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French WW2 decimal score aces
Bonjour,
the scores of French WW2 aces are usually given with shares counted as full victories. For comparison I compiled a French ace list with shares counted as decimals. I also indicated the planes in which they scored 5 or more kills. I wish I knew if Henri Foucaud scored 5 kills in the Yak-9 and Jean Dugoujon's total is still a mystery to me. Have a nice weekend, Michael
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Good morning Gentlemen,
fron Many Souffan I learned that Foucaud scored all his kills in a Yak-9. Clostermann's score is a mess in the sources: This website says 17 but it includes 4 ground kills (3May1945) and two from his logbook =11 http://www.cieldegloire.com/004_clostermann.php This website says 22 or 33 http://frenchaces.pagesperso-orange.fr/as/m+c.html This website says 33 but it includes 6 shared 7 probables and one which is suggested by himself = 19+6sh https://www.lesasdelaluftwaffe.fr/au...i-clostermann/ This website says 19+6sh with 12+6 in the Tempest which includes 1 probable = 18+6sh http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.ph...53-clostermann According to this website http://www.pierre-clostermann.com/victoires.html the French seem so have acknowledged 33 victories (19+14sh) whereas 23 kills seem to have been acknowledged by the RAF. He seems to have conducted a lawsuit for that. I wonder if my French is sufficient to understand all that correctly. Cheers, Michael |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Michael
As far as I know, the French (when on their own) did not acknowledge any shared victories. If, let's say, five pilots shot down one aircraft each pilot received a full victory, but the unit as such only one. This creates of course a problem since French pilots fought both with the British and the Russians, each nation with a different system to recognize an aerial victory. No matter how we count, we will simply not get it right! Also don't forget, for political reasons, Charles de Gaulle needed the top ace during the war to have come from "his" side, ie Britain. As far as I am concerned, Clostermann was a very good pilot and his book is brilliant, but I would like to know more about his relationship to de Gaulle. It is no coincident that his final Tempest was dubbed Le Grand Charles.... Cheers Stig |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Hi
About Clostermann Subject VERY,VERY "DELICATE" that the score of his "victories":everything and its opposite are said!on this "famous" real score! For example,I have an established list(by a serious author) of 24 "victories" sures (18+6 shared). About your old list (2016),I noticed several missing Le Gloan:MS.406+D.520 Blanck:D.520+Spit Madon:D.520+Spit Boillot:MS.406+Spit Lefevre:Yak-1+Yak-9T etc.etc.... Michel |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Sorry for the icons
Why they appear!! michel |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Dear Michel,
I think the misses you mentioned are because I indicated only those cases when an ace achieved 5 kills (shared kills counted as decimals) in the mentioned aircraft. Would you mind posting the list of 18+6 Clostermann kills ? I suppose it consists of 7 Spitfire kills and 11+6 Tempest kills ? Have a nice afternoon, Michael |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
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They come up because you write a) : b) D together. If you click on that particular smiley, you will see what happens in your writing box. :D Cheers Stig |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
1°,27/07/43=Fw.190 S Trouville
2°,27/07/43=Fw.190 S Trouville 3°,27/08/43=Fw.190 St Pol-Mardyck 4°,15/06/44=Bf.109 St Andre de L'Eure 5°,26/06/44=Fw.190 Caen/Carpiquet 6°,29/06/44=Fw.190 N Rouen 7°,02/07/44=Fw.190 S Cabourg 8°,02/07/44=Fw.190 S Cabourg 9°,05/03/45=Bf.109 Nordhorn 10°,14/03/45=Bf.109 Hanovre 11°,28/03/45=Ju.88 (SHARED) Rheine Hopsten 12°,02/04/45=Fw.190 Aldhorn 13°,05/04/45=Ju.88 Wunstorf 14°,05/04/45=Bf.109 (SHARED) Lac Dummer 15°,05/04/45=Bf.109 (SHARED) Lac Dummer 16°,20/04/45=Ju.290 (SHARED) Skagerrac 17°,20/04/45=Fw.190 SE Hambourg 18°,20/04/45=Fw.190 SE Hambourg 19°,03/05/45=Fw.190 Kiel 20°,03/05/45=Ju.252 Grossembrode 21°,03/05/45=Do.24 Detroit Fenhmarn 22°,03/05/45=Do.24 Detroit Fenhmarn 23°,03/05/45=Bf.109 (SHARED) Grossembrode 24°,03/05/45=Fw.190(SHARED) Grossembrode As you see it,this one is different from the one in Aces High,Tempest and typhoon Story,...... Michel |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
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That's pretty much it. Closterman filled a lawsuit against a book published, I believe, in 1991. It's not clear when he went to court because the ruling dates from 2001. A copy of the ruling is at http://www.livresdeguerre.net/forum/...hp?index=37129 (this website, active 10 years ago, is far from reliable, but the copy/paste of the ruling is probably accurate). The ruling itself is kind of strange. It blames the authors of the book for not making the effort of interviewing Clostermann himself. The ruling also says Closterman is a very respectable person (which he certainly was), suggesting that's enough a ground to assume he is right in all he says. The ruling doesn't say the sources the authors use or the analysis they make is flawed in any way, except they should _also_ have interviewed Clostermann... There is some Streisand effect in going to court to start with. The book is long forgotten and seems all but impossible to find (it's not even at the BNF). It's hard to believe it had a wide distribution at the time of publication. The whole things sounds a lot like personal feud between Clostermann and one of the authors or the publisher. In all cases, the lawsuit draws attention to the reliability of Closterman ace claims, pretty much the opposite effect of what the plaintif wanted... |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Apparently NO Ju 290 recorded lost on the 20th April 1945...only recorded losses of type on the massive 2nd TAC by Shores and Thomas were on the night of 22nd April and 25th April...by Mosquitos (264 and 409 Sqdns)...so, do not know what was claimed...and no entry on the relevant ORB too regarding this claim or a possible ground victory either!
Imagine Historians being put on jail for writing and re-writing ancient History based on new archives or documents found! Anyway, his claims (as others too) can be checked with relevant documents, etc...I have tried to match some, since I read and re-read his books, but it is a hard work. Perhaps his Logbooks will be available for an accurate Historical Research, by accredited French Historians (we do have many to quote...)...maybe.... A.S.B. |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Hi all
This may help to understand some things. That's what he says in an interwiew about his victories: "When he leaves the RAF in august 1945,he claimed(HE CLAIMED) 23 vict.sures (individual or shared),BUT HE DOES NOT HAVE A RELIABLE LIST OF SUCCESSES,some of his claims having been credited differently by the RAF and FAFL." Dixit himself. Michel |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Having looked at the various kill lists for Clostermann, it is my opinion that the one presented by Shores and Williams in AH (AH) is most accurate.
It credits him with 11 confirmed kills + 7 unconfirmed, 2 confirmed probables and 3 unconfirmed, and 9 damaged. I believe confirmation is from squadron records and combat reports. The kills in these numbers include 4 later changed to OTG kills. Relating this score to the kill markings on his Tempest, you get 11+7+2+3=23 kills + 9 damaged, matching the numbers of black and white crosses. So, did Clostermann ever state what the markings on the Tempest represent? In a post on another forum relaying the contents of a letter Clostermann wrote in response to questions on his kills, I have seen it said that the black crosses represent confirmed kills and the white crosses probables and OTG kills, BUT this statement is made in brackets, indicating it is likely an addition of the poster and not stated by Clostermann himself. This may hold the key to the various kill lists. The problems I have with the statement made are - 1. that when you examine the 11 Spitfire kills which are referred to in his DFC, you can't get 11 unless you include the probables, and 2. in that case they can't also be included in the count for the white crosses, and 3. as the kill numbers given in AH include 4 later changed to OTG kills, they also can't be included in the white cross count Finally, in the post on the forum I mentioned earlier, the poster quotes Clostermann as saying - "the French Air Force - as well as the US 8th Fighter Command, considered aircraft 'probables' and destroyed 'on the ground' as victories. This may explain some of the ridiculously inflated claims we found in the press". Another reason to conclude that the 23 as presented in AH is correct. Has anyone else formed an opinion on his score? Peter |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Clostermann produced an official document giving his total score. It display 19 confirmed solo victories some probables and damaged (all are listed). The two DFC documents give each 11 and 12 victories (total 23) which are may be the 19 confirmed in the first place + 4 confirmed later (after crash site were found or things like that) or maybe includes the probables. Then, the French Air Force count the shared victories as complete victory whereas the RAF does not count them at all in general. So with 14 such victories, Clostermann tally for the Armée de l'Air is 33 (but this value should only be used to compare with tally established with the same method).
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
to respond to Peter's post. Clostermann's letter to Scale Aircraft Modelling magazine in 1982 was published on their 'Readers Letters' page..
" ..As to my claims, they never changed. They were painted on my Tempest, (see accompanying photo ***) and are substantiated by the following citations and letters. My two DFC citations, by Air Marshal Slessor and AOC 83 Group Sir Harry Broadhurst, are enough for me - "DFC 26/8/44 This officer has displayed outstanding courage and devotion to duty throughout his operational career in the course of which he has destroyed at least 11 enemy aircraft and damaged other military objectives". "Bar 28/5/45 since being awarded the DFC this officer has participated in 70 new operational missions during which he has destroyed a further 12 enemy aircraft. Throughout, Lieutenant Clostermann has displayed outstanding courage and ability, and has proved to be a source of inspiration to all". 23 black crosses and 23 confirmed by my DFC citations. I never personally asked for anything else.... " **(The photograph that Pierre sent with his letter, with him in the cockpit of 'Le Grand CharIes'~, NV724, JF.E of 3 Sqn., circa July 1945, showing the twenty-three black crosses representing his accredited confirmed 'kills', and the nine white outline only crosses for 'probables' and 'ground kills') ..NB: the aircraft referred to- 'Le Grand Charles'- is SN 222 and NOT his last JF*E, NV 724, although NV 724 featured the same 'scoreboard' |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
FalkeEins - thank you. I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with your post.
Yes, I have seen your blog regarding the 2 Tempests. My question was whether Clostermann himself explained the markings on his Tempest(s), as the comments in brackets which appear on your blog and in the post I referred to seem to originate with the blogger, not Clostermann. My opinion (and contention) is that, of the several kill lists I have seen, only that produced by Shores and Williams in AH comes close to matching the Tempest kill markings and citation information. The other lists simply don't match. Alfred - is a copy of his list available? Thanks Peter |
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From the above he did.. |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
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(The photograph that Pierre sent with his letter, with him in the cockpit of 'Le Grand CharIes'~, NV724, JF.E of 3 Sqn., circa July 1945, showing the twenty-three black crosses representing his accredited confirmed 'kills', and the nine white outline only crosses for 'probables' and 'ground kills') is obviously NOT written by Clostermann. If it is, he got his Tempest info wrong for a start .... It is information/opinion provided by a third party - or am I wrong? Yes, he did state he considers the citations for 11 and 12 kills respectively to be confirmation of his kills, but the makeup of those kills is not stated, nor is the meaning of the 9 white crosses. Not trying to be argumentative, just precise. Peter |
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Here's a reproduction of the document, this list is also found on a link provided earlier I think :
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers...-cloclo103.jpg And here's something about the top 10 French aces : https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers...frenchaces.png |
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I am attentive to the discussion and I add this:
To add a little more confusion,there is another picture of his tempest (NV724) with 21 black crosses and 7 white crosses! just after the war. I agree with Peter,the list in Ace High (Shores) is the most plausible,the report of the different ORB (274,56,3° Sqd) are reliable sources. The French with their counting system mixing victories "sures",individual,collective,probable,damaged contributed to this opacity,hence the multitude of contradictory lists.this is not the only case!! Annouce 33 homologous victories is a figure that "speaks" more. One thing to remember,my previous post #11 dixit himself. Regards michel |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
The reliable list of success is the document I provided and the 23 victories came from the DFC documents, they are more than a claim but may be still erronous.
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Thank you for the 2 lists Alfred. They are very much appreciated.
While Clostermann's list is similar to one in one of the links previously given, it is not the same. Straight away one can see the claims for 341Sq are 3 + 2 damaged on C's list, and 4 + 1 prob on the other. Unfortunately, his list doesn't really help make the picture any clearer. For the 11 kills listed for the DFC, Clostermann has 8 + 3 probables (all aerial). That includes 1 probable on 28/6/43 apparently not confirmed. As far as I can see, there is no other way to get 11 but to include the probables and unconfirmed. For the 12 kills listed for the Bar, it is less clear. He lists 11 kills and 2 probables (all aerial). Of these, 5 are unconfirmed (3+2). The Bar record also states 70 missions, while the 11+2 was achieved in 73. So how to get a total of 12? Perhaps treat the Ju252 shot down on takeoff as OTG and you get 10 kills + 2 probables. But it seems probable some of these were scored in missions 71-73. Or should the 70 mentioned just be taken as an approximation? BUT also, officially, 4 of the 11 "Bar" kills are recorded as OTG kills. So would Clostermann's list overrule the official records? When were those 4 officially listed as OTG kills? Immediately or later? There is another interesting thing - Clostermann makes no mention of the Ju290 in his list, but it is mentioned in the note at the end. How can this be? I will also point out that it seems Shores and Williams did have Clostermann's list when they reviewed the claims - they make reference to it in their notes. So they have considered all the information, applied their expertise, and come to a conclusion. In my opinion, it just so happens their conclusion also makes most sense. If someone has a better analysis, please let me know. Peter |
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When you say "unconfirmed", what's the source ?
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Hello Alfred.
I agree the notes at the end refer to shared kills. A re-read on my part was required for that to penetrate. Regarding the 'unconfirmed' status, Shores and Williams indicate they have referred to squadron records and combat reports, and the unconfirmed seem to be claims which they did not locate in either, but are present in Clostermann's personal log/record. The OTG kills are mostly from 3/5/45 and are stated to be so listed in squadron records. If they were originally recorded as aerial kills, would anyone have bothered to change the status of the claims so close to the end? Or after the end? In his book Clostermann describes shooting down the Do24s in detail, so why would the squadron's records show them as OTG kills? Regarding Clostermann's own list, Shores&W say it was prepared in November 1945 (showing 19 individual and 14 shared kills) and then signed by Broadhurst. They also say that with the shared kills, it appears Clostermann was only present and likely never fired a shot. I have no idea if these details are correct. If so, I guess it is always possible that the list was prepared with best belief but not 100% accurate being 6 months later. In any case, I still think it safe to say the 23 claimed kills include claims which some sources now say are unconfirmed and/or probables and/or OTG kills. Ignoring claims Clostermann himself records as OTG, Shores&W list differs from Clostermann's only on one point - a FW190 kill on 2/7/44. Clostermann claims 2, Shores&W has only 1. As a result, the Shores&W list has 11 confirmed, 7 unconfirmed, and 5 probables = 23. And 9 damaged. Coincidence? By design? I can't see why they would try to tailor the result. So it comes back to my question at the start - what do the crosses on his Tempest represent? In the absence of anything concrete from Clostermann on the meaning of his markings, I can only guess they are as I have presented above. Last of all, I have no idea how to reconcile a Tempest with 21 black and 7 white crosses, given there were 4 kills in the last sortie with aerial kills. His score would have jumped from 19 to 23. Michel, - do you have a date for that photo? (I guess not) Cheers Peter |
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Maybe the November document was faulty but that means that the DFC documents were faulty too (those documents are not personal logs !). But it never occured that the squadron records may be faulty ? Quote:
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
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Thank you for your interest in this Alfred.
I have no real problem with the unconfirmed kills. I guess I just mention them separately for completeness and maybe also because the official lists usually exclude unconfirmed kills. I have no idea where they get the info in the DFC/Bar documents. Is it provided by the Squadron when they put in the recommendation? Or is some poor soul in HQ admin given the task of checking all the records? Michel previously suggested at post 19 the squadron records were reliable, but I would concede they could be just as much at fault as anything else. I don't think anything can be taken as 100%. But they are the official records, so I would use them at least as a base to start from. Photo of Tempest with 21+7 attached. So, you also agree 18 kills + 5 probables + 9 damaged is the likely score on the 23+9 Tempest? Peter |
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Hi Peter
Sorry,I don't have a date:the picture is in the French Magazine "AVIONS" n°138 (sept.2004) Out of curiosity,I tried to match his claims (1°to 7°-8°) with his potential victims. Result 27/07/43= only one (I/JG2- crash Gonneville/mer or 2/JG2-crash Annebault) and maybe shared with Fl.Martel and Sgt Bruno of 341°Sqd. overclaiming of 341°Sqd=150% 27/08/43= 3/JG26 crash St Nicolas or I/JG26 crash Nieuwepoort 485°Sqd claimed also one......shared? 15/06/44=no Bf.109 lost (St-andré de l'eure) III/JG3 based there....no losses recorded. 26/06/44=no Fw.190 lost (Caen/Carpiquet) 29/06/44=no Fw.190 lost (nord rouen) 2/07/44= only one-maybe 3/JG26 (17432) Lt Nink....shared with others pilots? Michel |
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That's just a supposition, I have nothing to back this. As you say only him or someone close to him could tell. That his claims match ennemy loss is another story. It is highly likely he was a big overclaimer, but I don't know how he rank among other RAF pilots in that domain. |
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thanks a lot for your many fascinating posts about this complicated topic. I will have a lot of fun working them through and cross-checking everything. Dear Alfred Monzat: thanks for the document showing 19 Clostermann kills. I did not even know that something like this exists. Can you tell me the dates of the 14 shared kills ? Cheers, Michael |
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No but a link in one of your posts show some of them.
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Yes, it shows six half-shares in the Tempest.
Does that mean that the missing eight shared kills (all Fw190's) were scored in the Spitfire ? |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
...the new Clostermann article by Christophe Cony seems to indicate that Clostermann didn't score any shared aerial kills at all (?)
Michael |
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IMPORTANT
About French aces (not Clostermann) please email me as soon as possible at: rof700@bluewin.ch Repeat: it's important. Thanks in advance. rof120 |
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Good morning Gentlemen,
I just learned from Christophe Cony's Clostermann article that Bernard Dupérier's real name was Bernard Sternberg de Armella (see post 1). Cheers, Michael |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Good morning Gentlemen,
I've had a very good time working through Christophe Cony's excellent Pierre Clostermann article in AVIONS. It provides a vivid and detailed description of his life, many appealing photos and aircraft profiles as well as a list of 50 claims, 14 of which are confirmed destroyed in the air (all individual). The following kills from older sources were omitted, possibly because the author has found out that they are not valid: 28.03.1945 He111 DES (1/2) confirmed victory in Public Offical Record archives (Ju88?) 05.04.1944 Bf109 DES (1/2) confirmed victory in Public Offical Record archives 05.04.1944 Bf109 DES (1/2) confirmed victory in Public Offical Record archives 05.04.1945 Ju88 DES confirmed victory in Public Offical Record archives 20.04.1945 Ju290 DES (1/2) admitted as confirmed with official citation by French Air Force 03.05.1945 Ju252 DES on take off, confirmed victory in Public Offical Record archives (Ju52?) 03.05.1945 Bf109 DES (1/2) shared with John Irvin Bay Adams 03.05.1945 Bf109 DES (1/2) shared with John Irvin Bay Adams (Fw190?) no date Fw190 DES (1/2 or 1/4) no date Fw190 DES (1/2 or 1/4) no date Fw190 DES (1/2 or 1/4) no date Fw190 DES (1/2 or 1/4) no date Fw190 DES (1/2 or 1/4) no date Fw190 DES (1/2 or 1/4) no date Fw190 DES (1/2 or 1/4) no date Fw190 DES (1/2 or 1/4) Cheers, Michael |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Pierre Le Gloan is unique in having become a full ace on two opposing sides of a war, respectively, isn't he ?
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
No ; check Emile "Christian" LEBLANC, Robert HUVET, Michel MADON, Georges PISSOTTE, Marcel ROUQUETTE, Marcel STEUNOU, Georges BLANK etc....
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
What I wanted to say was that Pierre Le Gloan scored 5 full kills for one side and then 5 full kills for the other side.
None of the guys you mentioned scored 5 Vichy kills when shared kills are counted as decimals. However Le Gloan is not unique anyway because Constantin Rosariu and Constantin Cantacuzino scored five times before and after changing sides. http://www.igleize.fr/aces/ww2roma.htm Le Gloan died when he tried an emergency landing without dropping his belly tank. Is it possible to assume if the failed release of it was due to a technical error or if he simply forgot it ? |
Re: French WW2 decimal score aces
Did any Frenchman ever surpass the two kills the Caudron C.714 that the Polish pilots Jerzy Czerniak, Tadeusz Czerwinski & Aleksy Zukowski scored each ?
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