensive damage in the crash landing includes both engine nacelles being ripped off, wings crumpled and the entire nose component detached. It is unlikely the pilot walked away uninjured or escaped.

Karoband 31st May 2023 11:06

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1301

404 This photo shows a good view of the RVT bands of red/blue signifying that this Me 262 belonged to JG 7. I had previously been mistaken when identifying "yellow 3" as an aircraft of 11/JG 7 due to what appeared to be a white vertical bar in the middle of the RVT bands. However, the white band is far too long compared to other examples and, compared to the crisp demarcation of the white edges of the balkenkreuz, the edges of the 'bar' are too ragged. This was a caulking tape that was torn off in flight. This aircraft is from I. Gruppe.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1302

405. In this photo, the Me 262 clearly shows the "3" to be yellow, not white, making this W.Nr. 501221 "yellow 3" of 3./JG 7 which on 21 April 1945 was based at Prag-Rusin. The derelict has been placed on even keel by placing the nose cone? under a wing.

Karoband 7th June 2023 11:05

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1303

406. This photograph was probably one of the earliest taken of Me 262 A-1a "white 7" of III./EJG 2 as GIs captured Neubiberg in the mud and chilly rain of 1 May 1945.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1304

407. That this aircraft is from III/EJG 2 can be deduced by the position of the "white 7" on the nose, and the thin yellow band behind the cockpit that in 1945 was used only by EJG 2 to signify an operational training unit.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1308

408. This Me 262, like others used by III./EJG 2, has a kaulquappe (tadpole) camouflage on its vertical tail and rudder signifying that this component was an experimental wooden tail. On this forum, David E. Brown revealed that this example was unique in that the werknummer was located above the horizontal stabilizer and photos with better resolution reveal it to be 110376. If you look closely, you can almost make it out on this photo.

Karoband 7th June 2023 11:22

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1306

409. W.Nr. 110376 was one of the earliest Me 262s of the 110xxx series, probably first tested in early October 1944. Dan O'Connell, on p. 73 of his Production Log says "After possible service with Kommando Nowotny, this aircraft was assigned to III/EJG 2 at Lechfeld ... This aircraft featured an unique stencilled, spotted rudder which was part of an experimental wooden tailplane. Inspected at Lechfeld on 1 April [1945], the tail was found to be in good condition after 20 flight hours. It was found at Neubiberg at the end of the war, and eventually scrapped.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1307

410. At the base of the tailfin, you can just make out where a cable has bit in while "white 7" was being dragged backwards to this scrapyard. The growth of vegetation suggests it has been exposed to the elements for months resulting in the residue from the gunports bleeding down the side of the nose. The replacement nacelle cowling may have come from Eger.

Dan O'Connell 8th June 2023 02:20

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Great choice of photos!

Karoband 9th June 2023 00:53

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Thanks, Dan

Karoband 14th June 2023 10:57

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1315

411. The caption on the back of this photograph reads: "Mike Shedlock Bad Aibling, Germany 10/28/45 ME-262 Jet Propelled".

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1316

412. For the Me 262 above, I can only find four long range photos of the collection yard at Bad Aibling. It can be seen here with what appears to be a "white 7" in the fighter unit position ahead of a simple black balkenkreuz on the rear fuselage. I also believe I can see an R4M rack under the wing.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1317

413. Elsewhere on this forum, David E. Brown has identified this Me 262 as W.Nr. 111704. In the Me 262 Production Log, p. 135, Dan O'Connell gives: "111704 ... Captured by U.S. Troops at Bad Aibling or Neubiburg in May 1945. Coded 'white 7', it is believed to have been delivered to JV 44. The last three digits of the werknummer can be seen in a photo of the starboard side of the rudder." It should be noted that there was an already existing "white 7" of JV 44, W.Nr. 111744, captured at München-Riem.

Karoband 14th June 2023 11:12

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1318

414. This aerial view of the collection yard at Bad Aibling includes a view of Me 262 A-1a
"white 7". There is a glare on the rear of the fuselage that may be reflection from the paint of RVT bands.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1319

415. This photograph is an enlargement of one of three photographs posted together by Crains Militaria recently on eBay. In this photo the mottling is visible with the "white 7" seen extending down almost to the bottom of the balkenkreuz. Also, the "7" is placed much closer to the balkenkreuz than JV 44's usual gap of half the width of the balkenkreuz. It should be noted that at least two other Me 262s of JG 7 are found on the 26 April list at München-Riem, 500226 (O'Connell, 168) and 500707 (O'Connell, 189).

David E. Brown 14th June 2023 19:55

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Jim,

This "we.7" was also fitted with underwing launching racks for R4M rockets.

Best,

David

Karoband 15th June 2023 12:01

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Thank you, David. I thought I saw them. It is nice to have the confirmation.

Jim

Karoband 21st June 2023 11:05

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1320

416. First flown on 31 March 1944, Me 262 A W.Nr. 130 167 became a Messerschmitt-owned rest aircraft based at its facility at Lechfeld in June of 1944. Designated "V167", it primarily tested at first the Messerschmitt-designed Wikingerschiff bomb racks with their resulting undercarriage stresses in July 1944.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1321

417. "V167" also tested the Rheinmetall-Borsig R 109-502 RATO boosters beginning on 30 June 1944.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1322


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1323

418. In these two coloured photographs, "V167" is seen in early spring of 1945 at Lechfeld with the melting snow plowed to the side of the runway. Note the looped sensor at the tip of the nose prong.

Karoband 21st June 2023 11:23

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
forum.12oclockhigh.net/album.php?albumid=73&pictureid=1324

"This was the only prototype to be fitted with a rudder without the counter balance horn," Smith & Creek, Me 262 Volume Two, (1998), p. 391. Note the almost 90 degree angle to the bottom of this rudder.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1325

420. Here, Karl Baur is sitting in the cockpit of "V167" with a good view of the EZ 42 Adler gunsight. It was intended to automatically calculate the deflection angle necessary to hit a target while both aircraft were manoeuvering. Note the heavy wearing of the camouflage paints where the pilot climbed into the cockpit.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1326

421. The EZ 42 can also be seen in this photo. Faulty installation made the sight useless and it was locked "so as to function like a conventional fixed reflector sight," Smith & Creek, p. 332.
"By the end of March 1945 it had completed 303 flights totalling 50 hours, 25 minutes," Dan O'Connell, Me 262 Production Log, (2005). p. 31.

Choco1961 23rd June 2023 09:28

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Quote:

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1315

411. The caption on the back of this photograph reads: "Mike Shedlock Bad Aibling, Germany 10/28/45 ME-262 Jet Propelled".

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1316

412. For the Me 262 above, I can only find four long range photos of the collection yard at Bad Aibling. It can be seen here with what appears to be a "white 7" in the fighter unit position ahead of a simple black balkenkreuz on the rear fuselage. I also believe I can see an R4M rack under the wing.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1317

413. Elsewhere on this forum, David E. Brown has identified this Me 262 as W.Nr. 111704. In the Me 262 Production Log, p. 135, Dan O'Connell gives: "111704 ... Captured by U.S. Troops at Bad Aibling or Neubiburg in May 1945. Coded 'white 7', it is believed to have been delivered to JV 44. The last three digits of the werknummer can be seen in a photo of the starboard side of the rudder." It should be noted that there was an already existing "white 7" of JV 44, W.Nr. 111744, captured at München-Riem.
David, I remembered that you once stated that this werknummer 111704 never existed. "WNr.111704 appears on the 26 April 1945 Munchen-Riem Werknummer document but is an invalid number (it is one of about ten or so transcription errors)".
So, it did exist after all?

Regards and thanks for sharing the interesting pictures Jim!.

Dan O'Connell 24th June 2023 19:15

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
I think the confusion way have come from a discussion a long time ago if it was actually 110704 or 111704. 110704 was never an assigned WN but 111704 certainly was.

Choco1961 25th June 2023 11:32

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan O'Connell (Post 330329)
I think the confusion way have come from a discussion a long time ago if it was actually 110704 or 111704. 110704 was never an assigned WN but 111704 certainly was.

Thanks a lot Dan!

Harry

Karoband 5th July 2023 10:19

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1395

422. This is the original photograph that was posted on eBay by Historical-Media.com a couple of years ago. For those of us who live at 44o N Lat. in Canada, we recognize that the glint of the sun low on the horizon behind the clouds, the denuded deciduous trees and the overnight frozen ground water places the time of day as shortly after sunrise and the time of year as mid winter. For a photographer to be up so early with so many ground crew involved usually indicated this photo was taken prior to an important mission.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1396

423. After tweaking, a few more features become apparent. Both aircraft are carrying a single SC 250 general purpose blast bomb on the starboard bomb rack. This and the nose and tail markings indicate these are Me 262s of KG 51. Note the camo netting draped across the nose of the aircraft on the left.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1397

424. This enlarged cropping shows the nose cap and tail tip to be yellow with a narrow white band in front of/above a black demarcation band. The white band signified I. Gruppe and the yellow signified 3. Staffel. When you add the fact that a yellow "A" can be seen on the nose wheel door, the identity of this Me 262 is "9K+AL". Also noteworthy was I. Gruppe's custom at this time of to encircle the lower gun port with the Staffel colour.

Nick Beale 5th July 2023 10:30

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karoband (Post 330571)
424. This enlarged cropping shows the nose cap and tail tip to be yellow with a narrow white band in front of/above a black demarcation band. The white band signified I. Gruppe and the yellow signified 3. Staffel. When you add the fact that a yellow "A" can be seen on the nose wheel door, the identity of this Me 262 is "9K+AL". Also noteworthy was I. Gruppe's custom at this time of to encircle the lower gun port with the Staffel colour.

From ULTRA in February 1945:
CX/MSS/R. 450(C),6
Strength return stamped 1945/2/2:
Taking over AL 110920, W.Nr. not previously reported.

Karoband 5th July 2023 10:37

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1398

425. This is the original of one of the accompanying photos in the eBay posting. Note the same camo netting on the aircraft mid-right as that in #422.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1399

426. Jan Horn, on page 256 of Dad Flurschaden-Geschwader, (2010), captions this photograph as:
"Der 1. Januar 1945 ist ein frostklarer Morgen. Die Me 262 sind bereits an die Startbahn gezogen und fertig zum Angriff gegen die allierten Plätze Gilze-Rijen, Eindhoven und Herzogenbusch." The target for 3./KG 51 was Herzogenbusch.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1401

427. This is another original photo posted by Historical-Media.Com.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1400

428. This is a tweaked version of a different copy of the above photo. Here Me 262 A-2a "9K+BL" is returning from perhaps the same mission, its Wikingerschiff bomb racks empty.

Karoband 5th July 2023 10:40

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 330573)
From ULTRA in February 1945:
CX/MSS/R. 450(C),6
Strength return stamped 1945/2/2:
Taking over AL 110920, W.Nr. not previously reported.

Thank you, Nick!

Karoband 19th July 2023 11:00

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1407

429. This is one of the photos posted by scalemodels.ru that were taken from a film made of ground crew towing an Me 262 A-2a out of a line up using an Sd.Kfz. 2 Kettenkrad.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1408

430. This close-up view of the rear fuselage reveals that the aircraft being towed has a kennzeichen of "9K+BH white B" which means it belongs to 1./KG 51.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1409

431. This view of the nose is consistent with an aircraft of 1. Staffel, KG 51. The nose cone actually has two colours in front of the black demarcation band. The white cone represents 1. Staffel, while the thin white band behind it represents I. Gruppe. Note the staffel colour surrounding the lower gun port.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1410

432. Most authors ascribe the werknummer 170096 to "9K+BH". However, Jan Horn in Dad Flurschaden-Geschwader, (2010), states that W.Nr. 170096 was "9K+BL yellow B" citing Flugzeugstarke for 4 and 6 January 1945 on p. 222.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1411

433. This screenshot from the film is the tail of "9K+BH". You can decide for yourself if the final digit of the werknummer is a "6".

Karoband 2nd August 2023 09:59

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1414

434. This is an enlargement of an interesting photo posted on modelforum.cz in January of this year. My Microsoft Edge translation gives the caption as: "Original photo of the Me 262 from Ruzyne. Published in Nebenad Protectoratem, page 555."

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1415

435. I have two questions about this picture:

1. Why is there what appears to me to be a tape measure in the middle of the picture?

and

2. Is this a diorama?

Choco1961 20th August 2023 10:50

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Interesting ME262 on Ebay...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15572444696...m_medium=email

Karoband 20th August 2023 16:11

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Choco1961 (Post 331846)

Hi Harry,

Wow! Thank you for the picture. It is a great find.

Unfortunately, the caption on the back is spurious. A novice pilot, on 7 December 1944, Hauptmann Helmut Brocke, Stafü of 4./KG 51 in Me 262 A-2a W.Nr. 500010 "9K+KM" was probably on his first training flight at Schwabisch-Hall. On his landing approach, at low level with the landing gear extended, he banked hard left and side-slipped into the ground.

Jan Horn, in Das Flurschaden-Geschwader, (2010), p. 195 quotes an account by the gruppenkommandeur der II. Gruppe, on the crash. Loosely translated, one sentence says, "The Me 262 was about 500 m east of the runway in an open field.

best regards,

Jim

Nick Beale 20th August 2023 17:07

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karoband (Post 331854)
Hi Harry,

Wow! Thank you for the picture. It is a great find.

Unfortunately, the caption on the back is spurious. A novice pilot, on 7 December 1944, Hauptmann Helmut Brocke, Stafü of 4./KG 51 in Me 262 A-2a W.Nr. 500010 "9K+KM" was probably on his first training flight at Schwabisch-Hall. On his landing approach, at low level with the landing gear extended, he banked hard left and side-slipped into the ground.

Jan Horn, in Das Flurschaden-Geschwader, (2010), p. 195 quotes an account by the gruppenkommandeur der II. Gruppe, on the crash. Loosely translated, one sentence says, "The Me 262 was about 500 m east of the runway in an open field.

best regards,

Jim

A photo of an aircraft of II./KG 51 is a rarity but I am unsure that this one was W.Nr. 500010 because ULTRA CX/MSS/R392(C),27 says:
Personnel and QM report 7/12:

(Words smudged) a/c firing practice HESSENTAL jamming of steering unit in the air (smudge) caught fire on impact, pitot (piece torn away).

SILBER ((Me 262)) A2, Works No. 500010, 9K+KM, 99%.
The aircraft in the picture does not look like it has been on fire unless any fire was confined to the forward fuel tank, in the missing/detached nose section.
I do not know Jan Horn's source for his information. Brocke's death registration card only says that he died at »Fliegerhorst Schwäb.-Hall-Hessental« but does not give the circumstances.

I agree about the caption. If the two aircraft were shot down while taking off, it is odd that are they so close together and facing in opposite directions.

Karoband 20th August 2023 17:14

Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
 
Thank you, Nick. Grundmann's account is emphatic that there was no fire.


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