Re: Need print for high res scan; Stab ZG2 Bf110 3M+AA, at Ste Marie AF, Chevigny, Belgium, circa 20-24.05.40.
 

The 2° pic shows the wreckage of a Bf 110 which crash-landed quite hardly near the Eastern border of the wood. I was able to pinpoint the crashsite and recover... a badly corroded blade left in situ. The initial burial place was nearby and the propellor (missing one blade) served as a memorial.

ClinA-78

Re: Need print for high res scan; Stab ZG2 Bf110 3M+AA, at Ste Marie AF, Chevigny, Belgium, circa 20-24.05.40.
 

ClinA-78,

Excellent post! Thanx. Several questions to clarify what I'm dealing with:

1) The photo that duplicates the site of the wartime Luftwaffe photo looking out across the landing ground (is this still an airfield?) absolutely confirms the location for the photo as Hort-Ste.-Marie (Belgium). Is Hort-Ste.-Marie the correct name of this place, or is it more accurately called Ste. Marie AF, at Chevigny, Belgium? What does the "Hort" mean, which doesn't translate in "Google Translator?" Did you take a similar photo from that location which can be used in the EoE Project to document this location?

2) The photo in your first post is credited as "(SC),? the meaning of which is not clear to me. Do you or anyone else know what source "SC" is? This photo appears in von Eimansberger's book (Schiffer Publishers in USA), P 54, but unfortunately was not in his master collection when I visited him. So I'm left with trying to find a photo from which I can get a high-resolution scan for the profile of Liensberger's L1+XB featured in the photo. The other photo in this post thread doesn't show the nose of the nearest a/c and this is crucial to getting a good close-up of that for purposes of the planned profile.

3) Regarding the crash of L1+EH, WNr3524 at the edge of the wood line (your second post), I have both of these photos in the EoE Collection, plus several others of it and the grave sites where this crew was buried. I also have photos of this a/c before it crashed. Is it possible to send me or post a google earth image or map showing the exact site of this crash? It would also be nice to have a photo of your souvenir prop blade from the crash site. I can send you a PM with my personal email address if this will help.

All in all, an excellent outcome, so far, for some of my questions relating to this post thread. However, I still need to locate print sources for these original photos from which to make high res scans.

Re: Need print for high res scan; Stab ZG2 Bf110 3M+AA, at Ste Marie AF, Chevigny, Belgium, circa 20-24.05.40.
 

Hello Larry,

1) the strip (now grasslands) is situated 1 km SE of Ourt village (+/- 4 km E of Libramont). Hort is certainly OURT. Sainte-Marie-Chevigny is a larger (a little bit) village east of Ourt. The strip is thus between them. 'Ort' should be 'place'.
Sorry, no matching made.

2) As I don't know the author of the book, I cannot answer at the moment. I will track him.

3) the crash occured just along the Eastern border of the polygone wood.
PM sent.

Best regards

ClinA-78

Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Hello,

In trying to pinpoint where this is, I've run into the problem of which St Aubin and which Thiberville. There are several St Aubins, but none are especially close to a Thiberville. To which airfield is this referring at which St Aubin? Perhaps the unit was also based at two different locations during this period, but I don't think that this is the case. Is Thiberville the name of an airfield location near or in one of the places named St Aubin? I./ZG2 was based there from 06.08.40 to 28.08.40, so it would have had to have been a location appropriate for Zerstörer operations during the Battle of Britain.

I'm sure that one of our French board readers will immediately know the answer to this.

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Hello,

Someone sent me a message that this St Aubin must have been Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon, France, about 4 kms N of Thiberville. This area is about 25-30 kms SE of Le Havre, France, which would make sense for a Battle of Britain AF location for I./ZG2.

One thing that puzzles me, Thiberville is a actually a much larger village than Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon. So I'm wondering if the Bf110s of I./ZG2 used landing fields at both locations, or the main airfield was actually closer to Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon. It makes a difference in how we explain this. If this is correct it would be Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon Airfield 4 kms N of Thiberville, France. Or maybe the airfield was not really an airfield, but just open ground somewhere between these two villages where the Luftwaffe simply set up a temporary airfield.

Who knows where I./ZG2 actually operated from in this area during August, 1940?

Trying to ID Photo location for Bf110 of Gr Kdr of I./ZG2 taken sometime in late June 1940 to 11 August 1940
 

Hello,

For the EoE a/c profile project, I have two photos of what must be the a/c of Maj. Ernst Ott, the Gr Kdr of I./ZG2. He was appointed Gr Kdr on 27.05.40 and shot down and killed on 11.08.40 during the early part of the Battle of Britain, presumably in this a/c, which was coded 3M+AB and carried two victory tabs on the fin, neither of which are documented in records for I./ZG2.

The first photo shows a fairly developed airfield facility, probably either very late in the Western/French Campaign, in Germany before the beginning of the Battle of Britain, or at a French airfield during the first weeks of the Battle of Britain. Someone may well recognize this place, which should allow us to accurately date this location.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-L8f...-L8fTjf6-L.jpg

The second photo, which may be the same place or somewhere else, shows the same a/c in front of two hangars that are both painted with a forest of trees as camouflage. Never seen anything quite like this before this early in the war. This is distinctive enough that someone probably will recognize where this is.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-8M6...-8M6Dmb9-L.jpg

The time line when I think that these must have been taken show the unit based at the following locations, all in France:

1) Neufchateau: 25.05.40 - 22.06.40
2) Toussus le Noble: 22.06.40 - 21.07.40
3) Caen-Carpiquet: 21.07.40 - 06.08.40
4) St Aubin-Thiberville: 06.08.40 - 28.08.40 (probably can't be after 11.08.40, when Ott was shot down.

Of course, these could have been taken at some other airfields, during a stop-over, commander's conference, etc.

Since neither of the two victory tabs on the fin of this a/c are documented in unit records, does anyone have any information when and where these refer?

This a/c clearly has a red lightning bolt, possibly outlined in white, on the nose of the a/c. This lightning bolt has also been observed on an a/c (3M+AA) of the Geschwader Kde of ZG2, Maj. Vollbrecht. A yellow lightning bolt was known to have been used early on by the Gruppenstab of II./ZG26. Does anyone know if the Stab of I./ZG2 used a red lightning bolt as a Gruppenstab insignia? Likewise did the Geschwaderstab of ZG2 use this as an insignia during the spring or summer of 1940?

Does anyone know of any other photos of Ott's a/c, 3M+AB, especially the starboard side, or any of the successor's a/c thorough the end of Sept, 1940, when the unit was dissolved and the personnel and a/c adsorbed into the forming night fighter units.

Ott's immediate acting successor, the 2 Sta Kap, Hptm Hans-Peter Kübel, was shot down and killed in 3M+MK, the very next day. He was replaced by Hptm Dr. Christians (acting), and apparently later in August Christians was replaced by Hptm Eberthard Heinlein. Photos of aircraft of any of these pilots, or photos of the men themselves would be most welcome.

Who can help with any of these questions?

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Hi Larry,


Are you familiar with this book which claims to be an A to Z list of Luftwaffe airfields?


http://www.amazon.de/Flugpl%C3%A4tze.../dp/3866190549




Usual Disclaimer,
Ed

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Apologies for intruding here, but unless I am terribly mistaken the Jürgen Zapf series of books on Luftwaffe airfields only covers those in Germany, region-by-region-Thüringen, Mecklenburg und Vorpommern, Hamburg und Schleswig-Holstein, Sachsen, etc.

“Mit dieser ersten Veröffentlichung in Buchform legt der Verfasser erstmals eine Zusammenfassung zur Geschichte der Flugplätze der Luftwaffe in einer Region Deutschlands vor.”

In regard to the “Gesamtverzeichnis” volume:

Lexikon aller Flugplätze von A -Z: Mit dem 2000 erschienenen ersten von inzwischen sechs Bänden der Reihe Flugplätze der Luftwaffe 1934 - 1945 und was davon übrig blieb hatte der Autor erstmals eine zusammengefasste Geschichte der Flugplätze der Luftwaffe in einer Region vorgelegt. Bisherige Veröffentlichungen hatten in der Hauptsache die Chronik eines Luftwaffenverbandes oder das eigene persönliche Erleben in der Luftwaffe zum Inhalt. Wenige andere Veröffentlichungen bezogen sich auf die Geschichte eines einzelnen Flugplatzes der Luftwaffe oder aber auf die Geschichte der Verkehrsflughäfen. Auf vielfältigen Wunsch aus dem Kreis der Leser nach einer Übersicht aller Flugplätze der Luftwaffe entstand mit diesem Buch ein Lexikon aller Plätze auf dem Machtgebiet des Deutschen Reiches am Vorabend des Zweiten Weltkriegs. Aufgeführt werden alle die Plätze, die zwischen 1934 - 1945 zumindest kurzfristig von der Luftwaffe genutzt wurden oder zur Nutzung vorgesehen waren. Der Lexikoncharakter des Werkes bringt es dabei mit sich, dass die aufgeführten Plätze nur knapp beschrieben werden. Jeder Platz wird mit genauen Längen- und Breitengrad-Koordinaten, der Klassifizierung (z.B. als Feldflugplatz, Fliegerhorst o.ä.), einer Beschreibung seiner örtlichen Lage sowie einer kurzen Beschreibung seiner Geschichte gelistet. Ein Bildteil mit Dokumenten, verschiedenen Luftbildaufnahmen und einigen Aufnahmen von Plätzen einst und jetzt, teils in Farbe, beschließt den Band. Die ausführlichere Beschreibung einschließlich der genauen Angaben der Nutzung durch die Luftwaffe sowie Luftbilder und andere Aufnahmen bleibt den Bänden der Reihe vorbehalten. Autor: Jürgen Zapf

In other words, it’s a summarized directory and index to the 2,000 airfields in the Reich (Germany and Austria) that the author covers in detail in his 8 or 9 previously published volumes.The airfields of France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, etc., are not covered, according to the many advertising blurbs and reviews that I have read for the author’s books.

L.

Re: Trying to ID Photo location for Bf110 of Gr Kdr of I./ZG2 taken sometime in late June 1940 to 11 August 1940
 

Hi Larry,

on the profiles that I have of this a/c the lightning bolt is (light) blue, indeed outlined in white. I don't know where the blue comes from, and I understand your assumption that the lightning bolt could be in the Gruppe color. However, I have no proof of either of these hypothesis. So how can we be sure it is either blue or red?

Regards, Pieter

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Is M. Holm's site wrong? http://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg2.htm

It has I./ZG2 based at:

18.5.40 - 7.40 Neufchateau
7.40 - 9.40 Amiens-Glissy

In http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20France.pdf Neufchateau has I./ZG2 based there but Amiens-Glissy does not have I./ZG2 based there.

There is no mention of St Aubin-Thiberville that I could find.

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Just 4 km SSW of Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon is the village of Thiberville. It is quite possible that the contraction "Saint-Aubin - Thiberville" refers to an alternate landing ground between these two villages that was never used. But it is not listed in the 38-page A.I.2.(b) Gazetteer of airfields in North and West France dated 1.9.1943 that has approximately 1,064 listings.

L.

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Kutscha,

Thanx for your comments. I'm aware of the sources that say "Amiens-Glissy" as a I./ZG2 base during this period. However, Gerhard Stemmer says that there is no evidence that I./ZG2 was ever based there. He has provided a very detailed list of bases for 1940 that I gave in my other post relating to this subject last night. I consider Gerhard's data much more reliable information than the other sources. So we are back to trying to establish where in the St Aubin-Thiberville area the airfield was where I./ZG2 was based.

I./ZG2 is a very difficult unit as apparently most of their historical records, including most of their victory claims did not survive the war. We know less that half of those, and the "turks" (estimated) claims list created by Hans Ring have not turned out to be reliable. The detailed scores of a couple of the unit's pilots that have become known since these were compiled have served as a cross check and Ring's estimates for these same pilots have all turned out to be inaccurate . So it doesn't surprise me that even the airfield locations for I./ZG2 are also incomplete or inaccurate. With the EoE Project, we're trying to rectify this as much as we can, but the absence of data will only allow our team to take this so far.

Anyone who has items such as FB, or even NJG victory claims lists that take ex-I./ZG2 aircrew men back to their service with that unit, may be the only sources we ever have to improve the victory data for that unit. I keep hoping that someone will turn up a contemporary victory list, but as time passes and nothing surfaces, that is appearing less and less likely.

As I've posted before, we have similar problems with the 1940 victory lists for Gruppenstab and 14.(Z)/LG1, II./ZG1 (later III./ZG76), Stab, and II./ZG2 (ex I./ZG52), Stab, I and II./ZG26 and I./ZG52 (later II./ZG2), and III./ZG76 (ex-II./ZG1) making it unlikely that we will ever get an accurate and complete listing of "official" LW victory claims for the Zerstörer units during 1940. The only progress that we've made on this in several years are for individual pilots, such as Eduard Tratt for I./ZG2 and Elstermann for II./ZG2. Unless someone is sandbagging this info somewhere, a comprehensive resolution for any of these units now appears unlikely. If anyone has even individual scores from hard sources for any pilots from the units listed above, I'd sure appreciate hearing from them.

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Perhaps this:


http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Frankreich.htm




Ed

Re: Trying to ID Photo location for Bf110 of Gr Kdr of I./ZG2 taken sometime in late June 1940 to 11 August 1940
 

Pieter H,

We can't be sure, I'm just interpreting what I see in the photos as best that I can. Blue is neither a color you would associate with a lightning bolt, nor a Gruppe color (medium green), so I've not seriously considered this. However, I'm open to other opinions about this if someone has documentary evidence, of which there is apparently little.

Re: Trying to ID Photo location for Bf110 of Gr Kdr of I./ZG2 taken sometime in late June 1940 to 11 August 1940
 

Hi Larry,

With such shelters we can forget Neufchateau and St-Aubin.

Caen could be a serious candidate.

Must to be checked

Bertrand

Re: Trying to ID Photo location for Bf110 of Gr Kdr of I./ZG2 taken sometime in late June 1940 to 11 August 1940
 

Bertrand,

Thanx for your comments. I'll await some further review of your info on the other airfields.

Victory dates and/or photos of Bf110 of Oblt. Harald Zimmermann, 3./ZG2, during 1940
 

Hello,

I'm trying to establish confirmed dates of victories by Bf110 pilot Oblt. Harald Zimmermann of 3./ZG2. At one time his score was thought to be five during 1940, but this was later revised to seven. This suggests to me that his FB may exist, or some other documentation on his service history. Does anyone have info on his career, and especially any photos of him and/or his aircraft during this period. Establishing the a/c code of any a/c he normally flew would be very helpful. I have no photos that I know of concerning this pilot for the EoE Project.

Seeking info & photos of Lt-Oblt Gerhard Granz of 1 and Stab I./ZG2
 

Hello,

For profiling purposes, I'm seeking info on the victory list of Lt.-Oblt. Gerhard Granz, who is reported to have scored three victories during 1940, a single one during the WC/FC, and two more with the Gruppenstab as an Oblt during the Battle of Britain. I'm trying to confirm that total and the dates and locations for them.

A good photo exists of Granz sitting on the edge of the cockpit of his 1./ZG2 Bf110C, showing both the 1 Staffel and I Gr insignias on the a/c. Another, presumably from the same period, exists showing him in the cockpit of his Bf110 with the I Gr insignia below the cockpit. Unfortunately these photos do not give any information on the actual coding of this a/c, which should be 3M+_H. Does anyone know this information or have other photos of his aircraft during his career with 1 Staffel?

Another photo exists (made into a color profile in one of John Vasco's books) showing Granz and his BF, Fw Willi Schuble, beside the starboard side of 3M+BB, which would be the normal a/c for the Gr Adjutant. However, any possible victory scoreboard is not visible. Granz is believed to have achieved two more victories for a total of three by early in the Battle of Britain. As the Gruppen Adjustant, Granz and his gunner were shot down at Billericay, Essex, England, probably in this a/c, on 07.09.40. Both bailed out into captivity. The aircraft ended up a pile of junk (I have two photos of this).

1) I know it's a very long shot, but does anyone have photos of his a/c scoreboard at any time in his career with the Bf110?

2) Does anyone know if his or the FB of his BF, Schubel still exists?

3) Do any other photos of his 3M+BB exist that show a I Gr insignia painted on the side of that a/c. The photo reported above does not show one on the starboard side. I have no idea of the appearance of the port side of this a/c, and if any insignia was applied there. Note that John Vasco has kindly supplied the EoE Project all the photos that he has of Granz and his a/c.

Thanx for any help.

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

According to the Luftwaffe "Air Offensive Against England" (Battle of Britain) OB found in the surviving records of 8.Abt./Genst.d.Lw. and reproduced in numerous postwar books, such as
Balke, Ulf - Der Luftkrieg in Europa: Die Operativen Einsätze des Kampfgeschwader 2 im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Teil 1. Das Luftkriegsgeschehen 1939-1941: Polen, Frankreich, England, Balkan, Russland. Koblenz: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1989. ISBN: 3-7637-5883-6. Pb. 526p. Illus. Maps. Numerous appendices,
page 412, I./ZG 2 was based at Caen-Carpiquet with 41 Bf 110C on 13 August 1940.

L.

1940 German Painting/Poster commemorating battle
 

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Larry, et. al.

Gerhard has looked at this post and has responded:

"The entries in my list are resulting from Flugbuchs. Furthermore there is an accident recorded for I./ZG 2 at St.Aubin dated 12.08.40 which is in contrast to the entry in the surviving records of 8.Abt./Genst.d.Lw. that the unit was on 13.08.40 still at Caen-Carpiquet."

This points out the problem of incomplete or inaccurate records regarding I./ZG2 during this period. I also note that Balke records that the Gr Kdr of I./ZG2 on 13 August was Hptm. (Eberhard) Heinlein, but we now believe that that is not entirely accurate. My information is that after losing the Gr Kdr (Ott) on 11.08, and the Acting Gr Kdr (Kubel) on 12.08, that the new Acting Kdr was Hpt. Dr. Rudolf Christians, who served in that capacity for some unknown period (probably not more than a few days at most) until Hptm Eberhard Heinlein took command sometime later in August. He was Gr Kdr until the until was disolved around 25.09.40. He was killed in a flying accident on 28.09.04 during a ferry flight from the unit's last base at Toussus-le-Noble, France, to Augsberg, Germany, when the unit's assets were being transferred into the night fighter forces.

The deZeng-Stankey LOCS data base says that Heinlein was appointed Gr Kdr effective 13.08.40, but Christians apparently served as Acting Kdr for some unknown period until Heinlein, who was the Sta Kap of 6./ZG2, could arrive and take charge. It's a small point, but any further clarification of this would be helpful.

Regarding the base problem, my suspicion is that I./ZG2 was in the process of moving from Caen-Carpiquet to St Aubin-Thiberville during this period leading up to mid-August, and the issue is when they officially closed out the Gruppe command post at the former and officially became fully operational from the latter. I don't know if that can ever be completely resolved, but clearly there would have been some transitional period involved between the two places, which there would always be when a unit moved from one base to another.

This really get into the info on another post that I have active here on this unit, as I think we've identified which St Aubin Airfield we're talking about, although its precise location in the vicinity of that village is still in some doubt in my mind. That should still be able to be rather precisely determined.

Who has anything further to add here?

Re: Trying to ID Photo location for Bf110 of Gr Kdr of I./ZG2 taken sometime in late June 1940 to 11 August 1940
 

Hello,

It now would appear that the most likely place for these photos to have been taken was Caen-Carpiquet Airfield, although Toussus le Noble remains a possibility. Does anyone have any good photography of the control tower and hangars at Caen-Carpiquet during the period from June-August 1940, that would help us nail this down?

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

I have no problem with Gerhard's reply. He covers all the bases and his thoughts and facts are accurate and make complete sense.

But the issue concerning Saint-Aubin - Thiberville is still open. During offensive operations, the Luftwaffe as well as other air forces could be "based" at one airfield while operating temporarily from an advanced landing ground (Absprunghafen) where all or elements of the Gruppe flew to tank up before staging their mission against the designated target. The aircraft at the Absprunghafen could be there for a few days or they could return to their base airfield on completion of the mission. An Absprunghafen could be just a fairly flat pasture or meadow that was temporarily stocked-up with fuel and/or ammunition sufficient for one or more missions. Only the Wartungs (servicing) echelon of the Staffel/Gruppe would accompany the aircraft to the Absprunghafen while the maintenance (Werft-) echelon would remain at the base airfield.

The sum of the aggrigate information that we have in this thread on Saint-Aubin - Thiberville points increasingly toward it being an Absprunghafen rather than a base airfield (Fliegerhorst), that is, if it was actually used at all. The absence of any listing for it in the A.I.2.(b) Gazetteer of 1 September 1943 largely substantiates this hypothesis.

L.

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Larry,

Very helpful. However, when you look at the two places on a map, St Aubin doesn't really appear that much closer to the battle front over England than Carpiquet-Caen. If bomber escort missions are being flown anywhere from the Weymouth area to Brighton, including Portsmouth, then Caen would be closer that St. Aubin-Thiberville, which would seem to indicate there would be no advantage to "tanking up" at the latter AF. For operations east of Brighton and into the Channel narrows from Hastings to Margate, including Dover, then there would be some advantage to "tanking up" at SA-T. It seems like we really need more information on where the unit was actually operating to make sense of what was really happening.

While we're resolving this, the conventional LW reference sources, including on the internet, indicate that I/ZG2 was based at "Amiens-Glissy" during most of the Battle of Britain:. This includes on P.76 of the Vasco/Cornwell book "Zerstörer," which lists that base as the location where I./ZG2 was situated for the launch of the campaign against Britain.

Although the conventional sources have the unit during most of the Battle of Britain at "Amiens-Glissy". Gerhard Stemmer says "I have no reference that I./ZG 2 was at Amiens at any time..."

Gerhard lists the unit bases during the BoB as:

1) Caen-Carpiquet from 21.07.40 - 06.08.40
2) St Aubin-Thiberville from 06.08.40 - 28.08.40
3) Berck-sur-Mer from 08-28.40 - 17.09.40
4) Toussus le Noble from 17.08.40 -25.98.40.

At this point the unit moved to Vaerlöse, near Copenhagen, Denmark, and were adsorbed into EZGr to convert to night fighters.

As noted earlier, Gerhard is using FB and unit loss locations for his information. I have no idea where the "Amiens-Glissy" info is coming from. Can you or anyone else shed light on this discrepancy?

If you plot the above bases out on a map, Berck-sur-Mer moved the unit considerably NE up the Channel coast where it would be in an excellent position to conduct escort missions to the London area. This could certainly be an "Absprunghafen" for the unit. The move in mid-September to Toussus le Noble, which is just WSW of Paris, withdraws the unit from the immediate Channel coast, indicating that the unit was no longer conducting operations in support of the Battle of Britain after mid-September, and it was soon headed towards disbandment and rebirth as a night fighter unit just a little over a week later. Is that how you interpret the information? The Vasco/Cornwell book: "Zerstörer" P. 196 states: "7th September witnessed the swansong of Vollbracht's ZG2, whose survivors were all too soon adsorbed into the growing Nachtjagd..."

Who can add to this discussion? I really need to pin down where I./ZG2 was based during the Western Campaign and the Battle of Britain. Were some of the places recorded by Gerhard "Absprunghafen,' and not the unit's primary bases?

Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939
 

Bob,

Nice artwork, although, I suspect, more than a little fanciful. Thanx for posting this.

Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939
 

Larry,

It probably does give us some sense of the battle:

Whenever I hear of the Wellingtons and Me 110s at Heligoland Bight, my mind's eye envisions a night mission, not a brilliant sun-swept cloudless December sky. As I suspect the painting was officially commissioned during the lull of the "phony war" (before the great air battles to come that would make this seem like a skirmish in comparison) to commemorate this "great Nazi victory over interlopers daring to drop bombs on the homeland" and therefore based on reports and perhaps even some interviews, this painting probably gives us some sense of the conditions, the British formation, 6 O'clock High (not TOCH lol!) attack pattern chewing up the tail of the formation and the feel of the intensity of the fight at the height of the action, as well conveying to posterity a sense of the importance with which this event was viewed by most Germans and the Nazi Party in early 1940 (as suggested by the fact that this may well be one of the first "combat aviation art posters" ever printed). I think the formal yet casual/relaxed feeling 'celebratory' news conference photo I posted earlier up this page (post #25) also conveys some sense of the way this victory was viewed in official circles -I can not think of a similar photo pertaining to the Jagdwaffe in the entire war.

To me this may well an example of "hidden history" that one should always been on the lookout for, much in the way Heinrich Schliemann used Homer's Iliad to literally uncover the historical basis for the legend of the Trojan War -though I am open to being shown that my intuition in this matter is completely off base.

Seeking photos of Bf110C, 3M+AB, of Hptm Johannes Gentzen, the Gr Kdr of I./ZG2
 

Hello,

Hptm Horst Gentzen, the highest LW scorer during the Polish Campaign had run up a score of 18 victories by the time he died in the crash of Bf110C 3M+BB during a scramble to intercept an incoming raid at Neufchâteau AF, France, on 26 May 1940. The plane he was aboard was that of the Gr Adjutant, Lt Hartwig-Borris Domeier, who was also killed in the crash. I have two photos of this crash confirming that a/c code. At the time, the Bf110C had been operational with I./ZG2 for only about two months. Although Domeier had at least three victories to his credit from the PC, the port-side fin and rudder of this Bf110C carried no victory tabs. Since Gentzen was not killed in his own a/c, presumably 3M+AB, this a/c would have continued to be flown by someone else in the unit, even possibly by his successor, Maj. Ernst Ott. However, to my knowledge no photos have ever surfaced showing this a/c, which should have carried 18 victory tabs, either while Gentzen was flying it or after it was passed to someone else. Ott's aircraft was fairly heavily oversprayed on the sides of the fuselage and tail surfaces, so 18 victory tabs could have been originally applied then painted over and Ott's 2 victories painted in its place.

1) Is anyone aware of photos of any I./ZG2 Bf110, or even a possible I./ZG2 Bf110C, carrying 18 victory tabs? I know of none.

2) The dates, locations and particulars of the first 10 Gentzen victories are known, all while he was flying the Bf109D. Does anyone have any information concerning the date, place and particulars of any of the other eight victories attributed to Gentzen, all while he was flying the Bf110, and presumably scored all or primarily during the first couple of weeks of the Western Campaign?

I badly need photos of Gentzen's Bf110C for a profile of it. Had he not been killed in the described accident, he very likely would have been one of the first fighter Knight's Cross winners in the LW.

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Larry H.,

I have no disagreement with your first paragraph except to note something not previously discussed in this threat.All of the conventional postwar literature, and even the Flugbücher that have been examined, give I./ZG 2’s location in terms of the “Gruppe”.It is entirely possible that at times I./ZG 2 issued different daily target assignments to different Staffeln and this caused them to operate from different airfields, landing grounds or Absprunghafen for short periods.So, in effect, we could have the Gruppenstab and one of two of the Staffeln at Caen-Carpiquet while another Staffel or two were operating from an Absprunghafen at Saint-Aubin - Thiberville.While this possibility along with a number of others that might cause a Staffel or two to be separated for a few days from the Gruppenstab and the rest of the Gruppe complicates things, it can’t be dismissed.In this event, we could have documents stating the Gruppe was at one airfield while the surviving Flugbuch belonging to a crew from 2. Staffel indicates another airfield on exactly the same date.

Amiens-Glisy (just one “s” in Glisy):I have it here on just one date, 10.7.40, with this coming from Dierich - Die Verbände der Luftwaffe 1935-1945, and Vasco/Cornwell - Zerstörer: The Messerschmitt 110 and Its Units in 1940.Wolfgang Dierich is at the root of this.In the mid-1970’s he was asked by Motorbuch Verlag in Stuttgart to edit the Ehrenbücher der Luftwaffe (Honor Books of the Luftwaffe) as a commemorative for the Stiftung Luftwaffenehrenmal e.V. (Luftwaffe War Memorial Foundation) in Fürstenfeldbruck.These “Honor Books” date back to late 1940’s/early 1950’s when a Luftwaffe veteran’s organization located in Celle initiated a project to record the wartime history of the units that fought in the war.These histories were mainly compiled using contributions from the veterans themselves.Dierich’s edited 703-page encyclopedia of Luftwaffe flying units was first published by Motorbuch Verlag in 1976 and reprinted in 1993.So that, I believe, is the origin of the Amiens-Glisy claim.

Your second to last paragraph is a very plausible interpretation of what appears in this thread, allowing for the absence of further hard evidence.It would be very helpful to have Flugbücher from the Gruppenstab and all 9 Staffeln that cover the June to September 1940 period.Also, why was the Geschwaderstab located at Toussus-le-Noble/21 km SW of Paris city center from July through September and II./ZG 2 at nearby Guyancourt during the same period?It almost seems like the ZG 2 airfields along the Channel coast were just being used as Absprunghafen by the Geschwader while its permanent bases were at Toussus-le-Noble and Guyancourt.Finally, in the absence of additional Flugbücher, it may be that the RAF “Y” Service intercepts could provide the additional information needed to resolve these questions.

Larry deZ.

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Larry,

Lots of issues to think about here. Thanx for taking the time to share your thoughts and considerable knowledge of this. It appears likely that our whole understanding of the bases for ZG2 during the Battle of Britain needs some serious re-thinking and investigation. Without a lot of FB or perhaps communications intelligence this may be a tough one to resolve. You'd think that the main base locations for ZG2 would be easy to resolve, with the Absprunghafen only being a complicating factor. In FB entries, you'd expect that a/c to take off from the main unit base, fly to the Absprunghafen, then take off a little later for the combat mission after topping off the fuel tanks. The issue of individual Staffeln being based seperately at times away from the main Gruppe bases definitely needs to be investigated. I've noted this phenomenon with some Bf109 units covered in the Prien et.al. JFV series for the BoB.

I don't know specifically what FB that Gerhard is using, as the large EoE collection that I have assembled here in the office doesn't necessarily include all that he has or has had access to. I'll explore that with him, unless he wants to jump directly into this discussion. It's going to be important to make sure that we cover all the known FB for the components of ZG2 in order to make sure we know what can be known on this subject.

Re: Trying to ID the correct location for AF where I./ZG2 was based during early August, 1940: "St Aubin-Thiberville, France"
 

Very interesting thread! Thanks larry.
...
But please Glisy instead of Glissy; and it is pronounced "Glizi" like in zoo not "s" like in suffering ... what I do. :)

But please, you can resume this work.

Best regards, Franck.

Seeking info on career of Oblt. Hans Jurgen von Dvenning, Sta Kap of 3./StG76 as of 01.09.39
 

Hello,

Marius Emmerling lists this man as the Sta Kap of 3./StG 76 at the beginning of the Polish Campaign. I can't find any reference to him elsewhere. Does anyone know anything about this career and how long he served with 3./StG76?

The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

This thread is here to provide a single point of reference for all questions and answers about the Axis side of the EoE project. (Carry on posting as normal about Allied questions on the Allied/Soviet forum).

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Nick,

Thanx for the work that went into transfering the EoE Project Posts to a new subheader. I had no idea that it ran to 31 pages.

Regards,

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

I've only transferred the ones since 1 May 2014 so far — you've been busier than you think!

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Hello,

Seeking first name of pilot from Stab KG77 that FL his Do17E in Germany during Polish Campaign on 03.09.39: Oberlt [ ] Kaschna.

Who can help?

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

I have Olt Willy Kaschner instead of Kaschna.

Matti

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Matti,

Thanx. That must be the man.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Yep, Good idea ...
I was just looking for one plane, thinking F19Gladiator made a comment ... Just 31 pages to scroll down ... Brillant idea!

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

;)

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Mmmmm, all the subjects in one string......not a good idea imho. Rather would have the different subjects seperate under one folder....