Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

To all internautes…

Of course. I apologise… I was fighting for weeks to get those documents that I had already seen. This is so logic…

All my messages had only one goal : I wanted to get a copy of those documents to complete my researches on this sad air combat…

Now we are going nowhere except to hell… : messages getting more and more aggressive.

But be sure that I have nothing against Mr Roger Pierre or Mr Many Souffan. I am not angry at all. I am not that kind of person. In fact I like the way they fight for their idea… This is great and I will always encourage this. I love our liberty. This forum is perfect. Anybody could speak freely…

But now this is time to leave because I am sure I won’t get any answer… I regret it. I thought this forum would help me.

Anyway the truth will be published soon in French and in English in memory of those airmen killed in action on that 14th May 1940 by French fighters of GC III/7…

Yours sincerely


Arnaud Gillet

FRANCE

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

I have been following this thread with interest in the hope that it might throw further light on the exact circumstances of the losses to No.142 Squadron on May 14, 1940. Regretably, however, it now seems increasingly unlikely that any valid evidence of historical value is going to result. So my own view, for what it is worth - but it has been sought, and in the absence of any substantive evidence to the contrary, must remain as stated in The Battle of France Then & Now.

Improbable as it no doubt is, Arnaud Gillet’s assertion that the losses were a result of mistaken attacks by GC III/7 does, at least, equate to currently available documentary evidence particularly with regard to the times and location of Allied claims and German losses. That was my judgement when, (with some reservation it has to be said), I accepted this view during preparation of my own work. If this be discredited as a result this is entirely my own doing.

So, while I remain impartial, I am favourably inclined towards the alternative scenario as described by Many Souffan, although this currently requires me to acknowledge the loss of six Hs126 not reported in the Lw General Quartermaster Returns*, and also accept four Fairey Battles shot down by Bf109Es that similarly went unrecorded in the OKL Fighter Claims. A version of events that seems equally implausible to that proffered by Arnaud Gillet.

*While any record-keeping system can be flawed, the suggestion that aircraft losses to Lw units detached or operating as subordinate to the Heer were not routinely reported through Lw channels in the normal manner is not the answer. It also ignores the fact that every one of the units cited submitted losses to the Genst.Gen.6.Abt. under the heading Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.H. between May 11 and May 19, 1940. Though none of these reported losses conform to the details quoted by Many Souffan.

Finally, whether Many Souffan is fully aware of its origins or not - for I know such information can circulate, Arnaud Gillet is probably close to the truth when he suggests the late Heinrich Weiss as a possible source for the intriguing list of (otherwise) unrecorded Hs126 losses on May 14, 1940. The Weiss narrative certainly contains this exact same information but, unfortunately, without comment as to his own original source. This ‘magic bullet’ therefore remains uncorroborated but I remain hopeful that we may yet arrive at the true facts of this matter.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Arnaud,

On the 14th of May 1940, No.142 Squadron was operating from Berry-au-Bac, sharing this airfield with No.1 Fighter Squadron. On this same date No.67 Wing H.Q was at Guignicourt.
Many told about No.142 Squadron C.O's report, and a citation. 7 crews returned to the squadron.
Peter, all 4 Battles were not necessarily lost to 109's!
Peter has explained why he tends to share your opinion regarding these losses.
Many hasn't published anything yet. Anyway, I know the man, his motivation and I trust him.
I have my own opinion.
But as you have written and published, and are selling your book.
Please you tell us wich is the source that allows you to declare that these Battles were shot down by French Fighters !!

Many thanks.

Regards.

Bernard.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Bonjour.

Thank you Peter for your answer. Disappointed to wait for so long your post.

I would like to give the anwser in his original language for the 4 Hs 126 concerned.

unfornutaly, I don't speak or write, or understand German, It is a great handicap for me when I go to the Ba-Ma, but it is not so important for me, as I said in a previous post, I go always where my subject is. I like the communication.

If I give these infos in his original language, is to know what think the specialists of the Luftwaffe, that all.

I will give, in a very next future the list of the Luftwaffe units attached to the Heer at the 10th may 1940. And I repeat if there were some losses in these units, you will find them with the Heer.


Chemery 12.54; 1 Hs 126B der 3.(H)/21; Aufklärung fur das XIX.AK mot; durch Jager beschadigt >60% und Notlandung hinter den eigegen Linien: Crew unver­letzt.

Chemery 13.00; eine Hs 126B der 2. (H)/23 Pf der 1.Panzerdivision; durch Jäge schwer beschädigt und nach deutschen Angaben bei Jehonville 7 km nordwestlich Betrix abgestürzt. Crew Fallschirmabsprung, dabei Beobachter (Bo) Fw.d.Res. Franz Pörr verwundet.

Vendresse; eine Hs 126B der 3.(H)/21 des XIX.AK mot.; durch Jäger beschädigt und mit >60% Bruch hinter den eigenen Linien notgelandet, Crew unversehrt.

Villers Ie Tilleul; eine Hs 126N der 1. (H)/11 PZ, die für die 7.Panzerdivisio nördlich Le Chesne aufklärte. Durch Jägerangriff beschädigt, machte die unverletzte Besatzung bei der Notlandung Bruch >60%;

thank you Arnaud for your kind post but why to finish with these words:
Anyway the truth will be published soon in French and in English in memory of those airmen killed in action on that 14th May 1940 by French fighters of GC III/7…

The memory of these Germans is better than the French Fighters of III/7, or the British crews of Battle of 142 Sqn. ? ? ? Tell me ? ? ?

Ps: Don't forget to share your sources you didn't write in your 3 books.

Sincerely yours

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Ooops!!!

I forget to say my document is a letter in German of this searcher, and I give a part of this letter

Thank you

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Thank you Many, I appreciate that you are doing what you can to satisfy questions as to your sources, but simply having the same information now presented in three different languages gets us no further forward I'm afraid. The source of the original documentary evidence would at least allow us to better evaluate its potential value and significance but I accept that you may not know this. Also, my earlier comments with regard to Lw casualty reporting still apply.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Have rather overlooked this thread. Firstly let me say I have a lot of respect for the research efforts of Arnaud.

I thought it would be useful to add the full text of the three gallantry recommendations for this action, which are below. These are contemporary sources signed four days after the action and one must remember that the award is for ‘in the face of the enemy’ so any Senior Officer signing such a recommendation is going to make as sure he can be the facts are right.

Note:
Planes are Messerschmitts
There were nine attacking planes
The attack continued as enemy ground forces were being bombed
The attack was over enemy lines

I suspect we will never know the truth of the incident but this combined other reported accounts by other aircrew present leave me with a balance of probability that it was German planes.

Best regards

Iain

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

BARBROOKE, Drury John (551271) Corporal (Wireless Operator/Air Gunner)
D.F.M. (Immediate)London Gazette 31 May 1940
Recommended 18 May1940,

The above named airman is strongly recommended for the immediate award of the Distinguished Flying Medal for his efforts in a raid on an enemy convoys on 14th May 1940 a summary of which is as follows:-

Whilst approaching the target his machine was attacked by nine Messerschmitts who completely shot way all the tail controls. Whilst the aircraft was rapidly losing height, four bombs were dropped, two of which were on the target. During the aircrafts dive to the ground, this airman, as Air Gunner, kept up a continuous fire at the enemy fighters. Corporal Barbrooke had to make his own way back to the aerodrome together with the Air Observer after taking the pilot to hospital suffering from burns. He covered many miles on foot, was arrested as a spy and spent one night in custody.


KITTO, Richard Vellenoweth Trethewey (563186) Sergeant (Observer/Navigator)
D.F.M. (Immediate)London Gazette 31 May 1940
Recommended 18 May1940,

The above named airman is strongly recommended for the immediate award of the Distinguished Flying Medal for his efforts in a raid on enemy convoys on 14th May 1940.

Whilst approaching the target his machine was attacked by nine Messerschmitts who completely shot way all the tail controls. Whilst the aircraft was rapidly losing height, four bombs were dropped, two of which were on the target. During the aircrafts dive to the ground, this airman, as Air Observer, kept up a continuous fire at the enemy fighters. Sergeant Kitto had to make his own way back to the aerodrome together with the Air Gunner after taking the pilot to hospital suffering from burns. He covered many miles on foot, was arrested as a spy and spent one night in custody.

SPEAR, Arthur Nolan (561369) Sergeant (Pilot)
D.F.M. (Immediate) London Gazette 31 May 1940
Recommended 18 May 1940

After successfully dropping his bombs, he was attacked by Messerschmitts, the tail of his aircraft being shot away. He ordered his crew to abandon the aircraft. He himself was thrown out whilst preparing to jump and landed by parachute in enemy territory. He was repeatedly under enemy fire but, through sheer determination and assistance of horse, succeeded in overcoming each obstacle as he met it, including swimming a canal, and made his way back to his unit. This was the second occasion within a week on which Sergeant Spear had been forced down whilst operating against the enemy.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Bonjour,

I see now clearly what happened... I would like to thank all of them for this super chat... High show...

I wonder if someone as M. Ian Torrance could add something else to add to this mission of No 142 Squadron... I will soon receive several photographs from I.W.M. but airmen are unidentified like the one coded C. 403.

Does anybody know one of the families of those pilots of No 142 Squadron ? Does anybody have photographs about this squadron or about airmen who took part on that mission. I am also looking for pilot's log books. I contact some museums, but without success...

I will be thankfull to all people who would like to help me... and will thank them officially in my little book dedicted to this unique mission of May 14th 1940 to be published soon. I hope this year but the translation in english take time.

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello!

Firstly Thank you Iain, Paul, Peter and Franck

Franck, just a little question, I liked your link, but why you give WT as code for the 142 Sqn. It is not QT?


In your post 61Arnaud, you have written in French this:
- un Henschel 126 de la 2.(H)/23, Feldwebel Pörr (lire Dörr), posé à Chémery à 13.00. »

I translate which is in bold: Feldwebel Pörr (read Dörr). How do you know is Dörr? Incredible! It is really Pörr! Maybe you made a mistake with the famous Fighter pilot of JG 5 Franz Dörr (RK, 132 Victories) !?!? Maybe for some gentlemen this remark can be insignificant, but not for me, because it seems to say by this affirmation, that Mr Gillet knows better than me, the fact…

I would like to translate only one line of the first book of Mr Gillet about the French victories during the Battle of France. There is at the end of this 1st opus, a recapitulation in form of table in 2 columns between French claims and German losses

Down page 132, it is written, always for the 14th may 1940
1st column: 1 II/1 10.30 am Cne Coiral, Lt maurin, Sgt Largeau 1 Hs126, in flames at Vrignes-aux-Bois, confirmed by Z.O.A.N
2nd Column: no Hs126 damaged or shot down reporting in this sector. Approx 3.15 pm, a Fairey Battle, Sqn 12 (L4950) shot down at Vrignes-aux-Bois.

When you read the 2 columns, as reader, it is possible to make a little confusion and to say here too another battle shot down for Hs 126 by 3 French Pilots of GC II/1 in their Bloch 152. Because Arnaud Gillet, affirms no Hs 126 damaged or shot down in this sector.

What said the German document?
14.5. Vrigne au boise; 1 Hs 126B der 1. (H)/14 Pz, die für die 2.Panzerdivision auf­klärte; bei Vrigne au bois durch frz. Jäger schwer beschädigt, die Crew sprang über eigenen Gebiet unverletzt mit den Fallschirmen ab.
Do you think that some French pilots are Liars?
Why so much affirmation in your text?
You must know Arnaud Gillet, it is always difficult to match documents and you must have patience, reflexion, and if it is not sure, problematic, you can add some words as maybe, probably, it is possible, sorry my English is poor to translate what I think in French.

Since the beginning of this thread, I ask you and not only me, to give or as you like to share with us your sources, that I repeat you didn't put in your books.
But it is easy for you to forget to give sources. Maybe you don't have sources? , Maybe it is only your imagination ? or you are thoroughly convinced that it happened like that? it is maybe only feeling? Maybe you thought that you had in hand a scoop? who Know?

Sorry, but I try my best to understand, and I repeat, all that, is without angryness and always with respect for your person. For me, the most important is the Memory of all brave young men; French, German & British, These unknown heroes deserve to be rewarded for what they done. And for many of them they gave their life... When you understand the past, you can see the future clearly...

Thank you.