US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Somewhat unclear but interesting shot of a US fighter supposedly shot down over Cologne in late 1943. Caption is: "US fighter plane shot down by one of our fighter pilots in the area of Cologne. Date late 1943."

The picture is from the Facebook of Michael Balss.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1533...?ref=bookmarks

The clearly visible "3" could indicate that it is a P-47D from the 35 FG, 22 FS whose unit code was "3T" . If it from the 36th FG, the date is wrong as the 36th FG did not start operations until May 1944. Any thoughts?

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

The child on the right isn't really dressed for winter, so spring/summer 1944 more likely...


Regards,


Leendert

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

No, this doesn't look like the area of Cologne. Could it be Gabreski's ship near Mendig after July 20th, 1944 ?.

Horst Weber

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

If this photo was after June 6 1944 would there not be D Day stripes?

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

I don't know, but on May 21,1944 the 36th FG lost three P-47Ds in Belgium. The s/n are 42-25886,42-25874,and 42-25879. Two pilots KiA, one evaded.The bulk of the 36th casualties were after D-day, but I agree w/ John, that if this was after D-Day it would have stripes. That is, if it is a 36FG 22FS casualty?

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Hello,
22nd FS had nine(9) accidents in 1943. All were in the USA.
In 1944 they had sixteen(16) MACR's.
In 1945 they also had sixteen(16) MACR's.
Must be "3T" if 9th AAF as all the other Squadrons with code starting with "3" were Troop Carrier Squadrons.

Therefore if Germany then MACR's were -

441106 - 42-26009 - 10281.
441203 - 42-28818 - 11439.
441210 - 44-19923 - 10860.
441231 - 42-26010 - 11492.

450122 - 44-20621 - 11957.
450208 - 44-20223 - 12272.
450210 - 42-75248 - 12300.
450213 - 42-74657 - 12302.
450213 - 42-26699 - 12306.
450223 - 42-25871 - 12643.
450225 - 42-28469 - 12731.
450310 - 44-33138 - 12976.
450310 - 44-33158 - 12977.
450319 - 44-33016 - 13178.
450321 - 44-33260 - 13218.
450409 - 4419853 - 14382.
450419 - 42-25956 - 14383.
450419 - 42-26578 - 14384.
450601 - 42-8497 - 14560.

Alex

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

I would hope that Short_Stuff visits the site soon. He is a member and would think he can provide this info.

Tony

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

The 3T code indicates 36th Fighter Group, as Alex said. The 36th did not start operations until about May 1944. The fact that there are no D-Day stripes means it must be prior to 6th June, so the time scale for this is extremely short. I have only three (non UK) losses for them within that period, and all three were in France.
If I were a gambler, my money would go on 42-25879 3T-U flown by John Balcunas and lost on 21st May in the area of St Germain de Coulamer, near Metz. He evaded. (E&E report # 0801) and MACR 5009.
Peter

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

There were four 36th Fighter Group losses in May of 1944, all from the 22nd Fighter Squadron. Three went down on May 21 and one on May 27. Details of each follow, with information taken from group and squadron records, Balcunas' escape and evasion report and MACRs. None of the losses, barring Church who no one saw crash, seem to fit a belly-landing as the photo shows, unless the two which were reported as "spinning in" landed as shown. Balcunas bailed out so again, not sure his ship would have landed as indicated. BUT, that is just my thought and hopefully someone can provide exact details (serial number) of 3T-U. First, the May 21 pilots:
42-25879 with Lt. John Balcunas evading; he stated he was attacking a train and was hit by fire from anti-aircraft weapons on the train. he bailed out near St. Germain de Coulamer.
42-25874 with Lt. John M. Church KIA; he was last seen in bad weather and crashed west of Haudainville.
42-25886 with Maj. Richard T. Deabler being KIA; he flew through a train explosion and was reported to have spun-in near Longwy.
May 27:
Lt. Frank Fazekas was KIA in 42-75525. He was reported to have "done a tight spiral into the ground" near Ledezeele. The pilot who saw him surmised possible oxygen trouble but that was just his guess.

Kent

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

One slight correction--Fazekas crashed near Lederzeele, I left out the "r" in the previous post.

Kent

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

I dare not to say what P-47 is involved here, but if a little remark is permitted re Peter's post: St. Germain-de-Coulamer is not near Metz in the east of France, but 30 km SE of Alençon or, from a different angle, 45 km NW of Le Mans, so in the west.


Forum readers familiar with the Mayenne or River Sarthe region may recognize the landscape?



Regards,


Leendert

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Regarding Balcunas, his plane crashed near St. Germain de Coulamer which is some 26 km SW of Alencon or maybe 35 km NW of Le Mans, i.e. not near Metz. Ooops, ..... Looks like Leendert beat me to this.

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Hello,

For me, it's a P-47 "Bubbletop", not a "Razorback".

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Hello Didier
I would agree with you.
All the photos in various books/magazines show the camouflaged razorback's but all those that show the bubbletop are in natural metal finish.
Some photos captioned June 44 have no invasion stripes, so did the Group take no part until post D-day period ?
Alex

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Hello guys.

Some interesting aspects on the Picture showed here.

1- The airplane seems to have flattened out before crashing, like a flat spinning or something like that, from very low altitude. This is my humble opinion...the weather, as it was put here, seems rather on the Summer and the grass seems dry, very dry. Perhaps this dryness does not give us an idea of the "way" the airplane skidded out on the belly landing trial...or, as I am assuming (interpreting), it may have crashed in a vertical way, like a flat spin at low altitude (or recovering from a spin at low altitude). One can see NO tracks on the grass from the huge mass of the P-47, where it may have skidded, literally "scrapping" the soil, etc...So, in my humble opinion, the crash is rather co-related to some kind of vertical spinning (flat) or vertical drop movement.

2- The Brazilian Air Force (FAB) suffered at least one fatal crash of an earlier D-27 model (actually P-47D-27-RE Thunderbolt s/n 42-26774), in Italy. The pilot was training before combat and put some high G after a dive, whilst turning. The commands were blocked and he went inverted. The pilot tried to bail out, but at low level, the chute never opened. This happened on the 7th November 1944, and 2nd/Lt Oldegard Olsen Sapucaia (BO-34) was killed. Next day, the 1st Brazilian Fighter Group (attached to the 350th FG) received a technical bulletin (T.O) informing that all machined were grounded and needed to add a VERTICAL DORSAL FIN to the fuselage (nearby to the tail). The Republic company found that with some speeds, the “hard” use of ailerons and elevators could induce the blocking of commands and put the machine inverted, entering an inverted spin. Well, my humble guess is that Lt. Frank Fazekas crash fits better to the image…"done a tight spiral into the ground" near Lederzeele. But this is only a guess. One may need to check how many accidents due to “blocking of controls” happened before that Technical Order from the Republic Company or within 22nd Fighter Squadron.

Most humbly yours,
Adriano Silva Baumgartner, ASV 00.344

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

There were camouflaged bubble tops in the 9th Air Force, and for one example, it comes from the 22nd Fighter Squadron. P-47D-26-RA, serial 42-28404 was coded 3T-C "Sex Express". It was overall o.d. on the upper surfaces and natural metal on the lower. There were also examples also from the 365th, 366th, and 367th I can find photos for fairly quickly. Yes, the 36th was active priot to the invasion, so the absence of invasion stripes means it either one of the losses in May of 1944 or possibly a later loss after the stripes were pretty much removed. My hunch, and that is all it is, is this is a May loss.
Back to which pre-D-Day pilots and cause of the crashes, please refer to the four MACRs; two pilots were seen to spin-in, one bailed out and one was listed as simply crashing. If as mentioned above it appears the plane spun in, then possibly Deabler or Fazekas are possible. But again, without a serial to see, who knows.

Kent

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Lt. Frank Fazekas in 42-75525 is the only one of the May loses that Kent has posted that comes OD/Neutral grey from the factory. The other three serials listed are in the series of Natural metal P-47D's .
Look at Didier's P-47 web sight I can recognize many of the other P-47 around these serial numbers.

Rick

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Crashed in fact at Gougnies (Belgium).

ClinA-78

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

More info (mostly in French, but also US reports) about 42-25886 here: http://m.marloie.wikeo.be/richard-t-deabler.html


Regards,


Leendert

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Looking at the code letter on the plane it appears there have been two suggestions. U-3T or C-3T, with the U or C to the left of the star and the 3T to the right of the star. It is possible the bottom of the letter is totally in shadow, which is why you don't see it. If the letter is a C, something seems to have cut through the top of the C. If the letter is U, then something seems to have cut through the right side of the letter. I believe there is an access panel (to the tail wheel strut) located about where the right side of the "U" is missing. If that panel has come off, would that leave it looking something like what we see? (There is a similar access panel on the other side of the plane.)

I have tried to find a good closeup photo on the various P-47 walkarounds on the web to see if there is a photo showing the panel and the exact location, but have not had any luck locating one yet.

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

I posted on the 36th FG Facebook page to see if anyone knows. Hope that is ok.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/48476868585/

Rick

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

Most likely not Lt. Frank Fazekas after reading this ,https://www.cbsnews.com/news/frank-f...returned-home/
Seems like the plane went in nose first .
Found in the 36th FG Facebook sight.

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

The visible damage indicates that it was a very hard landing, so it could be one of the two MIA/KIA from May 21 1944.

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

This plane can’t be Frank Fazekas’. I just recently attended his funeral at Arlington National Cemetery after his remains were identified at a crash site on a farm in northern France. His plane was positively identified from multiple serial numbers found on the wreckage that was excavated from a deep impact crater by a team of archeologists from the University of Wisconsin. Apparently he went in nearly vertically, creating a very deep crater that was covered over by the farmer whose beet field Fazekas crashed in. The link is to a great account of the effort to unearth the plane and return the pilots remains to the US for burial.


https://news.wisc.edu/uw-search-team...ed-wwii-plane/

Re: US Fighter shot down-P-47D?
 

I can definitively confirm that the photo of the P-47 in the original post was NOT that of Lt. Fazekas.
I was on the team that excavated the site with the University of Wisconsin in partnership with DPAA.

I can post some links to some lectures describing the case, if of any interest.

Ryan