Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Dear friends,

Could anybody tell me if Ivan Kozhedub really obtained 62 confirmed victories? What does of truth exist in these victories?
Hugs to all.
E. Brettas

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

63 credited victories but who knows what actually he had achieved.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Whats surprising about Kozhedub's claims is that they do not include any shares. Why is that? Shares seem to have been very much the norm amongst Soviet pilots. Even Aleksandr Pokryshkin had 6 shares in his total of 59.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Jim, I do not know the accuracy of Kozhedub's vicotories claims, but there was indeed an explains for his "lack of share vicotories", it was said that he "never bother about the share vicotories", he only claimed those shot down entirely by himeself, thoes shared he simply let others get the credit.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

In the 2nd part og GPW there was very rare practice when shared victories were credited to Soviet pilots. Appr. in 1943 Air Commanding 'priorities' were changed from 'collective' to 'individual', so the bulk of air victories claimed in 1943-45 were recorded as individual. Ivan Kozhedub had started his combat career in March 1943 and claimed 1st victory on 6 July 1943... The bulk of shared air victories was recorded in 1941-42.

PS. Pokryshkin's total, according documental data, was 46 individual + 6 shared air victories.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Hi,

according soviet sources(documents as records from regiment, divisions etc) Kozhedub shot down 62(or 63) german planes. On the other hand the modern russian researchers claimst, that e.g. Pokryshkin shot down some 44 planes and not 59+ as officialy known. It is only the state of the documents from russian military archivs. The other question how many german planes realy was downed.
In the second part of GPW it is common trend that the shared victory not often filed by soviet pilots. The reason for this is the soviet granting system of ordens or similars. The personally claims has more weight. Due the Kozhedub start his carrier in the second half of 1943, he did not have any shared victories. The other reason in his case, that from the summer 1944 he serve in 176 GIAP, one of two soviet 100% hunter figther regiments. In this regiments the pilots did not like the shared victories( especially in the second part of GPW)

Best regards

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Hi,

Many German Aces had victories that were never confirmed. In the case of Ivan N. Kozhedub all their victories 62 or 63 were confirmed? Or to this total the victories are confirmed and no confirmed?
E. Brettas

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

In Soviet Aviation not confirmed kills were not included in pilot's personal data and not mentioned in any 'personal' documents at all (contrary to 'probably destroyed' and 'damaged' for the Allies), but in unit's operative documents (Regiment's or Division's Daily Combat Reports etc) only. There was 1 cathegory only - 'SHOT DOWN' for the Soviet aces. So, all 63 Kozhedub's claims are confirmed.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Hi OWL-99,

Could you tell me how these victories were confirmed by the Soviets? Were they reliable, or was there a lot of propaganda in this?
E. Brettas

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

There was a system of confirmation, but it's too long to write about it here... There was an overclaiming too, of course - like in any other Air Force.:)

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

There was some debate about Kozhedub's claim to have shot down a Me-262 on the www.forum.sukhoi.ru . It seems the claim started out as two Bf-109's and was changed later.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Not 2 but 1 Bf-109. Note: remarque 'with jet engine' was made in combat report.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

I think you might refer to two separate incidents :


Early January 1945 : A pair of 176 GvIAP La-7s (Mayor Kumanichkin and Polkovnik Chupikov) equipped with guncams encounter 2 Me-109 carrying something under fuselage and Chupikov attacks them, but the Germans manage to outrun the La-7s and, after examination of guncam films, ingeneer Zaritskiy consider the centerline carriages (first thought to have been bombs) to be something like a Jet booster.

19/02/1945 : Kojedub claims Me-262 (sometimes said to be that of Uffz Kurt Lange from 1./KG(J)54)


As for Kojedub's score, AFAIK, he officially had 62 vicotries as followed :

06/07/1943 :1 Ju-87
07/07 1 Ju-87
08/07 1 Ju-88
09/07 2 Bf-109G
09/08 1 Bf-109G
14/08 2 Bf-109G
16/08 1 Ju-87
22/08 1 FW-190
09/09 1 Bf-109G
30/09 1 Ju-87
01/10 2 Ju-87
02/10 3 Ju-87
05/10 2 Bf-109G
06/10 1 Bf-109G
10/10 1 Bf-109G
12/10 2 Ju-87 + 1 Bf-109G
29/10 1 He-111 + 1 Ju-87
16/01/1944 1 Bf-109G
30/01 1 Ju-87 + 1 Bf-109G
14/03 1 Ju-87
21/03 1 Ju-87
11/04 1 Bf-109G
19/04 1 He-111
28/04 1 Ju-87
29/04 2 Hs-129
03/05 1 Ju-87
01/06 1 FW-190
02/06 1 Hs-129
03/06 3 FW-190
07/06 1 Bf-109G
22/09 2 FW-190
25/09 1 FW-190
16/01/1945 1 FW-190
10/02 1 FW-190
12/02 3 FW-190
19/02 1 Me-262
11/03 1 FW-190
18/03 2 FW-190
22/03 2 FW-190
23/03 1 FW-190
17/04 2 FW-190

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Nope, on 19.02.1945, according to 176 GIAP Combat Report, Kozhedub claimed 1 'Me-109 with jet engine'. 'Me-262' appeared more later, after the war end, instead of that.;)

Kozhedub's total is 63: on 11.04.1944 in Roumania he claimed the 'PZL-24', that was confirmed (and pilot recieved money for the victory), but later for unknown reasons that kill was 'lost' in documents...

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

That was perhaps because no 'kill' was actually scored.
That day, not only no obsolete P.Z.L. fighter was lost, but any Rumanian warplane wasn't written off either.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

and how about his two "kills" for 2 P-51s of USAAF

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

If Kozhedub shot down a Me 262 on 19/02/45, it is unlikely that the victim was Uffz Kurt Lange from 1./KG(J)54 because it seems that Lange crashed more than couple hundred kilometres SW of the area of Kozhedub's claim. Maybe a Me 262 from another unit.
Personally I doubt that Kozhedub shot down 62 enemy a/c, as I doubt that Hartmann got 352, Bong 40 or Pattle 40 or 50 or what ever or Juutilainen 92 or 93. Overclaiming happened and IMHO it is even possible that in reality the abovementioned pilots were not the top scorers of their nations. But IMHO they all were skillful fighters.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Where was the location that Kozhedub shot down the 2 FW-190's on 22Mar45? His wingman, D.S. Titornko shot down 1 FW-190. Also A.S. Kumanichkin and his wingman, V.A. Gromakovskii of 176 GIAP shot down one FW-190 each in the area.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

In Mikhail Bykov's revised book of Soviet Aces there is a correction for the date of the 19Feb45 to the 17Feb45 with the location of east of Alto-Fridlyand( Friedland?). In the comments it has "In the operational documents it is recorded as "Me-109" with a reactive motor, it is subsequently substitued to "Me-262" with the date of the battle is erroneously indicated as the 19 February 1945."

I read the review for his auto-bio on a Russian website which it mentions that he did shoot down two P-51's over Berlin that attacked him but no date was mentioned. Also nothing listed in Bykov's book.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

This fight with P-51 is very interesting, if this real happen. If I can remember good, few decades ago I have read his story about downing of Me 262 and it look like that this was done by trick. Take this with reserve as well I read this in some Yugoslav publication, long time ago.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

It seems that the P-51 encounter discussion took place here before. http://forum.12oclock.net/showthread.php?t-5239.

Also the Bf-109 claimed on 09July43 according to Christer Bergstroms book "Kursk the air battle" matchs Guenther Rall's logbook for the 09Jul43 at 07:30 of being shot down in the Novoselovka area.

Is there any losses on the 17Feb45 for a Me-262 in the area of his claim?

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

Sorry about it not coming up here. If you go to wikipedia using his name it has the link also the link to the alledged gun camera footage.

Re: Ivan N. Kozhedub, 62 victories?
 

All right- thank you :)