1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Hi Guys,

As some of you will know I have been researching this recon unit for many years and have compiled all the losses from 1939 - 1942. I managed to get all the NVM reports from WASt in Berlin before they became no longer available. I am hoping that some of our members can help with losses for the 1 Staffel for the year 1943. Any details would be greatly appreciated by myself.

Thank you

Melvin

www.aircrewremembrancesociety.co.uk

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Unfortunately cannot help you but do you know who flew 1/123's 1000th operational flight on 18 Jul 42 as I have a commemorative plate made in Quimper to that event

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Chris,

I have the details and photos for that event, will try and locate and report back later.

Melvin

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

The aircraft that completed the 1000th mission was the 4U+KH crewed by Lt. Arndt, Fw. Kunze, Fw. Hoefs and Uffz. Hartwig.

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Thanks Melvin-here is the plate!

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Ah Chris, I have seen a similar plate to yours when I visited Fritz Schlichting in Detmold in 2004, he had the same plate hanging on his wall! Have attached a couple of images of the two plates he had and the original showing the two plates in the Staffel Album. He also had a carved model of a Ju 88 diving on England on his desk. Sadly Fritz is no longer with us, he was around 90 years of age when I visited. Hope you like the pictures.

Melvin

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

So there are at least 2 in the World-mine is sitting in front of me on my desk. Before I start delving deeper, anything more about the fate of Arndt & his crew?

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Not sure, I know that Arndt survived 1942 at least, hence my quest for the 1943 Italy losses!

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Melvin
Was Arndt a BO if so Hans Arndt Pokal 25 Jan 43?
Kunze FF Willi Pokal 25 Jan 43?
Günter Höfs BF Pokal 26 Oct 42?

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Yes, all those names are correct, thanks for that useful info!

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Chris,

Searching through the NVM reports of the 4./(F)123 found the loss of Willi Kunze, Horst Haertwig, Guenther Hoefs and Karl-Heinz Hartwig on the 16.02.1943 south of the Isle of Wight. Further delving and I found in my notes that Hans Arndt is MIA on the 26.06.1943, so would be great to get his loss details.

Melvin

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Thanks very much for the listing Larry, very useful indeed. All I need now are the Werke Nr's and crew details. Thanks for sharing!

Regards,

Melvin

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Ju 88 D-1, 430674, 4U+AH. Target Algiers. Ofw Gerhard Pieper-F, Oblt Hans Arndt-B, Ofw Walter Rein-BF all missing. Looks like the Kunze crew were a victim of Flt Sgt Frank Murphy of 486 Sqn 1850 hrs 30 miles south of St Catherine's Point

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Hello guys,

the attached file list the crew-names of a/c lost with 1 (F) 123 in 1943 as far as the WASt-reports have survived. You will see, that this is pretty close to Larrys list. Sometimes the codes differ, but this is due to the fact, that the WASt-reports sometimes are in a very bad shape and you have to do an educated guess.

Greetings

Carl

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Thanks Chris and Charles, the info very much appreciated!

Melvin

www.aircrewremembrancesociety.co.uk

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Chris, Here is a pic of the crew lost off the Isle of Wight on the 16.02.43.

Regards,

Melvin

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Melvin
Photo matches well with the 1000th photo apart from surely Uffz Hart should be Hartwig?

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Chris, The crew picture was taken from one of the original Staffel Albums that I copied. I think some of the names were added at a later date, but as you say it should be Hartwig!

Regards,

Melvin

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Larry de Zeng.

"15-30 June 1943: the Staffel too delivery of 6 Ju 88 T-2, which was a new, significantly faster high altitude version of the Ju 88 that was specifically outfitted with aerial camera installations."

Well. Not Ju 88 T-2, version was Ju 88 T-1 (BMW 801 engines replacing Jumo 211 J). These were conversions from Ju 88 D-1 Recce. Ju 88 D-1 already was Photo recce airplane, and major production version since summer 1941, so statement is false (pointless), only BMW 801 versions were faster at altitude. Yet were relatively easily caught by RAF Spitfires. In my opinion these were too late, and relatively few were converted.

For example. 430614 mentioned in list in previous post (really 0880430614) was the 7th conversion - the "T/7", not A-4, that is false.
(Source: Modification lists)

17 August 1943: Ju 88 A-4 (4U+DH) FTR from the Algiers area, 100%, Oblt. Hugo Diebold (observer) + 2 MIA.

430614 Ju 88 T-1´ [4U+DH] 1.(F)/123 (Luftflotte 2)
OPS (F) missing (100%) unk location (Algier) 17.08.1943 (F Uffz. Wolfgang Hüter, B Oblt. Hugo Diebold and BF Uffz. Hans-Dietrich Kaminski mis)
[as A4 430614 in GQM losses, Salonen NVM]

Regards
Ed

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Some victors of the above losses:

26 June 1943: 1st Lt. John A. Urban, 346th FS, 350th FG claimed a Ju 88 in Algiers area

8 July 1943: 1st Lt. Robert E. Armstrong, Jr., 4th FS, 52nd FG claimed a photo-recon Ju 88 west of Bizerte. Hit b yreturn fire, bailed out and ended in the same hospital than a German survivor, Lt Hermann "Schmick" (noted Lt Henry Schmidt in Charles' post above)
(description in the book "Spitfires and Yellow Tail Mustangs", p 52)

22 August 1943: 4U+DH was shot down by Flt Lt Ken Debenham of 249 Sqn
(book "Spitfires over Sicily", pages 196-197)

27 August 1943: 4U+1H was shot down by Flg Off Ken MacBain RCAF of 249 Sqn
(book "Spitfires over Sicily", pages 200)

8 November 1943: I have no claim by P-38 units, the only USAAF claim in MTO this day was by 1st Lt. Clarence F Musgrave of 65th FS, 57th FG who claimed a Ju 88 shot down off Pescara, Italy between 14h35 and 15h35. This unit was flying P-40s and preparing to convert to P-47.

26 November 1943: Sqn Ldr Peter Lawrence Parrott, CO of 43 Sqn RAF claimed a shared Ju 88 shot down off Capua.
(Osprey Aviation Elite Units 9)

22 December 1943: two French Spitfires of GC II/7 "Nice", flown by Lt Prunget and adjudant Haberkorn shot down around noon a Ju 88 in the sea, 50 km WSW of Ajaccio, Corsica.
(book "Pilotes français sur l'Afrique du Nord et la Corse", pages 344-345)

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Here is good overview of Ju 88 T-1´s assigned to this unit.

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/aufkl/b1ag123.html

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Edward North wrote in part:
The offending error in my "15-30 June 1943" entry came from Allied intelligence documents, probably an interrogation report. In reading through these over the past 30+ years, it was quite clear that in mid-1943 many, but certainly not all, Allied intelligence personnel were lacking the autoritative detail needed to differentiate between the Ju 88 S and T designations and got them mixed up, that is until the technical intelligence people straightened things out. It is also true that captured German air crew gave their interrogators misleading information that led to erroneous conclusions.

L.

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Humm.... it seems some are still not gettin this right. My name is NOT Edward, never has had that name, you can look up my profile here at TOCH! for true name. BTW, I belive it´s an offence call a person by wrong fictitious name...

My humble apologies for your 70+ year old data. My sincere hope is that (uncorrected) it will not find its way into any future "Recce Units" book.

However offending errors seem be elsewhere also. Nothing personal.

Reason I say so is (year 2007 Midland / Ian Allan publishing) book "Bomber Units of the Luftwaffe 1933-1945" (authors Henry L. de Zeng IV and Douglas Stankey, with Eddie Creek) has very many erros in indentification of the various Ju 88 types, apparently due lack of knowing how to differentiate them. I had this book as an Christmas gift from an friend of mine, but was seriously thinking of throwing it away - as trash (soory the pun) - it is fit for recycling, but I wanted contact the authors first. Who ever wrote them very errerous photo captions in that book should be sentenced to walk the plank (if people know what that was done in the old days) - it is very similar errors as "recently seen commented on in book revues here elsewhere at TOCH! where an Medcalf authored Ju 88 books was discussed" (!)

A list of these errors can be submitted for first part of of that said book. I have really not read more of it...

Regards
Ed

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Right, everyone calm down or this thread closes.

"I belive it´s an offence call a person by wrong fictitious name..."

No "ed", it's a simple and readily understandable mistake as I'm sure you are perfectly well aware. "Ed" is one of the most common shortened forms of "Edward" in English, the language of this forum. I’m sure that you would not thank me for pointing out your errors in the use of English because it is my first language but not yours; in the same spirit you could learn to accept that others may not know quite as much about the Ju 88 as you do.

It must also have occurred to you that the primary purpose of the book you mention was not the taxonomy of aircraft sub-types. It's a shame that you place so little value on the information contained in the main text, but that must remain a matter for you.

"70+ year old data"

The only data we have about the war is 70+ years old, that's when it happened. Archaeology aside, all we have gained since are new interpretations of that data. Anyone acquainted with wartime sources will be aware that they are frequently contradictory or of dubious reliability. Captured crews not only misled interrogators about what sub-type they were flying, it seems evident that many simply didn't know (or even care, perhaps). Since we are talking about Ju 88s, here are some for you:

• A wreck at Istres with 2629 painted on the fin and 301532 painted in yellow on the exhaust shroud. So what was its correct Werk Nummer?
• W.Nr. 822924 at Valence, recorded by those who examined the wreck as an A-4 trop. but reported by its unit as being an A-17. So whom should one believe?

You say, quite reasonably, that the Ju 88 T was a conversion and “relatively easily caught by RAF Spitfires” but conversely its bomber equivalent, the S model, was sometimes classed separately in German reports, e.g. this (71 year-old) one about aircraft breaking off an attack on Bristol: “three Ju 188, four Ju 88, one Ju 88 S and one Me 410.” Or this, from Fliegerdivision 2’s Operations Officer in August 1944: “1.(F)/33 will provide as battle reconnaissance aircraft Ju 88 S” (bearing in mind that the Staffel had available not only this type but Ju 88s with Jumo 211, Ju 188s with Jumo 213 and BMW 801 and Me 410 A-3).

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Yes, my first language is not English, but I am not saying other (including Mr. Beale and Mr. deZeng) are bad writing writers, perhaps that should be left for the native professional revuers, or none at all, but there has been some previous problems here at TOCH! in this regard, in that doors have been slammed (prematurely) and the matters not discussed properly or thrugh the whole process.

Some of the problem might be that "the subject" (Luftwaffe and the Germans) lost, but the Victors (the Allied) still controlling the discussion. It does not matter how I write it. Are men trying avoid the discussion, on their works or their research, or others. In general.

As most regular readers here, some ask and ask and ask, whilst others give and give and give. I think I´ve given enough, rightly or wrongly, but on the average satisfactory, I also think, altho opinions may differ, but that is normal and expected, now prefer (some) quality before quantity. I was expecting honest academic answer, not accusations.

Please do not slam on the messanger. The messinger is NOT to be blamed for beeing the carrier. Good writers in our age of fast internet and mass media, are an endangered species. I very much prefer Arthur Conan Doyle or similar writers, over bread and butter writers like Mr. Green. Yes, I like detective stories! And I like proper research. Simple. Nothing other.

1. Mr. deZeng blamed his sources, but did not explain.
2. Mr. Beale did explain his some while back, if I remember correctly.

Yes, guilty, I have done my own primary research on Ju 88´s and not relied on others do that for me. Therefore I dare talk or tip on this. I am not trying be selling anthing to anyone and I am not going publish all till all is basically fully ready and then can be discussed in full. And I go further "in basic" respects than before has been done. But I may need much more help. The task is awesome and financially very strained.

I prefer mr. deZeng should not class this as personal attack. Far from it. Rather focus on as try to mention taboo issues in book publishing - where quality seems be sacrificed, and professionalism is no longer valiued.

In my opinion this thred can go on unhindered.

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

"W.Nr. 822924 at Valence, recorded by those who examined the wreck as an A-4 trop. but reported by its unit as being an A-17. So whom should one believe?"

Not very complex answer. W.Nr. 822924 TI+BD was standard late production A-4 from Siebel Halle assembly. Many know what the Ju 88 A-17´s were used for, but some do not. It was type Ju 88 A-4 adapted (converted) in late 1943 for carrying of certain type of torpedoes, in attacking shipping, yet not same version as A-4 Torp (alias Ju 88 A-4 LT) - but I am not shure if Mr. Beale realy meant "A-4 trop" (tropicalized) or "A-4 torp" (Torpedo Bomber), so this answer is given two fold.

Well, the A-17 was the torpedo bomber version, made up of A-4 airframes. Else it was not an A-17. So you now decide which to belive. Take the Torpedo gear out, then you have the original version.

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Hi.

I have details of 22 losses recorded for the 1.(F)/123 during 1943.

If you are interested I can post a list of links for the records here.

Regards,
Andreas B

Warning
 

OK, everyone be calm and keep to the subject, If not, I will usurp my fellow moderator, Nick, and close this thread. Personal attacks have no place on this site.

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Dear John,

Why would you wish to usurp Nick ? No need to, as he addressed masterfully an issue clearly born out of a language issue, an issue which from time to time is overseen by the native english speakers here. The resulting answers given to Nick's tactful intervention are highly interesting in their own right.

Sincerely
Marc

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Larry

That really is excellent information on 1./(F)123.

I have a Wehrpass to a Flugzeugfuhrer KIA on 06-04-1944 from 1./(F)123, do you by chance have any continuing information in this format of the Staffel from February 1944 through to April 1944?

If so, that really would be a great help in the research of this man.

Thank you as always. Regards Richard.

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

1944-04-06, 1.(F)/123, Ju 88 T-1, 881131, 4U+JH, 20 km südwestlich Anzio, Luftkampf um 15.15 Uhr mit Spitfires. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Holeschowski, Hans, +
Beobachter Lt Saalecker, Werner, vermißt
Bordfunker Uffz Thumm, Heinz, vermißt
Bordschütze Uffz Schulz, Gottlieb, vermißt

Matti

1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Matti

Thank you as always for your help with the information on loss returns.

I made a mistake, when in fact it is the Beobachter, Salecker of whom I have the Wehrpass, and the details of his crew and aircraft are most welcome.

Another question concerns an entry in his Wehrpass for the award of a Verwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz awarded on 10-?-44, the month seems unreadable unfortunatly. Are you able to help with any loss returns which corresponds with Salecker at all?

Any help whatsoever will be very well received indeed.

Regards Richard.

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Sorry, no other info on him in my database.

Matti

1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Thank you for looking Matti, it is much appreciated.

Regards Richard.

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Please do, I am very interested in this unit and thank you.
Regards
Tony K

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

About 25 years ago I ordered 1.(F)/123 NVMs from WASt for the June-July 1944 period and they didn't send me that one! The only one I received was for Ju 88 T-1 W.Nr. 430913, 4U+GH. It was shot down by Spitfires of No. 451 Sqn. on 8 June, south east of Chiusi. Crew:

Ofhr. Heinz-Arnold Scherpf (B) (died of wounds on 4 July)
Uffz. Heinz Rutter (FF)
Uffz. Paul Hoffmann (Bd) [sic]
Uffz. Manfred Malachow (Bf)

Re: 1./(F)123 Losses 1943
 

Thanks to everyone who contributed regarding the losses of 1./(F)123 during 1943. The information has been very useful but did not expect war to break out among fellow forum members!

Kind regards,

Melvin

www.aircrewremembrancesociety.co.uk