Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Aviation-pho...AAAOSwttFed2ve


is a photo of a Voisin aircraft captioned as a type 10. However it appears to bear serial V1748 on the tailplane. At least looking at :


http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...ete_Voisin.htm


the serial would seem more appropriate to a type 8, but I'm no expert!
So any assistance with the ID gratefully received.


Also, I prefer if possible not to post reproductions, but not sure about my french Tirage Originel = original or not?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

I agree Clint

Serial belongs to a Voisin VIII

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hi Stig,


Thanks for the reply. While I must stop spending, are you aware of any publications with more complere serial lists than the one I linked to?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

No I am not

The Avions Voisin book is very much lacking in such details, so if you want serial numbers, that book is not what you are after.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Today on ebay is a photo of a Russian Voisin at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Russia-Mosc...IAAOSwZlZaJN5r


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay a photo of a burning Voisin Type 3 LA at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/SUPERSELTEN-...cAAOSwNF5enFqO


Safe to assume not FEA 6.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently for sale on ebay a nice photo of a Voisin which appears to have fallen into German hands at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/RPPC-englisc...UAAOSwDtResDMV


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


On ebay a photo of Italian Voisin Type 3 LA serial No.380 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Rara-foto-or...IAAOSwZUhcnhk6


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Voisin Type 3 LA V.821 of VB 103 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Photo-aviati...QAAOSweKRev7p0


and also a Voisin Triplane at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Photo-franca...4AAOSwtupewJ52




Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a nice photo of Voisin Type 10 LAR V.3096 at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Flugzeu...sAAOSwjYFeyWJn


The seller advises that it is a repro, but I thought I'd post as its a nice aerial shot. Has anyone the unit which flew V.3096?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently the following photos of Voisin aircraft can be seen on Delcampe:


Voisin Type 3 L V.69


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...664733575.html
https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...664732564.html


Voisin Type 5 LAS V.1321



https://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-AK...EAAOSwYfBezk~r


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-AK...8AAOSwk7Vezk~l


Voisin Type 8 LAP? V.1631


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...874578982.html


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on Delcampe is a photo of Voisin Type 3 LA V.589 of 7 Squadriglia at:


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...003084243.html



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are two Voisin aircraft as follows:


Voisin Type 3 LAS V.851?


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Accide...QAAOSw7Bdez4oy

Voisin Type 5 LAS V.996 of VB.10


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Aviate...8AAOSwgGlez4hE


I'm not certain about the last digit on the LA, but 1 seems the least implausible.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Clint

I agree with V.851 but the "V.996" is far more tricky, especially the first digit.
The way I see it it could be either a 2, 8 or 9. Since the French used a, what I can only call, a filled in digit 2, that is the upper half was shaped like the upper part of the digit 8 and 9, it could be any of those.

Unfortunately the Voisin III (LA) was built all the way between V.296 to V.996 so no help there.

Nice photo anyway...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Stig,


OK, taking on board your questions about the second photo, I personally don't feel confident enough in my identification skills to narrow down the type of Voisin shown, but from your response you sound certain its an LA? Or do I read too much into your response?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Well Clint

It is either that or an LAS (with a so called raised engine)
Aeronautique Militaire called both type III.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Ok


That I didn't know, the both called Type III.I suppose I should go and reread French Aircraft of World War One. That though will have to wait till tomorrow, though definitely hoping Halberstadt Vol.1 arrives early tomorrow. In whicch case my day is filled.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a crashed Voisin, possibly V.600 on the German side of the lines at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/X4577-Foto-W...AAAOSwADZe5ej3


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Voisin Type 3 LA V.215 at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Aviation-Avi...oAAOSw0dZd8W~2


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Voisin type 5 LAS V.1354 at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/FRENCH-SOLD...0AAOSwW1FeytWq



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hi Clint

In my books, this is still a Type III and if it thus is a LA or LAS is beyond me.
However the placing of the digits makes me think it could have something to do with Italy.....

The individuals look a bit non-Gallic to me. What do you think?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hi Stig,


Yes, funny but I had exactly the same two thoughts as yourself. The serial would fit for an Italian Voisin although I have none higher than 1333 in that batch and the first Caudron G.3 at 1358, and, I hate to stereotype, but those guys do look Italian.However, one reservation, the placing of the serial number. Yes it is on the body of the aircraft, but the serial on the few Italian Voisin I've seen has been larger and more prominently placed.Also as you'll recall from the Farman thread on this board, while unusual, serial numbers on the nacelles of French pusher aircraft are not unknown. Oh and another thought, and I'm writing this without having checked. Did the Italians use Hotchkiss machine guns. Well, I think I've avoided commiting myself one way or the other.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hi Clint

First of all I don't think it is an Italian serial number as such, the number is probably French alright.

I know way too little about how things were done with aircraft the Italians imported. From the SPAD publication done by Alegi, we know that very few of those were actually marked with Italian serials, they flew on with what the French had painted on them.

Did all Voisins get Italian serials? Did they fly for some time with French IDs? We know that the Italians favoured serial numbers either at the front or on the sides of aircraft while the French favoured a rear position.
I can well imagine the French (Voisin) as a courtesy painting the French ID on the nose of their aircraft going to Italy.

With regard to the armament, I have never looked closely at that, so I know very little of what went along with the sale or what was supplied locally.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hi Stig,


Clearly this is going to be a difficult machine to identify. I believe we may require assistance from a board user who recognizes the chevrons on the aircraft.


A fw observations. If it is accepted that the serial number is french, then the type of aircraft shown would appear to fall into a batch of Type 5 LAS according to the Albin Denis site at: http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...ete_Voisin.htm


If it is a french built machine then it is necessary to observe that Italy is not included among the operators of the Type 5 LAS in Davilla and Soltan.


However, the serial would be viable for an SIT built Type 3 LA. What is the highest serial number you are aware of for a V.13xx series machine? As I've already mentioned V.1333 is the highest I have, but frankly I don't have sufficient reference material.Edit there is a photo of V.1347 of 5 Squadriglia at:guerra-allorizzonte.it/Aviatori/fucini.html if you click on the link for 5a Squadriglia in the text. Also as already stated the serial placement and size is atypical for any Italian built machine of this batch, but again insufficient data is a problem. Do you have WDF 135? Any clues?


At the moment based on far too little information, I incline to a french operated Type 5 LAS, but would happily be proven wrong, just to have certain information.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello

May be escadrille 481 :

http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...adrille481.htm

The plane has what looks like a Salmson liquid cooled engine, so Voisin 5 probably

Regards

Jean

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello Jean,


Well certainly the chevrons are not unlike those of V481, but reading the text on the Albindenis site, the LBP machines were cannon armed and V.1354 is not. I also believe checking images that the cockpit layout of the LBP is significantly different to that of the V.1354. I'll defer to you on the engine I can't tell from the machine in my link the type of engine used.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello

Before the type 8, Escadrille 481 had Voisin Type 5, and the serial number of the plane seems too low for type 8

Regards

Jean

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello Jean,


I agree with you on that. Failing the emergence of further information I think we can definitely say a type 5. Were there no other Voisin type 5 operators with chevron markings?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Jean

Good thinking, but like Clint I am suspicious about this being a V.481 aircraft.

The armament is clearly a machine gun and such a weapon would be useless for the main duties of a unit like V.481.

First of all I am old fashioned and like to use Roman digits when listing these Voisin models. It looks much better.... :)

However before proceeding any further, I would like to know from where you, Jean, gets that V.481 initially used Type V? There is no such indication on either Albert Denis site or in the SHAA book Les Escadrille etc.

As a side note I have to say, unfortunately, lots of people use Voisin designations and Aeronautique Militaire designations mixed like it makes no difference. Well I disagree, it does make a great difference. Albert Denis says V.481 used both LAP and LBPs when in fact they didn't. They used Voisin VIIIBN2 and Voisin VIIICa2. Both the LAP and LBP designations were Voisin's and not Aeronautique Militaire's.

I also want to draw everyones attention to a potential fault in Soltan/Davilla's work.

Was really the Voisin III and Voisin V both called LAS by Voisin? There is no doubt that the Voisin III was designated LA/LAS by Voisin since the raised engine was already started on the model LA. But why would the company not bother about, when installing a completely new engine and also do some further work on the airframe, to change the type letters? Did Voisin think that these modifications all of a sudden did not warrant any new type designation at all? On page 552 (Zoltan/Davilla) the Voisin V is called LAS (identifying the whole production as using the so called raised engine), but on page 554 the same aircraft are now suddenly listed as both the LB (France) and LBS (in Russia). This makes very little sense to me.

Anyone who can clarify this anomaly?

Since I have no idea from where (and how reliable) the serial number listing on Albert Denis' site is, I am still not 100% certain the present photo actually is a Type V (well LAS or LB or even LBS? :) ) How does one differentiate between a 120 hp Salmson engine and a 150hp one in photos? Exactly what streamlining has been made and does anyone actually see that in a photo?

Also, to be honest, since I cannot see the difference in photos of the so called raised engine on the types in question the S means little to me and I actually don't bother about it as such. If an author is comfortable with seing a difference, I go along with that. In real life during the war, the difference in performance was negligible.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello

The information upon the usage of the type V at Escadrille 481 comes from the tradition-air.fr site, wich includes the symbols of all the Escadrilles and some information on each one. https://www.traditions-air.fr/

If the plane does not belong to the 481 Escadrille, a slight possibility could be that the "V" marking is an individual plane marking. Not really a straightforward information !

Officialy, the Escadrille 481 had 3 "cannon" Voisin VIII and 6 "bomber" Voisin VIII at July 1st 1917 (historical study done by the Marine nationale in 1927). Before, during the three early months of existence, I have no primary source.

For the visual differences between the type III and the type V, they are not obvious. I will check if there one recognizable on a photo.

Regards
Jean

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Thanks Jean

I all honesty I am not comfortable with the site you present and their listing of type V. Could easily be a mistake due to the V marking the unit used....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a crashed Voisin with a chevron marking at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-U-S-Off...YAAOSwoF5cjTBR


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello
The photo was taken at Paris, Place de la Concorde (recognizables columns and typical parisian cops), during the winter. The hunt for the "V" markings continue...
Regards
Jean

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello Jean,


Thanks. I was hoping someone could identify the location, but hadn't expected Paris. I'm guessing, and it is a guess, given the number 7 inside the V, it may ne a different unit than V.1354? I take it that the aircraft was exhibited to show the sacrifices of war?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello


This could be the crashed Voisin (pilot Sachot, gunner Le Juge, both wounded), who suffered an engine failure the night from January 30 to 31 1918, during a German night bombing attack, and had to make an emergency landing at the place de la Concorde, ending in a low wall. The plane was removed two days later.



A remotely possible escadrille is the 114 (from a photo in "La Vie aérienne illustrée" a few days later, showing a Voisin X canon with an owl and two guys in front presented as Sachot and Le Juge). But that can be misleading (VB 114 was far from Paris at this date), and press photos had not to be accurate, specially at war time.



According to the press coverage (duly censored), the plane was a "Voisin-canon".



A more probable explanation for the chevron is the plane belonging to an escadrille of the "Camp retranché de Paris" (CRP), in charge of the aerial defense of the city. They were the Escadrilles 461 thru 472, each having a chevron oriented differently (>, <, V...). Best guess would be Escadrille 470, and perhaps more information in the book "les escadrilles de l'aéronautique militaire en France".



Regards
Jean

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on delcampe is a photo of Voisin Type VIII Bn.2 V.1670 at:




https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...038783430.html



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Voisin Type 3 LA serial V.434 at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Avion-...QAAOSwyH9fHsd3


Other photos of Voisn aircraft from the same seller can be seen at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Avion-...0AAOSwWDNfHsfW


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Avion-...IAAOSw6NdfHscs


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are two photos of Voisin Type 4 Cannon V.981 at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/FOTO-FLUGZEU...oAAOSw5alfPm~-


https://www.ebay.de/itm/FOTO-FLUGZEU...UAAOSwDIZfPm-0


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Interesting shots Clint

Aircraft has previously been identified as V.991 shot down 10.1.1916.
The second digit is difficult to see and we now have three offers, V.901, V.981 and V.991.

Is V.981 your own interpretation or do you have some other "back up" confirming the serial?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Voisin
 

Hi Stig,


It is in fact V.991 of VB 103. I could tell that V.901 was too low a number to be a type 4,but read a branch across the serial as forming an 8, but it isn't its a 9 ascan be seen clearly in other photos.


Regards,


Clint