The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

https://www.ebay.de/itm/323936197372...wiyNpy8tfUiYSE


Second photo give a rather good view of the surrounding area and countryside.


With this view, can anyone finally provide an exact location for this crash?

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Backside says Goch......could be an indication? Of course this is the place where the picture was printed, but....perhaps a clue?

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Hi John

As the photo is stamped 5 August 1940 it does not look like this is the aircraft that force-landed at Laval on 17 September with Beitz and Heinze on board, which was one theory.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Good spot Tim & as we have always suspected

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

It is not the crash on 17th September. That crash is shown in my book for Red Kite, 'Messerschmitt Bf 110 units in the Battle of Britain - Part Two', page 112.


This one is the Western Campaign in the Spring of 1940. Whereas some photos of it give an approximate location, such as 'on the road between...' the exact location and date has never been nailed down, as a corresponding entry in the loss/damage returns cannot be traced for 5./ZG 1. The 17th September date was erroneously passed to me many years ago by a well-known researcher, which is now known to be incorrect.


Hope this clarifies things regarding this crash.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Can it be the Avesnes, Northern France, crash ?

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Hi John

Thanks for the clarification. I just checked my copy of your book and it is a great photo on page 112. I will read more closely!

May be totally irrelevant but here is the scan from the Flugbuch of Martin Heinze (Bordfunker) of 5./ZG 1 for a Notlandung in Belgium after attacks in the Netherlands on 13 May 1940. It may be a candidate but then again, perhaps the hard landing in the photos would not be described like that. Unfortunately Heinze does not record his aircraft code - I read the place as St Jean, Belgium but could be wrong. I have not been able to find any related record. May be a total red herring and if so apologies.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Hi Tim

he noted "zwischen Baeumen" so it`s very interesting.

Regards

Robert

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

There is a Mont-Saint-Jean in Belgium between Brussels & Charleroi, just south of Waterloo but attacking targets in Holland it's very doubtful he would end up as far to the south as that.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

But other logbooks show that landing at airfield in Bour took place at approx. 06.30 hrs (takeoffs between 04.30 and 04.45 hrs). One hour earlier. Perhaps they got lost and had flown too far to the south?

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

The airfield of Gelsenkirchen- Buer is east of Holland while Mont-Saint-Jean is completely to the south of Holland so I doubt that. Besides they would have been taken POW since the Germans weren't even near the Brussels/Waterloo area on the 13th. See attached situation map of the evening of the 13th. The German front line is in blue.

https://u3hjsw.dm.files.1drv.com/y4m...&cropmode=none

I think that we have to look at a completely different place for the "St Jean" in the Flugbuch.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Of course they did not land there. Logbook shows something like: St. Juan (misspelled).
Photos of this plane were captioned as: St. Vith, La Roche-en-Ardenne, Marche-en-Famenne and Dinant.

Regards

Robert

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

All of these 4 locations were occupied by the Germans on the 13th. Question remains if indeed Bf 110 2N+HN and the Schindler/Heinze Bf 110 is the same a/c.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Except this one,captioned "bei Born",could be in Holland?

The trees
 

Look at both trees on either side of the 110 (on this photograph). Look at their trunks: the bark is gone at a certain height over ground. On the left tree the damage to the bark is significant. This, together with the damage done to the leading edge of the right wing, shows that this aircraft was strill flying very low (probably very slowly) or had bounced from the ground to this height. Damaging trees - those Germans were barbarians indeed!

There is another photograph in France
 

PS:
I have been having a good print of another photograph (13 x 18 cm) of this same 110 for many years. It is now in one of many boxes full of photographs. Perhaps I'll be able to unearth it (but not today). The point is that, if my memory is OK, it is a photograph obtained by me from ECPA, now ECPAD, which is in the old fortress or fort at Ivry, directly beside Paris (SE of this city). At the time Paul Martin told me, "Not from the French Campaign" (10 May-24 June 1940) - it seems he was wrong. If from ECPA then it is one of many pictures of German origin held at Ivry. You can order prints there (even larger ones: 18 x 24 cm). Or possibly I found it at the French Air Force photo archive of SHAA, now SHD-Air, in the old castle at Vincennes SW of Paris, directly beside Paris too.
More on this soon… I hope.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Are you sure the second photo is from the same a/c? The damage to the port wing is more substantial then I have seen on photos of 2N+HN (see red arrows).

Also, there is a road sign visible close to the a/c (see red circle). Does anyone has a better photo of this road sign? It might hold the name of a village.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

I'll post a full scan up here when the photo arrives...

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

The reverse of another photo, robert, says 'straße / Amiens'...

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

What is also interesting is that the normal Flugbuch entries are written by one person, but the entry for 'zwischen Baeumen' is written by a different person - Heinze perhaps, recording the incident?


I think this pretty much nails the date as 13th May 1940.


Now on to the exact location...

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Hi John,

Amiens is way off but I think only 1 photo was captioned as "Amiens"?

Regards

Robert

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Hi Robert,
This is the photo, and reverse, which references, not Amiens, but the Amiens road - the road to Amiens. I don't know how long that road is, so I cannot add more.
https://i.imgur.com/swTIOtB.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/OxbEelH.jpg


You probably know this photo.
From the photo, it seems clear that the starboard wing leading edge whacked into the side of the tree and then the rest of the Bf 110 somehow swung round to end up with both wheels in the ditch. OR, it has been moved to PUT both wheels in the ditch after the collision in order to make recovery easier. I just don't know, but the tree on the left of the photo had been hit side-on, not front-on from the damage shown on it...
EDIT: Right click on each photo and then select 'view image' to see them in a smaller size that will fit your screen.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

2 and 3 pic note that i think it is bus stop. Look at the poles. So must be a secondary road leading to/from Amiens. ( D road secondary road) because of the farmland. And a little town quite nearby

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

So we go back to my first suggestion: The loss of 27/5/1940 (Bei Avesnes) and the road from Avesnes to Amiens. The A26 didn't exist, hence the E44 via Guise.
The Red/white posts being road markers used to signal the road during snowy weather.
...

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Why if marking road are the poles road behind trees? Notice board.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/data:i...AASUVORK5CYII=.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Take a look at post #7 on page 1. The Flugbuch scans. The right-hand side scan. The entry says 'zwischen baümen', which is exactly what can be seen in the numerous photos of this crash...

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

And? Is there any contradiction ?

Now, if you think it's on a road to Amiens in Belgium ... Good luck! :)

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Any contradiction to what? How many Bf 110s ploughed into trees?



And I didn't say it was definitely on the road to Amiens, I pointed out that that was what was written on the reverse of one of the photos. As has been pointed out in this thread, several locations have been alluded to on the reverse of photos of this crash.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

To pick up on what Robert says above. I went into maps for La Roche -en-Ardennes and found this:
https://i.imgur.com/2jH7N5V.jpg

The 'Bois' adjacent to La Roche-en-Ardenne is titled 'Bois de Saint-Jean'.


This would appear to tally with 'La Roche-en-Ardenne' on the reverse of a photo, and 'St. Juan' in the Flugbuch (an understandable spelling error given his unfamiliarity with name places in the area).

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Hi,

on 27.5.40 two missions were flown by II./ZG1 from Charleville-Mezieres to Dunkirk so I don`t see any link to Amiens.
John I think you have nailed it down.

Regards

Robert

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Robert,

I now believe the following details are correct for this crash:
13th May 1940
Bf 110 C-1
2N+HN
W. Nr. 2837
Uffz. Schindler (Pilot)
Ogefr. Heinze (Bordfunker)
Force-landed and crashed into trees on edge of field near La Roche-en-Ardenne. Damage %age not known.
Both crew survived.


Thanks for your help in working this one out.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

To all those involved, congratulations for the amazing thread!

Some 20-25 years ago, this would be almost impossible. Computers, Internet and Forums like this one do give the opportunity to discover and match events of 79 years ago...

John Vasco, I had some of your books and your work on this thread and on the books I have read is amazing. Keep going!

Again, an amazing thread and piece of History!

A.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

sorry (correction): "....I have some of your books..."

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Clint,
It's been something of a long haul trying to identify date and place, but with the Flugbuch pages on page 1 of this thread, coupled with writing on the reverse of a photo, I think we have got there. There was also, as you point out, the in-depth consideration over quite a period of time regarding the W. Nr. also. I think we can all take satisfaction from an ultimate job well done.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

I agree. Nice teamwork everyone!

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

I have a question: why mods deleted an important statement of Clint Mitchell?

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

It was a private dispute between one member and another which the poster was asked to pursue through private means. Unfortunately he appeared unreceptive to this request.

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Photos now received. Here's a 1200 dpi scan of the distance shot:
https://i.imgur.com/ADgaEva.jpg

Re: The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...
 

Few trees from both sides of the road (compared to other photos of this aircraft)