Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Good evening,

the other day I read that Werner Baumbach sank at least 300.000 tons of shipping. Is it known how many ships he has sunk ?

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

I own a copy of his book, "Broken Swastika." I just thumbed through it to see if he mentions his combat record and he does not.

Here are his victory markings, (date unknown) which will get you started.

Bronc

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Michael and Bronc,
The photographs show the plane flown by Hptm Helmuth Orlowski.
See here: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=44084
Cheers, Simon

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Well, laugh out loud...

Thank you, Simon.

All of the attached images, including the model box art says this aircraft was flown by Werner Baumbach, I/Kampfgeschwader 30 'Alder Geschwader'!!!

So where are the photos of Baumbach's aircraft?? (Something is amiss.)

Bronc

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Somewhere I agree with Bronc

This is said with my pants a bit around my knees...
I know frightfully little about the Lw recce units!:o

If Helmuth Orlowski was such a good 'vessel destroyer' why was he not transferred to a bomber unit? I cannot find him listed as a KG pilot receiving the RK. I suppose in Luftwaffe anything was possible, but were there anyone else in the Aufkl units who laid claim to some 15 vessels?

According to Ed this is a mod Ju 88 A to D. Did the Aufkl units seek out surface vessels in their D-models loaded with bombs and actively tried to sink these vessels? Maybe they did, but then I have missed something and (as a second thought) why should that have been their primary job? Somehow I cannot visualise a recce pilot overstep his 'job' boundary over and over again to claim 15 vessels and get away with it.

I have no idea what it took to rebuild an A model to a D and the detailed circumstances, but is it possible the paintings on the tail is a remnant from a previous life and in fact has nothing to do with Orlowski?

Am I and Bronc the only ones who feel a bit uncomfortable with this situation?

Those who know more, could they use small calibre flak please and not 88 mm... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Hi Stig,

Luftwaffe reconnaissance pilots regularly carried out anti-shipping attacks, at least in the early war period, so it was not overstepping any boundaries to do so. A few examples from February 1941:

07.02.41: A.Gr. 22 attacked a Handelsschiff with two SC 250 bombs.
11.02.41: 1.(F)/121 attacked two vessels in the Mediterranean
13.02.41: 3.(F)/22 attacked an English submarine
14.02.41: 1.(F)/120 attacked a 600 ton vessel
26.02.41: 3.(F)/22 attacked a 3,000 ton vessel in Moray Firth
27.02.41: 1.(F)/120 attacked a 4,000 ton vessel north of Aberdeen
etc. etc.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Thanks Andrew

I didn't know that. After all it must have interfered with their main job and in my view also compromised it. Presumably these attacks were a kind of
'opportunity knocks' moments, or was there possibly a pattern?

When you say regularly should that be interpreted as if these units in fact had a dual mission role from the outset? In my mind that would make their missions very complex and not very useful. To me, basically what you are saying is that Luftwaffe then considered their anti-shipping units to be inadequate and they had to ask recce units to step in and help out.

Sorry if I am straying from the main topic here but if these vessel victories were by an individual who obviously stayed within the reconnaissance field during his career we then seems to have that same man outshining his colleagues dedicated to the anti-shipping role.

Are more recce pilots known to have scored in such missions or was Orlowski a 'one man wonder'?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Handelsschiff = merchant ship, if anyone was wondering.

Stig: Just a matter of making the most of available assets, I would think. Someone had to decide to send the aircraft out with bombs on board, so such armed reconnaissances must have been planned.

In the Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre report "The History of FAG 122 in the Mediterranean" there is reference to Ju 88s of the unit escorting convoys with 2 x 250 kg bombs for use against submarines wit one confrmed sinking on 30 March 1943 and another (unconfirmed) on 29 April. I can't find a British submarine loss on either date, nor any for March/april 1943 in the Med attributed to air attack.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

We know that the Germans did not have "adequate" anti-shipping forces from the start of the war, and never did. Those they did form during the war seem (open to correction) to have been mainly dedicated shipping strike units. I wonder if we are just seeing a difference in emphasis here: that Germans always considered maritime reconnaissance just as part of the job of a reconnaissance unit. On the other side, the RAF did not have dedicated maritime recce-only units either. Such units as they did have went out with bombs to attack targets of opportunity, and this is just what we see happening here.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Hi Nick

does that report cover 1941/42?

All the best

Andreas

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

While I also would like to see Baumbach's aircraft Bronc I still can't let the general topic go.

First off all I don't think we should approach Luftwaffe by looking at how RAF did it, except from perhaps a very general view.

Secondly we need to look at the 'happy' years as it is sometimes called from a German point of view, and not the defensive years. During 1940-41 and possibly a large part of 1942 as well, I think the Germans (read Luftwaffe and not Navy) were quite satisfied with how their ocean warfare was going. I don't agree with them feeling they had insufficient anti-shipping forces. If the existing Luftwaffe units felt anything it must have been they had not quite the right tools for doing a 100% adequate job. But they were quite good at adapting their aircraft to perform outside the original design parameters.

So again I don't understand the wisdom of using long range (rebuilt) Ju 88 D for anti shipping purposes. Cameras are heavy enough and on top having bombs onboard every mission to 'just-in-case-we-see-some vessels-let's-bomb-them' would inevitable deplore them of well needed range as well.
Wasn't the whole wisdom with the D-model to use the bomb bay for fuel?

I tried to find more info on Orlowski but can't find much on the 'net'. So far no one has answered the question, did Orlowski score against those 15 vessels shown on the fin of his Ju 88 D? Orlowski flew reportedly more than 1000 missions, which in itself would entitle him to the RK. If he had scored against 15 vessels as well, I am surprised he did not get a higher award and indeed was transferred to a dedicated anti-shipping unit.
My belief is, until someone can proof otherwise, that the vessels we see on the fin of the particular aircraft under discussion was a remnant from its 'A-period'. Since I don't have files showing 'ship-aces' I have no idea if 15 vessels in fact was something many pilots claimed or if they must belong to a very good one. My feeling is the latter. Baumbach's? No idea....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

The best German book on bomber aces "Das waren die deutschen Kampfflieger-Asse 1939-1945" by Georg Brütting features but one Baumbach photo with a Ju 88 in the background without visible tailplane.
It says "...when Baumbach had sunk 300.000 tons of shipping, he received the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords as 16th soldier of the Wehrmacht on 18Aug1942..."
However it does not specify the number of sunk vessels.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Like with most LW flying units and pilots, little is known or has been published about 1.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 120 to this day.

The Ju 88D-1 WNr. 1067 A6+HH had for many years been believed to be the machine of Werner Baumbach, although he flew with KG 30 whose unit code was ‘4D’. A Staffel member from 1.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 120 insists that this was the ‘regular’ aircraft of Stkp. u. Hptm. Helmuth Orlowski (RK 19-Sep-43), and his observer, Oblt. Fritz Heidenreich (RK 3-Jun-41). The scoreboard’s painter was named Klinkohr and it is assumed that the machine was flown by several crews, the tally representing the successes achieved by the aircraft rather than one individual. Note that the latest ‘kill’ is dated 31-Oct-41. Presumably the photos of this machine were taken at Stavanger-Sola on or shortly after this date. This machine was destroyed during an RAF bombing raid at Stavenger-Forus on 7-Jan-42. Orlowski would later lead Aufkl.Gr. 122. He and his crew were reported as MIA on 8-Nov-43 after being shot down by enemy fighters NE of Pescara, Italy. Major Orlowski was flying a Ju 88D-1 WNr. 430 593 4U+UH at the time. Hptm. Heidenreich was reported MIA on 30-May-44 in Ju 188F-1 WNr. 280 216 A6+RH, when he and his crew failed to return from a reconnaissance sortie to the Royal Navy anchorage at Scapa Flow. At the time he was Stkp. of the 1.(F)/120. Meyer/Stipdonk, Von der Fliegerschule zum Einsatzverband, p. 81; Tank Magazine, Luftwaffe Warbirds Photo Album, III, p. 106, photos of starboard side; Luftwaffe Aces of WW-II (1989), p. 134 photo of port side; IWM/PRO, LW Loss Reports, VII & XXIII; de Zeng research.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Great post Jim P!

So where are the photos of Werner Baumbach's KG 30, unit coded ‘4D’ aircraft?

Nobody ever took a picture of Baumbach's plane??

Bronc

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Below are the photos I have collected that show Werner Baumbach and a Ju88. There is nothing in the photos that confirms that they are Ju88s that Baumbach flew. Only one shows a code, an early Ju88 with the code ??+FN or ??+FM which appears to have black out paint applied. There are other blacked out Ju88s in the photos below which could be the same aircraft, but again nothing to confirm. The others appear to be later versions. One might presume that the crew shots would have been taken in front of their assigned aircraft, but that is not confirmed either... At least one crew member remains consistent in the photos.

Attachment 13389 Attachment 13390 Attachment 13391 Attachment 13392 Attachment 13393 Attachment 13394

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Here are the other three:

Attachment 13395 Attachment 13396 Attachment 13397

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

The aircraft possibly coded 4D+FN would fit nicely with the earlier period for when he was with 5./KG30 from 01.01.40. Unless anyone else knows any different?

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Clint, presume you meant code '4D+FN'?

Knusel/Michael, while the Brütting book is a nice book to have in one's library, it has been superseded by a two-volume set by Jochen Kaiser entitled "Die Ritterkreuztrager der Kampfflieger" published on 2011 by Luftfahrtverlag Start - the same publisher as the LW in Focus series.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Yes Jim, thanks. Corrected earlier. :)

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

It starts in January 1942. (Sorry to take so long in replying)

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Another:

Attachment 13399

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Thanks Jim P

A very nice summary!!
Still very surprised that Aufkl.Gr 120 were chasing ships in D-models in 1941.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Hi,

Regarding Baumbach's shipping claims, Der Adler from 25 March 1941 noted that he took off from Holland on 13 February 1941 in a Ju 88 and claimed one tanker, one auxiliary cruiser and one submarine in the Harwich area.

The official German claims were:

13.2.41, 13:25, II./K.G. 30, English 8,000 ton tanker sunk by two SC 250, east of Harwich, low-level attack from 40-50 metres altitude

13.2.41, 13:30, II./K.G. 30, English submarine attacked with eight SD 50, east of Harwich, after attack the submarine was not found, but a large oil patch was seen in the water.

Also at 13:30 on that day, II./K.G. 30 claimed a 10,000 ton merchant ship damaged with two SC 250, east of Harwich in a low-level attack.


Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

[quote=Jim P.;217119]Ouch, Jim! Granted, the 4 books Doug Stankey and I authored on the Kampfflieger-, Sturzkampfflieger- und Schlachtfliegerverbände were relatively brief summaries, such is not the case with the works of Jochen Prien, Eric Mombeek, Ulf Balke, Wolfgang Dierich and a good dozen others who have researched and written Luftwaffe unit histories! :) ;)

I have a summarized 4 page unit history on Aufklärungsstaffel 1.(F)/120 and here are the primary non-published sources I used in the event anyone wants to research this unit:

NARA WashDC: RG 242 (T-312 roll 1033/1206, roll l070/59l and 969); (T-971 roll 19); AFHRA Maxwell: decimal 512.619 British AirMin P/W interrogations, ADI(K) series, microfilm rolls A5400-05, interrogation ADI(K) 127/44; AFHRA Maxwell: decimal 512.625S (British Air Ministry) OKL document; PRO London: AIR 40 Air Ministry intelligence reports and lists based on ULTRA, “Y” Service intercepts, captured documents and PoW interrogations; BA-MA Freiburg: Signatur RL 9/35 and Signatur RL 40/Kart; BA-MA Freiburg: RL 2 III Meldungen über Flugzeugunfälle…..(Loss Reports – LRs); BA-MA Freiburg: Flugzeug-Bereitstellungen (Aircraft Availability Status Reports – FzB) in: M.Holm-website (ww2.dk); K.Maesel correspondence with author; H.Löhr letter to W.Horst of 16 May 1993; web site forum.12oclockhigh.net.

L.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

He, he Larry

And those of us who have your four books, can we pursuade you to write a fifth about the recce units?? :o

Cheers
Stig

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

It's all written, Stig. I completed the research and finished the manuscript about 4 years ago. I am still trying to decide whether to make a book out of it or put it up on the internet. I don't think any publisher would touch it because only about 2% to 4% of the Luftwaffe fans have any interest in the reconnaissance units, and the cost of self-publishing and marketing say 1,000 copies could run to $25,000 to $30,000. But most importantly, there would be no photos or other illustrations and I am now too old to go through the considerable, stressful and time-consuming work of proofreading, editing and publishing more books. The procurement of say 250 photos could well cost twice that amount and take several years to accomplish. Frankly, publishing a book all by oneself is a gigantic pain right in the butt unless you are affluent, relatively young and have the time to devote to it. But, yes, it would be great to have a series of books that cover the basics and essentials for all Luftwaffe units, both fliegende- und Boden-, big and small.

L. :cry: :) :wink:

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

What a pity Larry

I can understand your 'wrestling' days are over. The publications I have made myself was also back in my youth and admittedly I had more stamina back then.

I cannot understand this 'mania' with fighters, fighters and again fighters.
Surely it is the whole picture that is important.

Of course if you can't publish it, the internet is second best, even if I myself belong to the generation who gets a pleasure just holding a good book in one's hand. No internet in the world can compare with that....

Good luck with your decision Larry.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Thanks for your thoughts, Stig, and I wholeheartedly agree with your comments about the obsession ad nauseam over fighters at the expense of everything else. I never have been able to understand this fixated focus on what was just 1% to 2% of the entire Luftwaffe. Double ditto on the books, too. One of my favorite stops during my many research visits to Washington between 1979 and 1992 was the Library of Congress where I was able to finagle stack privileges. I was like a 7-year-old let loose in a candy factory - acres and acres of shelves holding 40,000,000 books. I guess the fighter fanatics can justifiably turn around and point their finger at me and say, "to each his own obsession!"

L.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

How about crowd funding? It seems such a waist of time and talent not to publish as you had planned it.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Hello Larry,

I know a Belgian writer/publisher who may help you...
Such an amount of time spent 'just' for a manuscript, a shame not to be published. Keep writing.

ClinA-78

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Larry and all Historians,

It is really a pitty. I understand what you say. Although I do have no published work under my name, during the last 25 years I have been in contact with veterans, historians like you, Associations, etc...and have started my own books, which I still do keep going. One day, I am sure they will be edited, even though if by electronic means (PDF format), which seems the best way nowadays.

I have been inspired by fellows like you Larry de Zeng and have met several authors whom I admire here (Chris Goss, Nick Beale, Theo Boithen, Bowman, J-Y Lorant, Jochen Prien and several others - whose names by heart I fogot). Sadly the old ones have passed away: Middlebrook, Hector Bolitho, etc...

I understand that, there is SO MUCH to be written yet...so many stories and histories (individual and Squadrons Histories) to be told and researched, and written, that each contribution to keep those memories alive must be cherished and stimulated. I have seen so many nice Works coming out....that one must keep Faith and keep writing...

Like Dr. Theo Boithen, I have been, during the last 5 years researching about the Brazilians in both RFC and RAF service (WW1 and WW2)....a huge task....so far, one of the books do have some 1,300 pages in 6 volumes...I may have more 5-6 years to finish it..but this is a pleasure and job I firmly believe in...and if this is not published commercially, I will edit it electronically, since I do not want a single penny from those books...just to keep History alive (and maybe help children in need here, donating 100% of my part of the revenues). Hundreds of persons have helped me so far...and we keep going...just to keep History alive...I guess, we are all linked by this love and passion for books. Some professionally....some humbly and privately, like 90% of us....

Just for instance...BAUMBACH and Hans-Georg Bätcher deserves a full biography, like so many great airmen of NZ, Austrália, Germany, France, etc...

Adriano

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Yes, guys like Baumbach, Bätcher and also their Allied couterparts deserve biographies as well as a detailed statistical analysis of their successes (missions flown, ships sunk...).

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Thanks everyone for your encouraging words.

@ Schnautzer: yes, crowd sourcing or funding is a good way to raise money for start-ups, medical expenses, burial expenses and similar, but usually not for books. Besides, the most critical issue to me is the time factor rather than the cost.

@ ClinA-78: thanks for the information!

@ Adriano: that was a very nice post, Adriano. I really hope you are able to finish your manuscripts and get them published. Regarding advances and royalties, Doug and I never made a penny from our 4 books. By the time the photos, graphics, set-up and printing costs are covered, there is nothing left for the author. The only book subjects that seem to yield a profit these days are sex and scandal!

L. :)

Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Larry

Well I am in that 2% to 4% and I would definatly buy a book of yours on the Aufklärungsgeschwader.

A similar book on the ZG units would also be welcome too! I live in hope!

Regards Richard.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

I agree with Richard and would be very happy if a book of the Aufklärungsgeschwader will be available. There´s not much "on the market".
Bernd

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

I third Richard and Bernd.
another Richard

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Sorry Larry, (for the late post for one thing) that was not meant in any way as criticism by any means - I have all your books! My comment was meant as that there have not been (and probably will never be) many detailed histories or diaries of most LW units along the lines of the Prien team's work for fighter units or the few other detailed unit histories that have been published such as those done for KG 27 (Walt Waiss), LG 1 (Peter Taghon), JG 26 (Don Caldwell), etc. On the contrary, you and Doug have opened the door, so to speak, to begin to give us even a basic history/understanding of so many units about which we're likely to never to know anything else about except for the odd entry in the loss reports. I certainly thank you for that.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

...most airwar enthusiasts are intrested in lists, compilations, records, and statistics which can easily be performed with the aerial kills of the fighter aces.
I think, the key to move the bomber and reconnaissance pilots into the focus is expressing their achievements in some kind of numerical value...

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

@ Jim P. -

Thanks, Jim. I fully agree with your comments. To provide the level of detail found in Prien, Waiss, Taghon and a few others, one needs lots and lots of money and time to do just one Geschwader. Few of the veterans are left and their Flugbücher, Soldbücher and other records either lost, thrown out by disinterested relatives or scattered to the four winds. And we all know that there are only fragments left in the archives. Together, this makes the task impossible or nearly impossible.

L.