Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals

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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Jones (Post 148618)

Paul

There are well over 100-150 tins fot AHB 6 and I found one loss in a Flak KTB in 1944, an He 111 with c/n and serial.

Other tins had KTB for NJG units with say 4 bombers shot down, own losses 1 x Bf 110 and 1 X Bf 109, no c/n or serials, crew names given but I have no interest in these. I started at Tin 1 and worked through to the last one, it took 5 visits.

I was very disappointed with AHB 6 no detail whatsoever of a/c.

The are a series of films "Luftwaffe Situation Reports" from 1938 to end of 1942, plenty of pilot names but no c/n data. Each film has nearly a 1000 pages, all original documents.

There are bound volumes of RAF Intelligence daily reports, many losses for both sides but no c/n or serial apart from one Seenots a/c.
I took copies up to the end of BoB, and a loss chart in 1944. I have just given this data to Steve Sheridan (on TOCH) and by now he may have studied it to see if it gives new data.

There are the Milch films, original minutes of all his meetings on production etc.

There are lots of Rechlin reports etc, especially for Me 262 and other jets.

There is the Mintech Collection of say 2,000 films, the same collection as in Washington. Duxford has films missing in Silver Hill Washington and thye have films missing at Duxford. We looked at very on of these films

We made about 75 visits and looked at nearly everything there.

Regards

Tony

Tony, thank you very much, that's an exhaustive description of what you did! 75 visits, well that's the difference between amateurs like me and serious researchers!

I am sorry that you weren't able to find loss information for individual aircraft, but I wonder whether overall loss statistics are available in one form or another. You see, I am looking for that sort of information, that is monthly and yearly loss data, rather than individual aircraft fates.

In view of the above, I wonder if the KTBs and "Situation reports" contain monthly, or even weekly, loss summaries, so that it's not necessary to look at every single file to get a total figure. Do the RAF Intelligence reports concern RAF operations, or British assessments of Luftwaffe operations?

Is the loss chart for 1944 the same that I summarized in a previous post in this thread?

Regards,

Paul Thompson

Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Paul

I just looked at sample films on LW Situation Reports as these on operation matters, of no interest to me.

If you send you address to my private message section I will put the RAF Intel that I copied on a CD and you can judge this data yourself. From memory there were about 30 volumes, they are in the IWM Library section not the general collection.

Regards

Tony

Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Hello Tony,

I've just sent you a PM.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Below is the summary JG loss data for 1943 in the Mediterranean, from Volume 11/I of JFV:

KIA/MIA
356
POW
28
WIA/INJ
236
Written Off (60-100%)
1092
Damaged (10-60%)
826

Can anyone supply the equivalent data from Volume 12/I, to enable a comparison with the Eastern Front in the same period?

Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Paul

The bound volumes in the private Library at IWM Duxford are titled "Air Ministry Weekly Intel Reports" In 1940 they list known German losses under headings 1) RAF "bomber/fighter/coastal" 2) French then 3) Dutch
The 1944 sample losses I copied was from 9/1/44 to 16/1/44

Regards

Tony

Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Jones (Post 148665)

Tony,

That sounds like a very good source. Am I correct in assuming that the German losses are those when aircraft crash sites were located, or at least clearly observed?

Regards,

Paul Thompson

Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Hope it wasn't just a re-typed version of this one?

All the best

Andreas

Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndreasB (Post 148698)

Hope it wasn't just a re-typed version of this one?

All the best

Andreas

Hello Andreas,

Hopefully not, but let's wait for Tony Jones to clear that up.
Meanwhile here is some data from AHB translation VII/152, in Air 20/7710: Luftwaffe Losses - Eastern Front (Sep/Dec 1943)

Month br Enemy Destr br Enemy Dam br Operations Destr br Operations Dam br Non-operational Dest br Non-operational Dam
September br 232 br 92 br 82 br 98 br 39 br 56
October br 205 br 106 br 73 br 105 br 20 br 52
November br 107 br 57 br 42 br 59 br 38 br 52
December br 110 br 46 br 23 br 36 br 42 br 54
4 Month sum br 654 br 301 br 220 br 298 br 139 br 214

Regards,

Paul Thompson

Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

There's something interesting and quite unexpected in the Air translations at Kew. Since I believe it may be quite significant, I've provided a detailed explanation below:

The files in question are Air 20/7709, 20/7710 and 20/7711. These are volumes X through XII of the RAF translations of captured enemy documents. What they contain are not translations of German documents, but rather summaries of Luftwaffe losses, based on the 6th Abteilung loss lists. The surprising thing is, even though the loss lists for 1944 are lost, these tables, produced by the AHB in 1954 and 55, contain tables for 1944.
The reports are titled "Air Historical Branch Translation No. VII," numbers 133-136, 138, 139, 145-152 and 157.

A sample summary of monthly losses, for the end of 1943 on the Eastern front, is in my post above. The level of detail in the table strongly suggests that the AHB had the 1944 loss lists, or some equivalent, available to them. Any ideas as to what their primary source might have been?

The loss tables cover the following periods and fronts:

Western Front - September 1943 through November 1944, except August 1944
Defence of the Reich - June 1943 through June 1944
Norway (Luftflotte 5 West - marked this way in the source) - September through December 1943 and then July through November 1944
Mediterranean - September through December 1943 and then July through November 1944
Eastern Front - September through December 1943 only

Is a more complete set of these tables available in some other archive?

Paul Thompson

Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Hi Paul,

These AHB translations are also available at the Australian War Memorial, and at NARA in the United States (Record Group 549). The AWM has the following:

- September 1939-December 1940
- January 1941-December 1941

- Western Front, 1 September 1943-31 December 1943
- Western Front, January 1944-April 1944
- Western Front, May 1944
- Western Front, June 1944
- Western Front, 1 July 1944-31 August 1944
- Western Front, 1 September 1944-30 November 1944

- Befehlshaber Mitte, 1 June 1943-31 August 1943
- Luftflotte Reich, 1 September 1943-31 December 1943
- Luftflotte Reich, January 1944-April 1944
- Luftflotte Reich, May 1944
- Luftflotte Reich, June 1944
- Luftflotte Reich, July 1944-September 1944
- Luftflotte Reich, October 1944-November 1944

- Eastern Front, 1 September 1943-31 December 1943

- Norway, 1 September 1943-31 December 1943
- Norway, 1 July 1944-30 November 1944

- Mediterranean, 1 September 1943-31 December 1943
- Mediterranean, 1 July 1944-30 November 1944

I've got a couple of them. These tables provide exactly the same information as the Summarische Verluste documents that Andreas Brekken has kindly made available on his website. However, the AHB translations summarise losses at a higher level than the Summarische Verluste documents, the latter being at a Staffel/Gruppe level, and the AHB translations at Luftflotte/theatre level.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com