Clostermann official score
 

Gents
Here is the official scoreboard for F/Lt P. N. CLOSTERMANN D.F.C & Bar by Fighter Command as found on the web. I have excluded ground target scores except aircraft.
Now, let's have some fun, and see how much the score reflects actual losses. I have had a very brief look only, might be a problem at times, due to lack of information. Othewise I need to find my Normandy database, so I cannot add anything at the moment.
Franek



341 Squadron
2 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air. (27/7/43)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (27/8/43)
1 Messerschmitt 109 damaged in the air (17/6/43)
1 Messerschmitt 109 damaged in the air (26/10/43)
602 Squadron
1 Messerschmitt 109 destroyed in the air (15/6/1944)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (26/6/1944)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (29/6/1944)
1 Messerschmitt 109 probable in the air (26/6/1944)
1 Focke Wulf 190 probable in the air (28/6/1944)
1 Messerschmitt 109 probable in the air (30/6/1944)
1 Focke Wulf 190 damaged in the air (7/1/1944)
2 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (2/7/1944)
2 Focke Wulf 190 damaged in the air (2/7/1944)
274 Squadron
1 Messerschmitt 109 destroyed in the air (5/3/1945)
1 Messerschmitt 109 destroyed in the air (14/3/1945)
1 Messerschmitt 109 probable in the air (14/3/1945)
1 Messerschmitt 109 probable in the air (14/3/45)
56 Squadron
1 Fieseler 156 destroyed in the air (28/3/45)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (2/4/45)
1 Junkers 88 destroyed in the air (5/4/45)
2 Focke Wulf 190 damaged in the air (5/4/45)
2 Junkers 188 damaged on ground (2/4/45)
1 Junkers 188 probable on ground (5/4/45)
3 Junkers 88 damaged on ground (5/4/45)
3 Squadron
2 Focke-Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (20/4/1945)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (3/5/1945)
2 Dornier 24 destroyed in the air (3/5/1945)
1 Junkera 252 destroyed on t.o. (3/5/1945)
1 Blom & Vhoss 138 destroyed on ground (3/5/1945)
1 Junkera 352 destroyed on ground (3/5/1945)
2 Dornier 18 destroyed on ground (4/5/1945)
2 Heinkel 177 probably dest. on ground (19/4/1945)
2 Heinkel 177 damaged on ground (19/4/1945)
2 Focke Wulf 190 damaged on ground (2/5/1945)
2 Arado 232 damaged on ground (3/5/1945)
2 Dorniers 18 damaged on ground (4/5/1945)
TOTAL SCORE for 341, 602, 274, 56 and 3 Squadrons
Aircrafts destroyed in the air: 19
Aircrafts destroyed on the ground: 4
Airorarts prob. destroyed on ground: 3
Aircrafts prob. destroyed in the air: 5
Aircrafts damaged in the air :8
Aircrafts damaged on the ground: 13
As member of a pair or a flight of four aircrafts, has participated to the destruction of 8 FW 190, 4 Me 109, Ju 290 and 1 He 111(in the air.) and of 1 Ara. 232, and 2 Do 18's (on the ground.)

Re: Clostermann official score
 

There was a very interesting examination of Clostermann's RAF career in the French magazine Avions No. 227 (Jan/Feb 2019) by Christophe Cony. He concluded that Clostermann had 14 kills, 4 probables and 8 damaged in the air; 9-5-9 on the ground; also one unconfirmed damaged in the air.


Also of interest was that Clostermann had been a journalist before the war, which probably explains how he was able to write such a vivid and exciting book.

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Nick
This is official RAF Fighter Command summary. Just what has been credited to Clostermann. The other question is, what actually fell down.
Franek

Re: Clostermann official score
 

The article does deal with that.

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Hi Franek,

"found on the web" might be doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

I haven't read the article Nick referenced, but I did go through the following sources from The National Archives some time ago with regard to Clostermann's 1945 claims:

AIR 37/829 - Weekly Reports of Enemy Aircraft Losses inflicted by 2nd TAF (these reports were updated and amended as new info came to hand)
AIR 50 - combat report series
AIR 27 - Squadron ORB series

The one source I haven't checked re: Clostermann is AIR 37/5 - 2nd TAF Log of Casualty Claims, Assessments and Losses. This file is likely as definitive as a single source can be.

Anyway, the following is what I noted (FALSE means the claim is not recorded in any of the three sources mentioned, but I haven't checked TNA AIR 37/5. CR means a Combat Report exists in TNA AIR 50. 2nd TAF EAL means TNA AIR 37/829):

5/3/45 274
1 x Bf109 DES (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "In HENGELO area")

14/3/45 274
1 x Bf109 DES (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X
2 x Bf109 probable DES (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X

28/3/45 56
1 x Fi156 DES on the ground (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "A.8989")

2/4/45 56
1 x Fw190 DES (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "On VECHTA A/F")
2 x Ju88 DAM on the ground (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "On VECHTA A/F")

5/4/45 56
2 x Fw190 DAM (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "Patrols & Armed recces RHEINE-LINGEN-MEPPEN")
1 x Ju88 DES (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X

20/4/45 3
2 x Fw190 DEST (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL, these and other claims "NEURUPPIN area and A/F's at ORANIENBURG, HAGENAU, FLENSBURG, NORDHOLZ")

3/5/45 3
1 x Fw190 DES on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (3 Sqn pilots Walker & West each claimed a Fw190 DES on the ground and these appear to be the only two such claims credited to 3 Sqn)
2 x Fw190 DAM on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (2 such claims by 3 Sqn are acknowledged in a tabular summary for 3/5/45 in TNA AIR 37/829. I suspect these will be listed in TNA AIR 37/5, and might identify Clostermann)
2 x Do24 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DEST, 1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL)
1 x Ju352 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL)
2 x Bv138 DAM on the ground or water (CR)
2 x Ar232 DAM on the ground or water (CR)

4/5/45 3
2 x Do18 DES on the ground or water (CR)

As can be seen, this list differs from the one you presented. I am not saying mine is definitive, only that a clear set of agreed claims needs to be established first, especially if wanting to link claims to Luftwaffe losses. I expect TNA file AIR 37/5 should provide clear answers. Christophe Cony might have consulted this source, I don't really know.


I have one page from TNA AIR 37/5 that happens to have a Clostermann claim listed. It serves to illustrate the importance of this primary source document:

DATE: 28 Mar.
SERIAL: 362/III
GRP: 83
SQN: 56
PILOT CLAIMING: F/L Clostermann
E/A CASUALTIES: TYPE OF A/C: Fi.156
E/A CASUALTIES: CLAIMS: 1 Des
FINAL ASSESSMENT: 1 Fi.156 DES
OWN CASUALTIES: A/C: 2 Tempests Cat E
OWN CASUALTIES: PILOTS: Sgt Sheppard missing
REMARKS: A/R's RHEINE-MUNSTER-HANNOVER. E/A destroyed on the ground A.8989. 1 a/c, 3 Sqn, hit by flak pilot safe.

Cheers

Rod

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Cony's article doesn't give references but does thank Chris Thomas, Matti Salonen and Jean-Claude Mermet. I'd feel confident that if anyone has read all relevant the 2TAF files, it's Chris Thomas. Cony also thanks someone for transcribing all of Clostermann's second logbook (apparently photography is forbidden by the family).


From Franek's original post, I wasn't aware that Fighter Command, unlike the Luftwaffe, ever maintained official tallies of pilot's scores (not to mention that Clostermann made the bulk of his claims with 2TAF).

Re: Clostermann official score
 

The AHB has a cardex system listing all pilots by name and their claims so someone in the war did keep a tally

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Rod
The document is on display in the French museum, someone took a photo and posted it on the FB. I have just did a copy and transcribed it. It does look authentic to me.
Thanks for your comments, and yes, it poses a few querries in regard of some claims. I would not bother if this was some later compilation, but as noted it looks proper 1945 document.
I have send the document to Chris Thomas, and let him know of the thread, so I am awaiting his comments. As far he noted that he have heard of the document, but never seen it before.


Nick
There was a victories verification & recording system for the RAF. I have seen numerous random documents proving there was such a system, including a one stating that for some reason in 1942 all scores were revised. I have not seen any documents originating from the office, though, or descrbing the organisation. I have not seen cardex records, but I assume they were in Hollerith system allowing to produce statistical data automatically. There is still a lot to be written about Admin & SD!


Franek

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Hi Franek,

I just checked another 2nd TAF document I have - TNA AIR 37/692: 2ND TACTICAL AIR FORCE: Task statistics: daily operations etc.

This is a chronological summary of every 2nd RAF mission, listing: Date / the mission serial / Type and number of aircraft involved / Sqn/Wing / Time up / Time down / Claims on the ground / Enemy aircraft Des, P.D. Dam / Own losses / Remarks.

I just checked all the Tempest missions flown on:

14 March 1945:

4 x Tempests, 3 Sqn /122 Wg, 10.49-12.02h.

24 x Tempests 3, 56, 486 Sqns/122 Wg, 09.10-14.54h.

20x Tempests 33,222 Sqns/35 Wg, 11.36-13.18h.

56 x Tempests 3, 56, 80, 274, 486 Sqns/122 Wg, 13.25-18.18h.

All these missions produced no claims on the ground and no claims against enemy aircraft.

This is the date Clostermann reputedly claimed three Bf109s.

5 April 1945:

8 x Tempests 274 Sqn / 135 Wg, 06.44-09.15h.
9 x Locos, 15 x MET damaged on ground.

16 x Tempests 222, 33 Sqns/135 Wg, 07.42-11.15h
6 x MET destroyed, 25 x MET, 2 x locos, 2 x Trg damaged on the ground by 222 Sqn. 2 x MET, 1 x loco damaged on the ground by 33 Sqn.

8 x Tempests 56 Sqn/122 Wg, 07.10-10.30h
6(?) x MET destroyed, 19 x MET damaged, 14 x TRG damaged on the ground.

16 x Tempests 80, 486 Sqns.122 Wg, 07.48-10.30h
25 x MET, 1 x loco, 6 x Trg damaged on the ground by 80 Sqn. 9 x MET destroyed, 13 x MET damaged on the ground by 486 Sqn

2 x Tempests 274 Sqn/131 Wg, 17.48-18.44h (weather recce)

4 x Tempests 56 Sqn/122 Wg, 11.15-13.18h
2 x Fw190s damaged by F/Lt. Clostermann

14 x Tempests 80, 486 Sqns/122 Wg, 12.15-18.30h
2 x MET destroyed, 1 x MET damaged by 80 Sqn. 1 80 Sqn aircraft Cat E due to flak, pilot safe

This is the date Clostermann reputedly claimed a Ju88 destroyed in the air.

28 March 1945:

8 x Tempests 56 Sqn/122 Wg (blanket time of 12.58-14.40h includes Spitfires, Tempests, and Typhoons)
2 x Trg destroyed, 12 x MET damaged on the ground. 1 x E/A destroyed.
Remarks: MUNSTER - HERFORD - DIEPHOLZ. 1 Fi.156 destroyed on the ground A.8989. 3 guns towed N.E. A.7564. Ambulance seen towing guns N.E. FULMEN - MUNSTER road.

So, this is a second primary source that confirms Clostermann's Fi.156 claim on 28 March 1945 was on the ground and not in the air.

3 May 1945:

Boy, this one is complicated... : ) I will only list the Clostermann claims. TNA AIR 37/5 would provide final claim confirmation status.

32 x Tempests 122 Wg, 05.50-10.14h
3 Sqn: Well camouflaged landing strip O.1337 with 8 black camouflaged Fw.190 loading yellow bombs, strafed and F/L CLOSTERMAN claims 1 destroyed and 2 damaged [on the ground]. 1 destroyed by F/L HUGHES and 1 destroyed by W/O SAUNDERS and F/L LONGLEY [on the ground]

4 x Tempests 3 Sqn/122 Wg (blanket time of 15.21-21.15h includes multiple sorties by different aircraft and squadrons)
KIEL/ 1 Do.24 dam, 1 Do.24 dest, 2 BV.138 dam, 2 Ar.232 dam, 1 Ju.352 damaged (ground or sea) by F/L CLOSTERMAN. 1 Ju.52 dest (ground) by F/L LONGLEY. Land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE attacked.

4 May 1945:

9 x Tempests 3, 486 Sqns/122 Wg 14.10-16.30h
FEHMARN - FAABORG - SYLT. 1 Me.110 dest, 2 Do.24 dam, 2 He.115 dam, F/L LONGLEY. 1 BV.138 des W/O MALIN. 2 Do.18 dest F/L CLOSTERMAN - all on ground or sea. A/C at SCHLESWIG C.3164 on ground.

4 x Tempests, 3 Sqn/122 Wg, 14.10-16.30h
Area as above. 2 Ju.352 dest, 2 Do.24 dest F/O WEST. 1 Ju.352 dest, 1 Do.24 dest, 1 Ju.353 [sic] dam, 1 Do.24 dam F/L WALKER - all on ground. Ju.352's and Ar.232's seen O.1775. Do.24's at SCHLESWIG seaplane base C.3164.

Franek, to compare 3 and 4 May to your list:

1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (3/5/1945): 1 FW.190 DEST on the ground, landing strip at O.1337
2 Focke Wulf 190 damaged on ground (2/5/1945): 3/5/1945, 2 FW.190 DAM on the ground, landing strip at O.1337 [no claims made on 2/5/45]
NOTE - TNA AIR 37/829 (as per my earlier post) only had 2 x Fw.190 DEST & 2 Fw.190 DAM on the ground by 3 Sqn. AIR 37/692 shows 3 Sqn claimed 5 Fw.190 DEST & 2 FW.190 DAM on the ground throughout the day


2 Dornier 24 destroyed in the air (3/5/1945): 1 Do.24 DEST & 1 Do.24 DAM in the ground, land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE
2 Arado 232 damaged on ground (3/5/1945): 2 Ar.232 DAM on the ground, land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE
1 Junkera 252 destroyed on t.o. (3/5/1945): NOT LISTED
1 Blom & Vhoss 138 destroyed on ground (3/5/1945): 1 BV.138 DAM on the ground, land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE
1 Junkera 352 destroyed on ground (3/5/1945): 1 Ju.352 DAM on the ground, land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE


2 Dornier 18 destroyed on ground (4/5/1945): 2 Do.18 DEST on the ground at SCHLESWIG C.3164
2 Dorniers 18 damaged on ground (4/5/1945): Duplicate of above claims

AIR 37/5 would confirm the final adjudicated status of these May 1945 claims.


I had heard about Clostermann having a genuine document listing his claims, reputedly signed by AVM Harry Broadhurst. Nevertheless, the document still needs to be validated and not contradicted by other contemporary records.

Cheers

Rod

Re: Clostermann official score
 

A quick history of Clostermann's score evolution:

After the War the French Air Force quoted his score as 33 (+5 probables as the 19+14 shared from the Broadhurst November 1945 document) see for example "Les As de la Guerre 1939-1945" by the Service Historique de l'Armée de l'Air (Daniel PORRET & Franck THEVENET - 1993) while the number 23 was also circulating (23 black cross and 9 white cross are painted on his Tempest post-War and his DFC citations mention respectively 11 and 12 victories).
This was first challenged by "Aces High" (Chris SHORES & Clive WILLIAMS - 1994) which quoted discrepancies between the Broadhurst November 1945 document and the ORBs. It stated the confirmed victories at "11 (plus possibly 7 additional) but this remained mostly unoticed at the time.
When these conclusions were printed in France in "Les pilotes de chasse français 39-45" (Philippe LISTEMANN, Pierre-André TILLEY & Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt -1999) with a list of 12 confirmed victories, Pierre Clostermann accused Aéro Editions of defamation and won (the book was removed from sales and Aéro Editions ended up bankrupting).
The score was re-evaluated again in Avions n°227 (2019) in an article by Christophe CONY with the help of the logbooks and mention confirmation of 14 victories in RAF documents.
Another good study is "Pierre Clostermann : Journal de sa vie opérationnelle Janvier 1943 - Août 1945" (Georges-Eric COISNE - 2020).