Carroll Smith questions
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

I have some questions about top US nightfighter ace Carroll Smith.

1. Is he still alive ?
2. Until when did he command 418. NFS ?
3. In "American Nightfighter Aces of World War 2" Thomas/Thompson write that Smith has 2 P-38 kills. Didn't he score 3 P-38 kills (13Jan, 13Jan, 28Nov) ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

He died in 1994: http://valor.militarytimes.com/recip...pientid=381145

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/f...r&GRid=1189332

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

His score in the P-38 was 2/2/0; dest on Jan 13, 1944 and Nov 28, 1944; prob on Nov 26 and 28 1944. And five victories in the P-61 with Philip Porter as his radar operator. It is possible that Porter got a sixth victory in the Korean War with James Little (CBI ace) as his pilot in an F-82G, 339th F(AW)S, since Porter was the senior radar operator in the 339th at that time. But I have found no documentation of Little's radar operator that day.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Good evening RSwank & Frank Olynyk,

thanks for your posts.
Would you say that the second 13Jan kill featured in the list (page 181) provided by Alex Smart
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...73&postcount=2
is an erroneous duplication ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Here is the official list. It shows two on 13 January for Smith.

http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories...ii-by.name.pdf



The history of the 418th is here.

http://417th-nightfighters.com/wp-co...tory418NFS.pdf

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Hello Roland,
The first link is surely an improved copy of the link (original list ) given in the "Sticky" section on this forum ?
http://www.afhra.af.mil/Information/...tudies-51-100/
Or are there changes I.e, additions or deletions ?

Alex

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Alex, I am not sure if the list I posted is just a cleaned up reprinting of your list or if there are actual revisions on it. I know it seems to agree as far as the count goes (8 for Smith) as is shown on this 2011 list of aces as is shown on this link.

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineA...1/0511aces.pdf


They note that the official determinations are done by the Air Force Historical Research Agency, Maxwell AFB, Ala.

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Historical Study 85, referenced in Alex' post, was published in 1978, and covered all USAAF aerial claims by fighters in World War 2. Additional Historical Studies covered the claims in WW1, Korea and Vietnam. These four lists were later updated and combined into a single volume with alphabetical and date order listings for each conflict, and published in 1988. This version was later converted into a searchable database and loaded to the Air University website. Later the credits for the various conflicts in the 1990's were added. This website's use apparently was found to exceed the Air University's ability to support it, and was taken down, with, as far as I know, no replacement. While the website was up, corrections were made to it as additional confirmations were found which satisfied the USAFHRA criteria. I do not believe I have ever seen actual copies of HS85 or the 1988 combined version ever offered for sale on the Internet (although since I have copies I do not usually search for them).

Both lists show two victories for Carroll Smith on Jan 13, 1944, which I believe is incorrect. A copy of the mission report for Smith can be found on Maxwell microfilm reel A0801, frame 1197, and a copy of his personal combat report can be found at frame 1213. They show only a single victory. Further, the book on the 418th NFS referenced above by RSwank shows only a single victory. I will email USAFHRA with this information, and post their response when I receive it.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

in "American Nightfighter Aces of World War 2" by Thomas/Thompson Carroll Smith is cited and he talks about a kill (singular) in the early days of his career
However, curiously the book indicates 2 kills on 28Nov (!)

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Hello Michael,
He may well have refer to a single kill, which could be correct.
My reason for bringing this up following your latest post is simply that if a claim was made/confirmed by a crew both were credited. It could be that the pilot made a kill and that the Nav/Gunner also made a kill, hence two kills but each only had one.
Hope you follow my rather poor offering.
Alex

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Good afternoon Alex,

good idea but this issue is about Smith's P-38 kills.
Do you think he took Mr. Porter with him on his lap ?
;-)

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Good evening,

everywhere I read that the P-61 had a crew of 3.
Wasn't the P-61 a two-seater ???

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

P-61 had a crew of 2 or 3. Pilot and radar operator in all cases. If it retained the four gun .50 cal turret it would also carry a gunner to operate it.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Hello Frank,

thans for your answer.
It looks like the P-61 aces Carroll Smith, Paul Smith, Herman Ernst and Eugene Axtell flew without a gunner, didn't they ?

Sincerely,

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

There is an article about P-61s here:
https://www.airspacemag.com/history-...ows-180959772/

It points out that the top remote turrets were in short supply (the same turret was used on B-29s) and about half of the P-61s built just had 4 fixed forward firing guns in place of the turret. Some pilots would still take a gunner along as an extra pair of eyes, but it appears that most did not.

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Hello,

that's a very interesting article.
It mentions a grand total of 158 kills.
I suppose that includes 127,5 P-61 kills and 31 US Beaufighter kills, doesn't it ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

I have contacted USAFHRA at Maxwell AFB about Carroll Smith's January 13, 1944 victory/victories. According to their records this was documented by reference to a 5th Air Force G.O. 264. When they went to look for it, they found that their collection of 5th AF GOs skips from 260 to 270. Which means that when the original index was built they found a copy elsewhere (probably St Louis). A check of the unit history shows only a single victory (Val) on that date. If the Director and Deputy Director of USAFHRA accept this conclusion, they will change the index to show only a single victory on Jan 13, 1944.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Dear Frank,

thanks a lot for that.
A single kill on 13Jan1944 is also implied by the quoted words of Smith in OSPREY's "American Nightfighter Aces of World War 2".
Irritatingly, this very book indicates two confirmed kills for Smith on 28Nov1944.
What do you think about that ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

On Nov 28, 1944 Smith claimed a Betty probable at 0410, and a Betty destroyed at 0413. These are documented by his Individual Combat Report on NARA microfilm series M1065, reel 8 frame 25; and by his Narrative Combat Report on Maxwell microfilm A0801 frame 1655.

The unit history book, referenced above, based on A0801, claims two victories on Nov 28 in its text, but the list of victories in the back shows only one. And the actual combat reports claim only one and a probable.

I might note that this thread properly belongs in the Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Pacific, since these combats are taking place in the Netherlands East Indies and the Philippine Islands.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Good afternoon Frank,

cool.
That renders Carroll Smith and Archibald Harrington jointly the topfighter aces of the USA with 7 night kills each.
Do you know why Smith reverted to the P-38 after having scored his second kill in the P-61 ?

Have a nice day,

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Good evening,

is Philip Porter still alive ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

No, Porter died in 2001.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...TYwOS4xOC4wLjA.

Re: Carroll Smith questions
 

Thanks for the orbituary.
Have a good Thursday,
Michael