Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Hola Folks,
last year in September I visit the IPMS Sweden Nationals. Then they asked me to give a presentation about RLM-colours. I asked them I they want to hear something about my latest discoveries. Since then I was asked several times to give more information regarding RLM 83. Here we go:
Test order E2-45/31

(Development and verification of camouflage for the Mediterranean Sea)

• -Report August 1943:
  Alongside RLM 73 a „darkblue“ colour will be use. Flighttest in the near future.
• Report September 1943:
  Using the camouflage pattern „Land“ and „Sea“ with RLM 73 and the darkblue colour 300/III suggested for introduction.
• Report November 1943:
  Closed with report dated 10. November 1943. Colour RLM 83 „DARKBLUE“ with RLM 72 for Sea- and RLM 70 for landaircraft suggested for introduction.
• Sammelmitteilung 2, dated 15. August 1944:
  …on the dark shades RLM 72, 73, 75, 81, 82, 83 …. (no colour was stated)

These original documentation of the introduction of the new colour leads to the conclusion that we have to expect a lot of "darkblue" Luftwaffe aircraft in the Mediterranean theater.
Much more important for all those fighter-fans: This "darkgreen", formerly known as RLM 83, is nothing more, nothing less than a darkgreen variation of RLM 81.
Photos of my finished Ju 88:
http://www.scalemates.com/whatsnew.php

Best Regards from Germany
Michael Ullmann

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Thank you Michael for sharing this information. :)

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Michael, I'm sorry if I've missed some information from you regarding this, but does your research over the years lead you to believe that this finish was applied in the field, ie have dark blue finished aircraft relics been found or are we looking at an interesting archive of proposals which may never have received a physical application?
Steve.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Hello Michael,

And welcome as new member!

You will appreciate that TOCH didn't lost time to comment your discovery:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ghlight=RLM+83
As soon as September 2012 ... :)

And that ought to be an answer to our good friend JCM http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ghlight=RLM+83
... Who always fought against that RLM 83 Dark green theory! :D

@Steve: Element of answers in the first link I'm providing.

Best regards, Franck.

PS: Without using the search capacity you always have a "similar threads" panel at the very bottom of this page (for example).

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Thanks Franck, I was not aware of the earlier discussion on this forum though I had seen the discussion on clubhyper. I'm wondering where this places the discussion on this thread on Finescale Modeler then, where the member, snapdragonxxx, had access to annotated colour chips in the Blohm & Voss archives which from the way I read it, identified 3 versions of a colour called RLM83. From reading the discussion around this (TOCH) thread & the earlier one linked to, there would appear to be no documentary evidence for a dark green RLM83 or am I missing something again? :confused:
Steve.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Steve,

To make short ... ask JCM!
And I think that Michael is very close when he is writing "This "darkgreen", formerly known as RLM 83, is nothing more, nothing less than a darkgreen variation of RLM 81."
It looks like a long shot without end and there will be "blood and tears" to come; this is the only point you can be sure until next "discovery".

Last just a question to answer to yours: Why RLM 83 chips in B&V factory archiv????


Regards, Franck.

PS: Sorry I forgot one point: You can go on LEMB forum too where the same subject has been discussed in a more "blood & tears" way. But, who knows, this thread is not finished yet :)

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

I don't know the answer to that, I'll PM snapdragon & try to get some clarification, it may well be I have misunderstood his introduction to the topic.
Steve.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

The most interesting part about this to me is that the Dark Green was RLM81 as well because as a consequence, the camouflage combination of dark green and medium brown must have been what? 81/81? Or was perhaps 82 available in both green and brown, just like 81?

That idea has been nagging me since you told us in Gothenburg that tests for 81 and 82 had begun with two shades of green and later also brown-tinted versions of these colors.

Cheers / Anders

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Without knowing the guy who posted that or knowing more about his research it's hard to say much but that atlas of colors just seems too good to be true. I mean a color atlas with both old, out of production paint like the 6x range along with the latest colors, their variations and even fieldmixes, it doesn't seem even remotely likely although it would be fantastic if it was true. To have army and naval colors in the same atlas seems even stranger. /Anders

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

It has been pointed out on Britmodeller that in Merrick vol.1, pps89-91 there is discussion of Dunkel Blue Ju88s of KG54 operating in the Med, one of which landed by mistake in Switzerland & was reported on in depth. The colour being described as dark blue, in between RLM 24 & the later deeper 78, pretty much as Michael has painted his model Ju88 ( very nice too Michael) I'll be keen to find out more.
Steve.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

All right, if this is dark blue or deep blue or other variant of blue, why in first post is in bold noted

Dark green variation of brown green? Anyway nice kit build :)

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Wasn't there a comparison years ago to a set of Blohm & Voss paint chips that clearly showed RLM 83 as dark green?

Then again the names were invented by the aircraft manufacturers who often called the same colour different things. The standards changed in late 44 through 1945 problems are obvious, with the lack of needed funds and materials so did the changes in paints occur, take for example RLM 76 which changed from a sky-blue to tints of white grey, white-blue, shades of green-blue, grey-blue, etc., etc.

As far as the dark blue JU88 landing in Sweden, it could very well be 24. Depends how worn the paint was, how thick, primers used underneath if any, sun bleached, lots of factors influencing the description. But being a previous unknown colour, perhaps, but I doubt it.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Interesting!
I didn't understand that sentence like that!
It is said: A dark green variation of RLM 81 was formerly "known" - that is named - RLM 83. And named from what? This is exactly why JCM did ask "show me the documentation"; and no one answered since then.

Michael is not writing that his RLM 83 Dark blue was a dark green variation of Brown green, does he?

Regards, Franck.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

For me JCM is the leader in the field ;)

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

all,
thanks for all of your replies. Interesting to read all these information. Espacialy to read that some one dig out colour charts from Blowm & Voss. I hope we will soon see scans of this documents. I have scans of my documents.
For me as a German (I am no English native) it is sometimes hard to describe the sense what I would like to say. Let me point out a few things for clarivikation
- RLM 83 was Darkblue
- The formerly described "Darkgreen" RLM 83 is a darkgreen RLM 81 variation
- Darkgreen RLM 83 never exist (or have anyone an original surface protection list of a Luftwaffe aircraft that decribed that?)
- The solution for all these variation of RLM 81 and 82 is that RLM couldn't provided colour chips to their quality assurance. Therefore the right colour of the paint was never quality controled (Check Sammelmitteilung 1, my second edition Hikoki, page 343 "camouflage for Gliders", second row, second sentence, beginning with: Delivery of colur charts .....). This is a fact allways completly overseen in all the discussion over the years.

Looking forward to read your replies
Best Regards from Germany

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

I would feel a whole lot happier about the FSM thread if it didn't contain statements like "I came across a total goldmine in a dusty archive" and "I was lucky enough to find a ... Panther 'G' tank ... while on holiday and swimming in a river."

That's one hell of a lot of luck but precious few specifics. What's more, snapdragonxxx elaborates on the chaos of the last weeks of the war but asks us to accept that in the midst of that someone nevertheless managed to compile a tri-service paint chart including unit-level variants. And then — more luck — a model paint company is found to have achieved 99.9% accuracy without benefit of the "goldmine."

It will be great if this document exists and is everything snapdragonxxx says but its credibility would be helped enormously by the provision of proper references that anyone could cross-check. That would be good history and good science. All we have at present is a good story.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

It's great that you Michael have signed on here to answer our questions, I really appreciate it! Now for a couple of questions. First off, you wrote in Crandalls book on the Fw190D that 81, 82, and well, green 81, was equal to RAL 8019, 6003 and 6006, I always assumed that these shades would be widely known by the manufacturers so that such accuracy issues would be avoided?

Also, the brown found on surviving aircraft like the 109 in the Australian war memorial museum for example is quite far from 8019 but the samples found on pieces from other aircraft seems to match each other quite well suggesting to me that it was quite a reliable color, just like RLM 82.

Again, as you mentioned that brown-tinted versions of 81 and 82 were tested in 1943(?) couldn't it be that both 81 and 82 were actually issued in green and brown?

For camouflage purposes the contrast between colors was most important but the contrast between the medium brown color and 82 would have been really low. And again, if the dark green, and medium brown were both 81, that means a lot of aircraft were painted in 81/81, that just seems so strange to me.

I have a feeling we are missing a part of the puzzle here! :)

Cheers / Anders

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Hola,
there no missing part of the puzzle.

First, when I wrote the text for Jerry's book I describe the knowledge base then. Today the text must be updated with my latest research results. Text in a book could only be a snap-shoot of the knowledge then.

And again you must keep in mind that the RLM released a ,today undiscovered (Keep in mind the also today undiscovered "Tarnatlas" published in 1944 and mentioned in Sammelmitteilung 2), regulation that old stock of paint must used up before the new should be used. If you have uneven stocks of old and new paint, you must use the old colour with the new one. I am pretty sure this leads to RLM 70 or 74/82 and RLM 81/71 or 75 painted aircrafts. And the RLM 81 or 70/75 combination leads to the formerly known "RLM 83 darkgreen/75" combination.

Best Regards

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Just to add to the mystery: Michael, did you had the information of Tomas Poruba and the late Eric Larger concerning the late war paints? See http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2...w-discoveries/

Always interested in your study... Remember Forshungsanstalt Amsterdam...

Very best regards,

Philippe

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

I wouldn't say it adds to the mystery, on the contrary it supports the idea of a dark green version of RLM81 as put forward by Mr Ullmann.

/Anders

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Hallo!

Of the dark blue colour. In Hannu Valtonen's book Lapin lentokonehylyt there is one interesting case: Me 110 F-2 WNr. 5096 which crash landed at Kongsfjord coast, Norway 23th June, 1943. Unit was 13.(Z)/JG 5 and code possibly 1B+DX.

In the (Finnish) text Valtonen quotes the director of Flyhistorisk Museum Sola mr. Rossavik who confirms that there was dark blue paint on the wreck parts, but painted over with lighter blue.

It seems that there has been article about the wreck in Flugzeug Nr. 3/1985.

It should be possible to research the wreck at Sola museum? I understand that left wing should be remaining. The accident is a bit early for the RLM 83 tests but if indeed dark blue has been used on the wreck it might be of interest for a researcher? At least if the colour has survived since the recovery.


Cheers,
Kari



(WNr 5096 case: Aircraft wrecks of Lappland, ISBN 951-95688-3-2, p. 218-219 and footnotes at p. 227)

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Thank You Michael,

You're the best! Where did you get the Blue tone (hue) to paint your model?
Did you find a factory chip too? An educated guess? Why not darker?

Regards, Franck.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Dear All,

I am way out of my comfort zone by commenting here, as Luftwaffe colors are not my expertise - nor interest - although I have read with interest the give and take here on TOCH! on the subject.

The one thing I can offer is a caution when documents deal with proposals, as compared to orders/accomplished facts. I note the use of the word "suggested" twice in the test orders quoted by Michael. I've read enough documents on the Me 262 to know that something suggested, or even given as an order to do at a meeting, may not have actually subsequently happened. What is needed in these cases is corroboration that the actions proposed or ordered were actually carried out.

Regards,
Richard

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Amen!, Richard!

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Me110 F2 LN + DR in storage at Sola Aviation museum. The blue on the ving underside is faded, but the blue on nose is dark. It seems that wing undersides are painted to look like the skies in the norwegian summer up north ( RLM02 clouds on blue skye). The wite is snow camo.
We have also a B&W 138 float maybe with 83 on. http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com...Bv138float.jpg

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

To take this discussion back just a bit. I have received a response from snapdragonxxx to a couple of queries I made in a PM on FSM. I'll wait for his OK before I put this information on here, I've suggested that he joins the TOCH community, but he did say, in response to Francks query I have quoted, that B & V did of course build sea planes & he suspected the land plane colour chips came with the rest. I would add to that B & V did build several prototypes at various stages of the war namely the Bv141 & the Bv155 high altitude development of the Me109H which would have made this colour info pertinent to what they were doing. The previous post to this with the link to the picture of the Bv138 float provides a glimpse of a colour that is very tempting to call a deep blue. Could this be RLM83 blau?
Steve.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Very interesting material in Sola, why this way not mention before? Bf 110 look like have desert sky blue color.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

More blue tones
http://www.flickr.com/photos/108070235@N05/11189973305/ He115 Ju 52 float

http://www.flickr.com/photos/108070235@N05/10914250083/ G2 covling

http://www.flickr.com/photos/108070235@N05/10786348453/ The B&W 138 float ( better pictures)

The tail plane on our G1 project was also in a deep blue color when it arrive. We have only one bad picture of it befor it was refurished.

If you dont want to plug trou 700 + pict use the "sets"

Ernst

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Looks like variations if RLM 24 Dunkelblau to me.
As far as RLM 83 is concerned, its just a variation
Of dark green. No mystery i think.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Just to ad to explanation of blue color where it was previously unexpected - use of RLM 24 on Ju 188 in mid 1944 quoted by Nick Beale.
http://www.ghostbombers.com/markings/misc2.html

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Hello,
I know, this is an old discussion but I recently find this:
http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...177/index.html
It is about Johann Dreher's crash site while flying a Ju-88G,Werke/Nr.6215868(a typo?, probably 621586)-Other sources give as W/Nr 620028.As the downed plane is described in detail,(even both engines W/Nr. is given)one unusual thing captured my attention, the color description: Markings: D5 (small) + AX (both black). Undersurface light blue, mottled with white, continuing up the sides of fuselage and fin. Upper surfaces dark blue mottled with grey and white.
It seems that this plane was used somewhere in Mediterranian theatre an then rebuild in a night fighter G-variant as the tail was painted in light blue as the undersides and sides.The grey mottling applied only over dark blue and the overall white mottling sugest this too.Maybe the W/nr.bring some light?
It is obvious that if R.L.M. described RLM 83 as Dark Blue, this was Dark Blue and not
Dark Green as I saw that many still believe that it was.And it couldn't be a typo...
You cannot do such a mistakes in the Army-Yes, it is not a mystery.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

"It seems that this plane was used somewhere in Mediterranian theatre an then rebuild in a night fighter G-variant as the tail was painted in light blue as the undersides and sides.The grey mottling applied only over dark blue and the overall white mottling sugest this too.Maybe the W/nr.bring some light?"

With due respect, this is pure fiction or speculation. Plane was most probably a regular Ju 88 G-6 621586, that type never were in Med area, as area had been lost before its build time (November 1944) - And NO KNOWN CASES of any REBUILD from OLDER VERSION to Ju 88 G Night Fighter - but it may have had odd salvaged parts -That is quite different altogeather.
Ju 88 G had tail group of Ju 188, and had broader 188 horizontal tailplane than A-4 (but they had basic A-4 wings, but with broader Ailerons - and probably the proposed simplified S-3 / S-5 wings, as no Dive Brakes needed or Dive Bombing).

Using Light-Blue (stocks of this existed at ATG thrughout Ju 188 production) and Dark Blue and mottling that with two other (Lighter) may have been just a case of the available paint. Note this was a plane from 12. Staffeln and at the time (winter 1945) trainers were had hit too, and camo was needed as more and more time was spent NOT flying.

If you hear sound of Horses coming, say Horses coming, not Zebras. Please.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Yes, indeed it was only a speculation.I am not a Ju-88 expert but it was common in the Late Luftwaffe such rebuildings(see FW190 A into FW-190D).On the other hand, I was at the beginning suspicious about the accuracy of description, but after I read all the descriptions of the planes downed over England, this a/c was the only one with this unusual color.All the other colors were the standard RLM Farben used then, well described in reports.
However, two things caught my attention: the greenish-blue(so-called many years ago RLM 84, similar to the British duck egg blue)was present on German bombers and intruders early 1944, maybe late '43.
But as a He-219 expert, for me, a revelation was that all the bombers and night intruders over England late 1943 early-mid 1944 described at this site were painted in black, underside.
Almost certainly this indicates that this color was used only over the territories dominated by RAF to camouflage Luftwaffe intruders into RAF night fighters.
Applied this to He-219, R.Francis Fergusson's (I am very impressed with his work-The best book about He-219) theory- about that this color was applied over a certain A-2 290 Wk.Nr. batch - fail.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

As the downed plane is described in detail … Undersurface light blue, mottled with white, continuing up the sides of fuselage and fin. Upper surfaces dark blue mottled with grey and white.

There are so many different words used in these reports to describe Luftwaffe colours that it is hard to believe that investigators were using a standard reference (unfortunately!). It seems each man was free to use his imagination in naming the colours and leaves us trying to guess what they meant.

Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue
 

Hello Michael.
This is exciting news, and your continued interest in researching the topic is one reason why you are respected in this historical community. Like the post previous to mine I am interested in the color chips marked 83 found at Blohm & Voss. Do you have an explanation for these, or is the existence of the color chips a misunderstanding? On another note of interest to you I found something in my research that I would like for you to see as it pertains to your research. It would be wise to respond to me about this in private for your benefit. James V. Crow had an E mail address for you, but it is not working so I have to ask you here on the forum. Sorry. I am busy but will look for your reply so I wont make you wait.
Sincerely,
Bryan.