The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

this list shows which ace was the first to reach a certain score. Enjoy !

Score / ace / date
5 Adolphe Pégoud 03.04.15
6 Eugène Gilbert 17.06.15
7 Lanoe Hawker 07.09.15
8-13 Oswald Boelcke 12.01.16-21.03.16
14 Max Immelmann 23.04.16
15-29 Oswald Boelcke 01.05.16-27.09.16
30-31 Albert Ball 30.09.16
32-40 Oswald Boelcke 10.10.16-26.10.16
41-80 Manfred von Richthofen 13.04.17-20.04.18

81-115 Werner Mölders 06.05.41-15.07.41
116-150 Gordon Gollob 07.08.42-29.08.42
151-202 Hermann Graf 05.09.42-26.09.42
203-205 Hans Philipp 17.03.43-16.05.43
206-255 Walter Nowotny 14.09.43-12.11.43
256-275 Günther Rall 12.03.44-12.05.44
276-352 Erich Hartmann 20.08.44-08.05.45

Michael

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Hi Michael

Philipp had quite a few unconfirmed in his total, so in reality Nowotny led 203-255.
My friend Bernd Barbas questioned Rall about his "275th" not being on the mikrofilms, but all others were. He explained that he was wounded after this one and just didn't complete the paperwork, thus unconfirmed, though we know it fell. I suspect that Rall was one of the few honest guys in the "200" club. So Rall 256-274.

Molders also had a few unconfirmed, as I suspect Gollob.

Berkhorn just misses out, being on 272 when Rall on 274.

Sad thing is that is reality Rall would have been first to 200 and 250. Perhaps Marseilles first to 150(by memory)

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Hello Johannes,

if my memory serves me well, Hans Philipp's 203rd kill was recognized in the Wehrmachtsbericht from 18Mar1943. But I cannot relocate the text.

Michael

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

I've found an interesting discussion about the most successful living ace at given periods of time. This is worth a look:
http://forum.balsi.de/index.php?topic=6981.0

Cheers,

Michael

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Good afternoon Gentlmen,

three late first scores by Erich Hartmann are still unclear to me:
346 (??.03.1945): what was the exact date ?
347 (16.03.1945): what did he shoot down ?
352 (08.05.1945): did he fly a Bf109G or a Bf109K ?

Michael

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

On May 8, 1945 Hartmann did not shoot down anything. Not sure about the model he flew though.
Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Xavier Méal wrote in 2015 quite clearly, that it was a Bf109K and the wording sounds as if Hartmann himself said that some time before (in an interview?)

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Maybe. Anyways, the only planes that Hartmann destroyed on May 8, 1945 were the final Bf 109s of his unit. After landing he claimed his final 'victory' over a never existing Yak-9 and destroyed the remaining Bf 109s with his cannon on the ground in order to avoid Soviet capture of them.
Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Any idea what he believed to have shot down on 16.March?
Cheers,
Michael

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

I do not know.
Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

It is the only one of the 352 with no suggesstion for the type.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Could be. But it is irrelevant, since most of Erich Hartmann's claims -even where the AC types are specified- are unreliable anyways.
Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

I'm not convinced that that can be said.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

That's OK, but I am. I did enough research to see how poor Hartmann's tally is. His claiming reliability is way under 30%. The math is easy to apply this to his 352. I was actually shocked to see his real performance while writing the book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Verified-Vi...6&unfiltered=1

What really bugs me is that because of Hartmann's false and inflated record, the truly most successful fighter ace of all times (which also has to be a German pilot) 78 years after the war still did not get the recognition he deserves...

Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Gabor's book is very convincing, well-researched, well-written, and highly recommended.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

But what is relevance of this issue to the topic of this thread and the questions I asked therein?

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Well, you asked about an unknown AC type. I said I do not know but it is ultimately irrelevant, because in this case even the known AC types are unreliable.
Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

For some forum members overclaiming is the answer to almost everything they are interested in.
To me it's the answer to almost nothing that I'm interested in.
Although I can believe that this topic can be fun, I also believe that loss lists are more incomplete that kill lists.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

'I also believe that loss lists are more incomplete that kill lists.'

This can be true for the German side, but not the Soviet (1944-1945). If you disagree it simply means that you are not familiar with the Soviet AF records and their massive cross-reference system which are preserved and stored at TsAMO RF. But that's OK.

Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Hello Gabor,

I believe that experts like you have dug up a vast Soviet data volume which is as praiseworthy as keeping an overview with it all the time. But I have an additional worry: the Soviets like all Communists were prone to home-tailor much of their history documentation, especially when incidents had to do with death. Remember the death of the Czar, the death of Lenin, the Holodomor, the countless identical stories of aces shooting an enemy down and then ramming another on their last fatal mission, the unclear Red Army death toll of WW2, and the death of Stalin.

Still half a week to work...looking forward to the weekend.
Is airwar author your main profession ?

Michael

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Fair questions, but I think we addressed most (if not all) of these in the book. Loss reports are much more reliable than claims, simply because if they were not reported, they got no re-supply from the factories and aviation schools. As simple as that. Especially the Soviets who had a full dept. in the Air Armies to do the paperwork of planes and plane engines +/-, writing re-supply orders. You would be blown by their details. Same numbers cross-referenced in regiment-, division-, air army levels - no room for hiding anything. Again: in 1944-45. Not to mention that at least in 1944-45 the Soviets could preserve all of their records as opposed to the Germans, whose offices burned down with all of their records in RAF night attacks where tons, I mean tons of 'victories' were approved afterwards without any re-investigation!!!! Simply because it was impossible to re-investigate. So these records afterwards worth next to NOTHING to me!!! All claims got approved in the 2nd turn, simply because they lost most of the original papers in RAF bombardments. Read the book if you want to know how 'precise' this German verification system was, which, by the way changed several times... On the other hand I do not trust the Soviet victory claims either. The only piece of information that I can take seriously from them is the name of the claimer and the fact that he (and his unit) flew there and then and they met some enemy planes. That's it. I do not care about the rest. Especially because the Soviets could not differentiate the Bf 109s and the Fw 190s in the air, especially in the dark fall/winter months in poor visibility conditions. So imagine the mess in their claims.... Germans too. The loss records are different. Those are super precise. For all nations I trust their own loss reports and ignore their claims for these very reasons. We can play with claims, we can make all kinds of statistics, but according to the wise saying: 'From sh.t you cannot build a castle.' In 1945 the Germans burned several tons of their own military records in order to avoid their capture! No wonder that their records are so incomplete. Funny, but many German records were saved by the Soviets who preserved them and they are also kept in TsAMO RF. :) Long story.... And no, this is just my -lifelong- hobby. :) Cheers,

Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Comparing scores and correlating claims-vs-losses are two legitimate subtopics of airwar enthusiasm. It's unbalanced to label the former as "shit" just because you like the latter better.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Comparing scores is a perfectly legitimate passtime as long as you realise that roughly half of what you are comparing is unicorn droppings and does not bear any relation to reality. You do not have to invoke dishonnesty, pilot error, misunderstanding and wishful thinking is enough.

Who is better. Pilot 1 who claimed and was awarded 100 victories and there is good evidence actually shot down at least 70 or Pilot 2 who claimed 120, but we can only find 60 aircraft losses that match?

You seem to be saying that the aces are reliable and that there are whole squadrons of aircraft that were lost, but no-one wanted to replace them because they were scared to tell the boss.

Which is more likely?

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

No, I'm saying that the arrogance of individuals who denigrate those who like comparing scores is based on the misapprehension that loss lists are complete.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Oh do tell us how complete or incomplete loss listings are on the basis of painstaking, meticulous Googling and trawling the appendices in the back of Osprey books...

Perhaps the "denigration" comes from the fact that researching casualties comes from an interest in remembrance whereas comparing "scores" listed completely and utterly at face value reflects an interest that seems rather close to glorification...?

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Good evening,

for those who are interested in the confirmation-verification-issue it might be noteworthy that the first guy who scored 5 kills verified by losses was credited with only 4 confirmed, thereby missing the distinction of becoming the first ace of them all: Eugène Gilbert.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

My learned friend has obviously misunderstood the prosecution case.

Our contention is that claims are unreliable, something which your last submission amply demonstrates.

How did you find this particular case was an underclaim?

Loss records

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

For correlating the claims with the losses you need to know
the losses
and the claims.
I'm interested in the claims but mostly in what aircraft a pilot was flying when making the claims.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Knusel, just because you do not think that the Soviet loss lists are complete and much more reliable than claims lists it is still true. For Hungary we obtained all (I mean: ALL!) Soviet loss records which created a unique and unprecedented situation. This is how we could write the book and how we can confidently prove/disprove ANY Axis claims over the country. If you never take the effort to do some real and authentic military research apart from reading books, articles and websites, certainly your loss lists will never ever be complete. In order to get the ultimate result, you must go to the ultimate sources, namely the TsAMO RF archives where the Soviet aircraft loss records are stored. Our museum did this before this recent tragic war and we got all loss records for Hungary from all Soviet air units that fought over the country in 1944-1945. From consecutive war diaries the very same losses cross-referenced at regiment-, division- and air army-levels, combat, as well as non-combat losses including accidents, wear and tear write offs - everything. By the way, have you ever become dirty by digging out aircraft wrecks from forests or fields or swamps in order to compare them to the loss documentation and return the missing aircrews to their late families? Well, we have, and probably needless to say, but every time when a Soviet aircraft was recovered, its numbers matched the corresponding loss report! So please do not tell me that they cannot be trusted, or they are incomplete, because this is only your personal and unverified opinion. Since WWII these records help to identify the remains of the missing and recovered Soviet aircrews. I can say this after going through thousands of such pages. Some mechanical reports are so detailed that they even report which cylinder, or cylinder-row was repaired within a certain aircraft engine! And these are solid facts, not just assumptions, or false, yet popular legends that some biased people do not want to give up. See a small variety of records I was talking about:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1949974...77720307385993

Certainly you can do whatever you want, including claiming statistics, but keep in mind that it will not change the truth – which is very often not reflected by the claims.
Cheers,
Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Your posts and your book show the depth of your research and the completeness of the records extremely well, Gabor. We are lucky to have you here.

You amply demonstrate that Ace Pilots did not fly in a vacuum. There were other human beings in the aircraft that make up their victories and overclaiming was indeed a factor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Thank you Nick, I just try to find out what really happened in the past with all available evidences. That's all.
Cheers,
Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

In a few cases the dates are missing which makes it harder to verify a claim and even harder to negate it.
For example Hartmann's #347.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

If the date is missing, it is equally difficult to prove, or disprove a claim, - neither is harder than the other. However, there are visible tendencies for each pilot.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Sometimes also the claimed aircraft type is unknown, for example Hartmann's #346.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Agree.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

Hartmann claimed a large number of Lavochkin fighters but a low number of Yakovlev fighters. I suspect he misidentified many Yakovlev's as LaGG-3's. They looked similar but the former were much more numerous in the second half of the war than the latter.

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

In the final months of 1944 Hartmann fought with air units of the Soviet 5th Air Army (and perhaps the 17th Air Army). By the end of 1944 the 5 VA suffered heavy losses in their battles for Debrecen and Budapest, while the 17 VA was more or less intact, advancing in Yugoslavia and later in Southern-Hungary.

On January 1, 1945 the fighter forces of the 5 VA had:

83 Yak-1
109 Yak-9
16 Yak-3
130 La-5
20 La-7

(Book: 'Verified Victories', p.25)

The 17 VA had:

117 Yak-1
13 Yak-7
147 Yak-9
58 Yak-3
273 La-5
1 La-7

(Book: 'Verified Victories', p.27)

Gabor

Re: The first ace to reach a certain score
 

When Hartmann arrived at the front the short heyday of the LaGG-3 was over. But the Germans kept on identifying similarly-looking opponents as such. It's like Manfred von Richthofen & Co who named lattice-tail planes "Vickers" when certainly no Vickers F.B.5 planes were sent up anymore.