Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good evening,

can anybody tell me the middle name, date of birth and/or date of death of Consolidated PB4Y ace Sheldon Sutton ?

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Hi Michael,
Found this in Flight Magazine 1946:
Lt. Sheldon L. Sutton’s crew destroyed seven Japanese aircraft in the air. As the result of a tree top level chase 26 year old, Sutton USNR drove a single engine fighter into Luzon Hill without firing a single round. His aerial score was the best of any Liberator pilot in the Pacific War.

Regards
Andy Bird

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

His middle name is Lloyd. This is from a 1942 Illinois paper ( The Pantagraph from Bloomington, Illinois ).

"SHELDON LLOYD SUTTON, son of Mr. Harold W. Sutton of Malden, was recently appointed a naval aviation cadet and transferred to Pensacola, Fla for flight training. He attended Illinois Wesleyan university for two years. He reported to the naval reserve aviation base at St. Louis, Mo., In February. There he successfully passed the elimination training course In March."

He "may" still actually be alive (age 95) living in North Carolina. He stayed in the Navy until retirement.

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Cool.
Where can I get his address ? ;-)

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Try zabasearch.com with the name Sheldon L Sutton and North Carolina for the state, or
www.anywho.com/whitepages with just the name Sheldon Sutton and NC.



Note that these search sites are often not up to date, but one of them gives an age for the man (Sheldon L) in Raleigh as 95, so probably worth a stamp to find out.

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Great !
I'll have a try. Thank you.

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Hello there Gentlemen,

can you tell me if all 323 kills that Consolidated PB4Y's scored in WW2 were scored in the Pacific theatre of operations (PTO) ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

You will find a list of air-to-air claims for American patrol aircraft during WWII here: http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories...e.aircraft.pdf

These included claims by PB4Y but also PBY and possibly PBM. But still you will find in this list some claims for JU 88 C-6 and Do 217 over Biscay Bay by VB-103 and VB-105, using PB4Y, so the answer of your question is: almost all PB4Y kills were scored in the Pacific, but not all of them.

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Hello Laurent,

thanks for your answer.
I found five PB4Y claims against German aircraft: two by VB103, two by VB105 and one by VB110. I tracked the locations by the latitude and longitude given although the hyphens in the data were quite troublesome. I think we can safely say that these five German planes were downed in the Atlantic and thus represent ETO kills (not MTO).

Can you tell me if all PB4Y claims against Japanese aircraft represent PTO kills (and not CBI) ?

Kind regards,

Michael

PS: Intriguingly I found two guys who narrowly missed becoming PV Ventura/Harpoon aces : John Harshberger and Frank Schwable (4 kills each).

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Looks like there are about 321 total credits to gunners aboard PB4Y’s operating in the Pacific. As near as I can tell from looking at what squadron was stationed where and when during the war there were no PB4Y squadrons operating in the CBI.

You may wish to look at
https://www.history.navy.mil/researc...ld-war-ii.html
“Air to air claims and credits for Navy and Marine Corps patrol type aircraft during World War II”


You’ll find LTJG Sheldon Sutton as PPC of a VBP-117 PB4Y appears seven times with credits falling to his gunners:

On 12 Dec 1944, 1 Tony near 12°-23’N 120°-59’E
On 24 Dec 1944, 1 Jake near 21°-30’N 122°-40’E
On 24 Dec 1944, 1 Pete near 21°-30’N 121°-03’E
On 5 Jan 1945, 1 Jake near 15°-55’N 119°-35’E
On 5 Jan 1945, 1 Jake near 15°-30’N 119°-35’E
On 8 Jan 1945, 1 Jake near 11°-30’N 109°-15’E
On 21 Jan 1945, 1 Jill near 26°-55’N 128°-00’E

The only fighter on this list, from the lat/long noted, went into the water off the SSW coast of Mindoro, about six miles NW of the present San Jose Airport.

Likewise the other six locations are all over water.

Regards

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Regarding CBI kills, it seems to me that classification is done according to the hierarchic command of the unit rather than the location of the kill.

For example, the kills over Southern France are classified as ETO when scored by 8th AF and by MTO when scored by 12th and 15th AF.

As for PB4Y against the Japanese, as no PB4Y unit was based in CBI during the war, all are PTO kills (even if some were scored on Chinese coast).

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good evening Leonard & Laurent,

thanks for the info which is of good help.
Can you tell me which rank Sheldon Sutton had attained at the end of the war and which rank when he retired from military service ?
Did he receive some awards ?

Kind regard,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Sheldon Lloyd Sutton (145671)

ENS, USNR AV(N), 10/16/1942
LTJG, USNR AV(N), 1/1/1944
LT, USNR A1, 5/1/1945
LCDR, USN, 2/1/1952
CDR, USN, 9/1/1956

Not sure when he retired, sometime after 1962 as I got his date of rank for commander from the 1962 register and he does not appear in the next volume I have, 1967. Anytime after October 1962 would have been 20 years in, that’s worth a half pay retirement. I believe his highest award was the DFC.

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good morning Leonard,

cool. Thank you.
Has the tonnage of the two ships sunk by Sutton ever been estimated ?
Or the tonnage of the 19 ships sunk by VPB-117 comrade Arthur Elder ?

Have a nice Friday,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Well, specialty of the house is people. However, if you could supply some dates, perhaps I could reach into the files and find something . . . maybe, if there's something there . . . not really the way I have things organized.

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good morning Leonard,

I wonder who is the most successful Allied pilot against shipping and if somebody has sunk more than the German top pilot in this field Werner Baumbach.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=44621
Werner Baumbach allegedly - though likely inflated - is credited with 300.000 BRT but I don't know the number of ships. Arthur Elder sunk 19 ships but I don't know the tonnage.

I've found an interesting Sheldon Sutton article:
http://www.texasgopvote.com/governme...raiders-008875

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Michael thanks for that great article. Very well done for an obscure part of WWII.

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Thanks, John.
Good evening Leonard & Laurent,

according to James Sawruk the PV Venturas/Harpoons claimed 21 Japanese planes. Were all these kills scored in the PTO (and not CBI) ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

is there a technical difference that discriminates all PB4Y's from all B-24's ?

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Main differences were the PB4Y had the fuselage extended by 2m, most or all of that between the leading wing edge and the cockpit, a large single vertical stabiliser tail rather than twin, fuselage side blisters for defensive weapons, no ventral ball turret, more MG's, and no superchargers.
Cheers
Peter

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good morning Peter,

I think what you wrote is true for the PB4Y-2.
Is there a feature that discrimates the PB4Y-1 from all B-24's ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Sorry Michael, you're right.
The early PB4Y-1's were B-24D's transferred from army to navy.
This artcle might help you if you haven't seen it already -

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=35233.0

Cheers
Peter

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good afternoon Peter,

were all PB4Y kills scored by PB4Y-1's ?

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Sorry, I don't have that info. No idea where to get it.
Peter

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

The last kill of a PB4Y ace (Paul Stevens) took place on 17Mar1945.

Were PB4Y-2's available already at that date ?

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

The PB4Y-2 entered squadron service (with VPBs 106, 118 and 119) in August 1944.

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good evening,

where there PB4Y-2 Privateers used by VPB-117, VPB-115, VPB-104 or VD3 in WW2 ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Those squadrons operated PB4Y-2s from May 1945 (104 and 115) and June 1945 (117). VD-3 had none.

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good morning twocee,

thanks for the info.
That means that all PB4Y aces scored in the PB4Y-1 only.

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Is it true that there was no technical difference between a PB4Y-1 and an ordinary B-24 ?

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Michael,


Here's a link to the VP-117 unit history page in the USN patrol squadron website:
http://www.vpnavy.com/vp117_1940.html


Go back a few pages and a lot of the other squadrons operating PB4Y-1s and -2s are listed, and the Coronado units too.


Happy digging,
...geoff

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good evening Geoff,

why are the scorers of the PB4Y's so well-defined whereas the B-24 scorers were not ? Was is because stategic bombing was teamwork whereas the patrol bombers operated alone ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

The Navy gunners were not as imaginative as their Army counterparts?

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Michael,
It's a lot like @twocee says..... :D


Analytically, it's the numbers game. B-24s operate in bigger formations (very big in ETO, medium size in MTO, near squadron size in CBI and SWPA). All those gunners shooting at a few fast moving fighters; if one fighter starts to smoke (or just rolls over and accelerates....causing increase in exhaust smoke), 50+ gunners will claim a kill (and we're not talking about any dishonesty, just the real belief that you shoot at something, it smokes and looks like it's going down, so you claim a hit or a kill).


Navy PB4Y-1/-2s operate in small numbers, singles or pairs mostly on shipping patrols or ASW. Only occasionally in half-squadron numbers or more, for added numbers in actual bombing raids. The navy claims tend to be more accurately reported, as they have more time to see the result.


That's a generalisation, but you get the overall picture. Remember also, that for bomber formation gunners in ETO, the effective range for a 50-cal means the fighter target is about the size of your thumbnail or fingertip to first knuckle with your arm outstretched. The attacking fighter may be the size of your pinkie-finger nail when it starts lobbing 20mm or 30mm cannon shells at you. So the action mostly happens a bit further away.


From what I've read of the SWPA bomber ops, the Zeros came in close due to the slow firing nature of their 20mm cannons. Also a lot of the PB4Y kills occurred with them chasing the Japanese aircraft (including a few fighters!). So, I'm guessing much closer range, and hence better to observe actual results.


Thinking 'while walking & talking,
...geoff

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

fascinatingly VPB-117 sunk more ships than it shot down planes.
The ranking ship destroyer Arthur Elder sunk 19, has the tonnage of that tally ever been indicated ?

Have a good start into the new week,

Michael

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

A couple of pages on medals awarded to Arthur Grant Elder (follow arrows at bottom of 1st page to see 2nd page:

https://valor.militarytimes.com/hero/19110

Re: Sheldon Sutton and the Consolidated PB4Y
 

Good evening RSwank,

thanks for the link. This is the first time I see a photo of Elder.
Next month is my wedding anniversary and and the month after that my 42. birthday. Maybe I wish for this book:
https://www.amazon.de/Mavis-Emily-PB...rmat=4&depth=1
I wish you a good start into the weekend,

Michael