Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Kim,
I'm not quite sure I understand where the black color was found, is it part of the underwing color?
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

SES, sorry to add to your confusion, it looks like underwing code letter to me, I understand this photo be actually sideways, rotate it 90 degrees CCW and you are looking forward, under the outermost portion of the left wing, so a possibly "A" rather than "V" ???

Ed

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Ed,
Thanks. I still find this significant. If it had black letters under the wing, the undersurface could hardly be black.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello gents,

I don't want to spoil a party, but the straight black outline of the black area, the yellowed white and the nearby counter balance weight suggests (at least to me) that we partially see the Balkenkreuz.
The perspective of the photos is tricky and suggesting a letter which - to my modest opinion - it is not. If it is a letter, this would be a major breakthrough and puzzling as well because no one ever reported to have seen a letter during the salvage of the wing...

As curious as you are, all the best,

Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello again,

According to the Luftwaffe handbook, the white (now yellowed) stripe along the black cross was 12,5 cm wide, perhaps Kim could check to confirm this?

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

mmmmmmmmmmmmm...I dont think it is the cross...location is not correct, and this type of simplfied cross (no white outline) I do not think was used on the He219.

RLM02 turns brown over time when in water. It is also stains from dirt/mud. I suspect that is why you see the brown color...

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi all

Here in Denmark, the temperature is around , 0 Celsius, and they have not begun to work on restoration yet.

As you can see on the pictures He-219 Denmark no.4, the wing are lying on the ground on top of wooden pallets.

I crawl around on the ground like a monkey ,trying to get pictures of the underside of the wing.

I'll try to arrange that the wing is lifted, if possible with a forklift, so I can take better photos and measure of the painted area.


Does anyone know the dimensions of the size of the cross from the underside of the wing. (Top to bottom) ???


Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim,

According to the He219 handbook, the whole cross (black and white parts did fit into a square of 100 x 100 centimeters (each leg of the black cross 25 centimeters wide, 37,5 centimeters long)

Good luck! Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All.

@ Marcel

I have looked at He 219 A HB Teil 0.1 und 2, page 40
and I'm still in doubt.

The dimensions are, as you wrote 25 x 37.5 cm,
Therefore, there must be 12.5 cm on each side of the length (top-bottom) starting a wide cross.

If you look at the picture, there is no wide cross starting.

The top of the photo shows the bottom of the aircraft's wing where the aileron is attached.

I really hope that I will find a letter of 43 x 60 cm.

Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim,

Due to the oblique perspective it is really difficult to see how the black area (and yellowed white part of the Balkenkreuz, if it is that at all) is positioned at all. Lifting the wing would present a better opportunity to have a more distant look at the whole wingsection there.

Good luck and please relieve us from our tremendously great curiosity (:-)

Beware of the Eastern Eggs ! Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim,

Any news you can offer?

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Schade ! 30 pages, is there the Wn nd date of loss found ??

Rémi

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

No Remi, not that I know. The info if this is cross (likely not containing any white, in my opinion) or code letter should be available soon, or I hope so. *I figure your comment is on 30 pages here at TOCH! forum, and no W.Nr. and no date of crash yet. Incredible.*

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi All

I have been in touch with the people at the museum, and they have started to work again with the restoration.

I hope that there will be an answer to our questions soon.

Us who dive, has found a new object with side scan sonar on the seabed near where the plane crashed.

We hope it is the missing engine or rear end of the tail section.

There is no visibility in the water at the moment, but we are ready to jump in the water at the first opportunity.

Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Kim,
That sounds promising, we can hardly wait.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello all,

Recently I have gone through all available late war accounts and diaries of former I./NJG 1 members in which they describe (or recall) the last weeks of the Gruppe at Westerland and Mildstedt. It seemed logical to me, to start with 22 March 1945 when the I./NJG 1 was heavily strafed at Münster-Handorf and preparing to the next move to the north of Germany. As expected, this search revealed no new info, not already been processed in my databases.

I am convinced that I still don't know all He219 losses in those weeks up to VE-Day, especially the accident without personal losses. So there is still a theoretical chance, that some minor accidents and/or emergency landings (and this ditching of the He219 at Hirtshals) haven't been discovered yet.

We also know that there are large gaps in our knowledge about the He219's used with the I./NJG 3 and (if still existing) Schulstaffel NJG 1. We know further that the most - if not all - He219's found at Grove/Karup were from the I./NJG 3.

Summarizing: I am still convinced that the He219 wreck once belonged to the I./NJG 3 and/or Schulstaffel mentioned and that its loss faded into obscurity because many loss records of the last weeks of the Luftwaffe seems to have been lost forever.

As Jorn Junker knows, I have a list of many I./NJG 3 members flight logs which must be checked for new He219 identities: I hope to visit that collection later this year.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Based on the latest research by Ron Ferguson it can now been established that the a/c most probably was a A-7.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Michaël,

Since we know that the DB603 was an E-type, we were already sure for 99% that this He219 was an A-7 and because it is more likely that the newest He219 subtypes were sent to first line combat units rather than second line Schulstaffel, this He219 must have belonged to the I./NJG 3, I./NJG 1 or 2./NJGr.10 (ordered from 'most likely' to 'possibly').

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Ron sent me the update and suggested that I might post on TOCH, so here it is.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

I rather like reading 'based on research here at TOCH!' it has been established that the He 219 aircraft wreck recovered in Northern-Denmark most likely was & is an A-7 version. I have not been aware of real input from other researchers on this, and data presented here is mostly primary one and with exact detail comparison to existing example in the USA.
If this is also findings of other researches, it merely strengthens our findings, that is if that researcher is using same data as presented here in this thread and the same posted links from Denmark.
Our findings is based on armament and type of engines recovered, if I am not mistaken. The W-Nr. of this He 219 A-7 is yet to be found out.
I like asking, Has anyone commenter here been to the 'restoration facility' recently and perhaps checked under them wings in person. It seems the answer to that question still is not resolved. -ed

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi All.

Please see copy of letter sent to me by Ron Ferguson, whom I thank a lot for the information.

Maybe this can generate new information / thoughts from you all on this forum!

Dear Kim,


After close assessment of ULTRA decrypts CX/MSS/R309(A)para44 and CX/MSS/R325A/12 and other relevant material I am convinced that the following connections exist between Werknummern and Stammkennzeichen: -





You may notice that the LEMB Stammkennzeichen database (website) already contains entries for GU+BQ (Gotha Go 145) and GU+BW (Fw 44). These entries are incorrect and should in fact be CU+BQ and CU+BW.
The Stkz GU+BT is reported as an arrival at I./NJG 1 on 13 Sept 1944. Until now, it has not been possible to link this to a Werknummer. The date 13 Sept 1944 matches very closely with the dates on Werknummern 190229 and 190233, sourced from CX/MSS/R325A/12. A number of the A-0 machines in this Werknummern ‘batch’ were affected by the bombing of the Schwechat assembly plant 26 June 1944 when it was attacked by the US 15th AF. Some He 219s were destroyed and some (e.g., 190229, 190233 and GU+BT) were almost certainly damaged, repaired and pressed into service in September as per the dates indicated in the ULTRA decrypts.
This means that the Stammkennzeichen GU+Bx series was “split”. (GU+B)B to N is linked with 190175 to 190187. Interposed between GU+BN and GU+BO is a completely different Stammkennzeichen series; the BE+Jx series. Effectively, the GU+Bx series “bookends” the BE+Jx series (an interesting curiosity!)
And - just in case the question arises re GU+BA Werknummer - it's 190131 (an earlier Werknummer batch)


Best regards,

Ron Ferguson
Author, The Heinkel He 219 Research Paper


Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Kim,

Unfortunately I don't agree with this thesis about the Stammkennzeichen batches, I have done research about Wnr.190229 and 190233 and was able to link these to another Stammkennzeichen batch, by evidence found in flight logs.

Ron is however right with assuming that some aircraft of the last He219A-0 coming from Vienna were delivered much later, because they had to be repaired first.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Any update on this?

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi All

Here is a copy of the update from Mr.Ron Ferguson.

After receiving further information, I have gone back to my original records to reappraise the situation, and I regret to say that the information in my earlier email was incorrect. My thanks to Nigel Moore and Marcel Hogenhuis for bringing this matter to my attention.

Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience.

Ron Ferguson
Author, The Heinkel He 219 - A Research Paper


He-219 Denmark..
For He-219 DK, the museum need to have some meetings about the future, I will inform in more detail later.

We are ready to dive and scan for the missing aircraft parts, the water must be clearer and warmer, currently the temperature is about 4 degrees Celsius and the wind is too strong in February and March.

Sincerely,
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello,

I am still very curious about this particular He219, any news about new dives or the preservation team ? I sincerely do hope that 'no news' means 'good news'...

Best regards, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

GDay Marcel :)

I too FINALLY have a chance to check back (Last Uni exam was earlier - well yesterday now. If all goes well, I'm on research and teaching from next semester. So hopefully more time for He 219 stuff) and too wish to ask if there has been any new info?

Plus it being a 'Black' aircraft, I really want to know if it fits into the 'black-block' theory or not :)

I must shoot you an email when I finish up my last report for Uni; we reading a document earlier and wanted your thoughts on a section of it.


Dan

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Dan,

Good to hear from you and reading that you are doing well. Personally, I am far from convinced that is one of those 'black' He219, as long we haven't seen the wing underside yet.

Kim Christiansen has provided us with some promising pictures, only partially revealing something that might be the (de-colored) white part of the Balkenkreuz or something else.

With the benefit of hindsight, the preservation party could (and perhaps should) benefit far more from the supportive historian community IMHO. If they would 'feed' us with clues to work with, like they did with the engine number, we ALL would have had more knowledge about this rare bird.

On the other hand, we are not in Aalborg to clean painstakinly parts against the clock and they certainly will be fed up by all the questions/requests of curious historians like me :D

Nevertheless, the salvation of this wreck deserves our sincere respect and I do hope that the project does not stop there.

Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

GDay Marcel :)

I really want to know if its i) a black a/c and then if it is ii) at very least a sub-type. An A-2 would leave us where we are, but a confirmed A-0 or A-7 would be VERY interesting.

Do you know at what Spant the fuselage is broken (ie, how MUCH of the empennage is gone?) - looking for Schräge-Muzik specific mounting points (not present on the A-0) could help us narrow things down too... Nothing to do with the 219 is that easy though :)


Totally agree with that! Just a shame we cant get definitive answers on what exactly the wing differences are, between A-0, A-2 and A-7 and then spent a week just SLOWLY going over the recovered parts.

Did they ever manage to get the Fuselage up?


D

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi all!

It's been a long time since anything was written in this thread, but I was just wondering if there are any updates regarding this He-219?
Is the restoration/preservation still going on or are the aircraft remains on display at the Garnisonsmuseum now?

Has the elusive Werknummer materialized yet?

BR, Ingemar

He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Still Mr. Christiansen fails answer some suggestions put forwards much earlier in this thread, this is regarding markings or other (numbers) found on the wreck.
- Its also totally beond comprehension why he still relies totally on "info coming from persons, old files or other sources" instead of researching (properly) his own back yard wreck.
But maybe they do not know what to look out for.

My two pennies, but will be my final comment on this subject here.

Ed

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

That's probably just as well if it makes you that angry. There are politer ways of expressing disagreement and I'd urge everyone to stick to them, please.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

The He 219 in Aalborg is in a sorry state. As far as I know, nobody is are working on the wreck. It is laying outside covered with a tarp. I am going to Aalborg next week, and I will post a Picture when I am coming home

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Delmenhorst,

After the effort to get the wreckage salvaged, your latest 'state of affairs' is really sad to hear. This rare bird deserves better!

I agree with Nick that we should stick to the rules of polite behaviour but I perfectly understand the feelings of Ed: more that once we have offered help but when we are putting forward specific questions the team in Aalborg is not responsive. If they only turn one wing over, we could study possible traces of a marking for instance. Coöperation is a bidirectional way of communication...

Still hoping for any clues to work on, all the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

He 219 at Aalborg a couple of weeks ago

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

the rest

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Many thanks for sharing the photos with us, Delmenhorst. Good and bad to see. As has been said, what a sorry state to leave this in.

Regarding the He115 at Sola, they have done it properly, and as a result they will have a near intact He115 (I know it was nearly a complete ac in the first place but...it's the principle of doing it properly).

It is a shame as the salts will oxidise the dural/aluminium and they will end up with a pile of ally-oxide, it would have been almost better to leave it under the sea, until proper arrangements and financing had been organised.

Shessi

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Delmenhorst,

Thank you for posting these pictures ! Unfortunately, detailed photo's of a (possible) Stkz. or unit marking at the wing underside were never provided. I patiently wait for news from Austria...

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Delmenhorst, thanks a lot for sharing the nice pictures.

Marcel what kind of news do you expect from Austria?

Martin

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Wreck had been sold to Austria!

Junker