Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

The attached pics plus some more can be found here: www.pegasusarchive.org/varsity/frames.htm

These two Fw 190 F-9s with flame dampers (440382 "10" and ?????? "11") are already known, but can someone tell me anything about the identity of Fw 190 "KT+UO"? I can't find this Stammkennzeichen block in my references.

Also: What are the installations on the wing leading edges of the attached Bf 109? Cameras?

Cheers,
Christian

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Hello Christian,

Wonderful find! Here is the first photo - expired eBay auction, October 2011 - we already got!

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Thank you Christian, there is also a Ju 88 and Me 262 on the same website all found by British Paratroops
.

Regards
Chris

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Same source:
Then... I believe - we already talked about it times ago - it's one of the first MG108 trials for future Bf109K-6.
Look at K-6 mock-up photo, look at the leading edge and look at the same leading edge curves (yellow arrows) on actual picture ..

StKz ??+EM or ??+LM.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Sorry Franck, but I don't think those are MK 108 structures, or for any other weapon.

IMHO, the "mouth" of the structure is far too smooth and devoid of any visible support to receive a bolted-on part to let us think that a barrel and its cap could be placed there.

Also, the shape of the structure extends also above the wing, whereas the mock-up of the MK 108 nacelle is protuding only below the wing.

Last but not least, the whole frontal part of the mock-up seems to me a lot rounder.

This for why it doesn't seems a weapon to me; to determine what it could be it's all another matter... my wild guess is that those could be aerodinamic enclosures for photo or cine cameras.

Always IMHO, of course.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

As far as I can see this is definitely not a Bf109K-6 but very likely a G-6. There seem to be a Stammkenzeichen applied xx+EM or LM visible. This would be likely for a weapon test bed aircraft. It could be a trail for an integration of a Bordrakete BR into the wing structure in order to reduce the drag from external racks for e.g. BR21.

Is there an indication for the location where this photo has been taken?

Martin

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Dear Ferdinando,

These are your thoughts. Technical details between this and that aren't that important when we don't know what's the matter.

Can be more rounded, can be less rounded as well. What I said is the gun tubes have been removed.

Place seems to be Luneburg which is very close to weapon test plane at E-Stelle Travemünde.
Last known cameras to be put on Bf109G and K-4 were BSK 16 (or something like that) And fairings were quite different than what we are discovering down there.

Best and friendly regards, Franck.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

@Martin: For this exact photo a location is not given, but many other airfield photos from this website (i.e. the 6th Airborne Divison) were taken at Lüneburg. This must not mean anything, though, as the 6th Airborne passed through the whole of northern and northwestern Germany...

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

No one said it was a K-6.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Under the photo it is writen "Probably taken at Luneberg Heath, Germany, late April 1945".

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Chris, where is the website with the Me 262?

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Dear Dan,

The website given at the start is correct. Look under photo gallery. I then checked what the webmaster had to say about his sources and he gave a list of books and said he scanned the photos from them.

Regards,
Richard

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Hello Dan,

This is the Me 262 photo said to have been taken at Luneberg Heath!
I let you judge ...
http://www.pegasusarchive.org/varsit...Pic_Jones7.htm

Regards, Franck.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

The flag between the Me 262s is a dead giveaway. It's Fassberg.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

I was going to say the Fw.190 #10 looked familiar; and was the focal point of many RCAF types. And the Me.-262s are most likely the Fassberg Five. Interesting to see the JG-7 badge on the Me.262.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Exactly!
I suppose those veterans did remember the surrender at Luneburger Heide when the planes where at Fassberg 34,7km southern ... Not a clue for that Bf109 then... Pity!

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Ferdinando,
I don't know enough about Bf109K-6's to agree or disagree with you on your overall conclusion....except that the wing-only photo is probably placed on the test-rig upside down - so the wheel well is on the top. So the cannon or camera or whatever mounting, does protrude below the wing on an installed aircraft.

Regards,
...geoff

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

I'd also add that it is most unlikely to be an internal mounting for a rocket. Think for a moment about the rocket's exhaust.

As we know that Messerschmitt was intending an internal wing mounting for the cannon, then it will have been tried on an experimental aircraft before going into production, and the installation here appears to very close indeed to the other test example. Minor differences are only to be expected at this development stage.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Hello Graham,

Maybe you've read that comment "elsewhere" ... :) Doesn't matter anyway.
Effectively. But not only the exhaust .. The whole wing structure too should have been affected (Main spare first)

I'm not preoccupated by the differences between what is said to be the K-6 wing mock-up and that machine's photo since "minor différences are only to be expected at this development stage". This does make sense.
Note the wings have large G-10/K-4 wheel fairing on top as pointed by Goran times ago.

Last, it's just a suggestion not a "documented proof", indeed.
But with these MG108 pictures (two in fact) mock-up I think this is the best I can think about ... Until further notice/news.

Concerning cameras I see no reason to have developped such things when BSK16 was already available .. And for which purpose? Luftwaffe has always been looking for much more efficient guns to fight against the bombers .. And even against Spitfire since the beginning.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Some will remember we had an eBay photo discussed in October 2010 at LEMB here. The earlier eBay photo was also posted in post #2 in this thread by Franck.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Geoff, just to be precise, I know that photo of the 30mm cannon "blended gondola" mock-up since it appeared fifteen years ago in the fantastic Tomas Poruba's work on the Bf 109K-4 C&M, and yes, I noticed it was upside down... my comment was relative to the fact that "that" mock-up appears to protude only below the wing, whereas the structure on the modified G-6 is clearly extending also above the wing leading edge.

That such structure could be a variation to the one shown by Poruba's photo is certainly possible, but, beyond apparent logic, I still feel that it could house something else. Silly me, of course...

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Dear Ferdinando,

Not "silly you" indeed.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Ferdinando,

Thank you - I now understand the meaning your sentence with great clarity. However, would you care to share your thoughts on why you feel the more recent "modified G-6" photos aren't a variation of the theme - as you say "... is certainly possible, but, beyond apparent logic...."

I don't have Tomas Poruba's work on the K-4. My own passing interest is in the Bf109B, C and D versions. What I do understand is that there is still much discussion on exactly how many K-6's were actually produced and used. There is also some comment on some front-line units removing the two wing mounted cannons to save weight.

I don't question your knowledge. I'm just hoping to learn and understand why you feel the more recent photos may not be cannon mounts?

Regards,
...geoff

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

I can't help but wonder if this mystery Gustav is the same machine illustrated in Green's "Warplanes" in which we see it similarily armed with MK 108s but housed in underwing gondolas? Unfortunately, we lack the complete stkz and werknummer for Green's photo but have to make do with only fragments of the aircraft's stkz. To me, these two letters appear to be PH, RH or RU as these are known prefixes for the G-6.

However, in our mystery Gustav photos, I believe the last two letters besides possibly being EM, LM, EH could also be LH. In checking further, the PH prefix is unlikely since it only shows up on PH+XA to XZ, whereas the prefix RH might work since RH+LH, W.Nr. 15886, was a G-6 from this period and, the same is true for the RU prefix since RU+EH, W.Nr. 162538, was also a G-6 from this same time period.

Unfortunately, my files do not allow further possibilities. Perhaps other readers have more information?

And yes, I do too believe our mystery Gustav was, or was intended, to have wing mounted MK 108s.

Hal

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

The existence, let alone the production of other K sub-series other than the K-4 is one of the myths that I read and heard since I was a boy (and that's long time ago, believe me...).

As a matter of fact, apart from one or two prototypes or test-beds (the wooden mock-up for the proposed in-wing installation of the 30mm cannon to be used on the K-6 falls into this category), as far as we know today the K-4 was the only Kurfürst in town.

Even the myth of the two K-14s which were said to have been operational with II./JG 52 has not been proven at all and we have only evidence of K-4 W.Nr. block production series and nothing else.

This said, I cannot prove in any way that those wing structures were not further modified experimental mounts to house MK 108 cannons, I only have a gut feeling that they were for something else, and in over 35 years or research I have learned not to plainly believe, but at least to respect my own gut...

Am I wrong? Maybe, it would not be the first time, but I cannot discard the idea that there could have been a different use to that structures. I have at first theorized cine-cameras, but it seems that the ones Luftwaffe used were ok, so why try new mounts or new cameras? (BTW, the Germans were always improving their stuff, no matter how good it was, so this objection sounds a bit weak to me, but let's accept it).

At any rate, just for the sake of discussion, I simply put forward my opinion, not pretending in any way to be right or to behold the truth.

After all, if we all should always think the same and agree, it would be a boring world, wouldn't it?

P.S. FWIW, I have found online a photo of a what-if model of a K-6 with the wing-blended 30 mm cannon modeled according to what is visible in the mock-up photo (here reversed to ease viewing) and comparing these images with the photo of our "strange" test-bed G-6... I still think that the latter is very different.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Ferdinando,

Thank you. Discussion is always welcome.....sometimes when it's around a table in a bar/pub with a few drinks and a lot of arm waving.....it even makes more sense.

Regards,
...geoff

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Well, it's in the same location as the mock-up so who knows, but more to the point, why on a G-6?

Maybe they were playing with an improved, slim version of the Mk-108?

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

KT+UO has an "42" (yellow?) on the engine.
h.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

I could be wrong but this 109G probably had an RZ-65 rakete armement for me... With exhaust on upper wing side...

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Like that?

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/arch...richt/001b.jpg

I don't know why one want absolutely put that experiment "through" the wings ....

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Even the huge "oval" front hole, would not quite make sense to me...

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Hi Ferdinando,

Yes a agree with you, looks slightly too oval but probably more than it actually was cause of optical illusion 1/ because we look at it from the side and 2/ because of the strong vertical shadow.

So I still believe that it could be RZ-65 or RZ-73 (the one from the bachem Natter) rakete trial.

here is how it looks inside the wing from a Fw190A-3, exhaust openings on the lower wing side are actually very hard to see.

Olivier

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Olivier, surely I'm stubborn more than enough, but it looks still too oval to me, no optical illusions IMHO...

Also, if they managed to blend completely the structure in the Fw 190 wing, I wonder why it should have been needed such a huge one for the Bf 109 wing, no matter how much it was thinner...

Lot of questions and no easy answers, I know.

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

Size look the same as for the 109F (see previous post from ouidjat) for me and it is probably because they doesn't want to touch the wing leading edge for structural reason that they need to go under the wing. (exhaust is under the wing not on the upper side as I previously thought )

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

If you look closely you will see a screw on the bottom to fix the gun, when there is three on the K-6 mock-up but the idea is the same.
So this + the same oval opening, ok it's a 30mm test bed... Forget about the RZ-65

Regards, Olivier

Re: Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers
 

A very interesting picture. The elongated front opening is possibly to accomodate the movement of the MK108 barrel during installation and removal of the gun. It seems that the gun fitted in front of the mainspar and would need to tip acutely down at the rear to fit or remove. Also, close inspection of the picture shows that the fairing under the wing has a "flat-bottomed" profile that would be required to fit the profile of the MK108.
Just my thoughts.