identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Legal disclaimer:
In accordance with the Decision of the TGI of Auch, in its judgment rendered on September 5, 2001, case Pierre Clostermann against S.A.R.L. Aeroeditions (Publication Director C.J. Ehrengardt), since the approved victories are not legally "revisable", the number of individual victories will be deemed fair and unalterable.

Presentation :

On this new thread, we will compare the claims of the Normandie-Niemen pilots and the actual losses of the Luftwaffe. It is therefore a work of identification and not of approval, a task completed since 1945 with the list drawn up by the Hunting Inspectorate.
This work is not intended to denigrate the record of the Normandie-Niemen pilots, nor that of the Soviets who fought jointly.
Our approach is simple, unambiguous and scientific, it consists of comparing the German losses in the Bundesarchives of Koblenz to the Soviet homologations taken up by the French air force.

This work has already been carried out, for those who can read between the lines, by JC Ehrengardt in the mid-1980s, for the writing of his work "Normandie-Niemen" published in 1989. The victories identified are accompanied by the corresponding losses for the Lutfwaffe , the first mention of this type appeared on July 14, 1943. Thanks to progress in cartographic studies made possible by the digitization and online posting of maps from the period, it is now possible to refine research. Some will be invalidated, others omitted due to the non-localization at the time of a toponym or the correction of a bad transcription of a Russian toponym having already undergone transliteration into German will be added.

This study has a limit, if during an air combat 10 pilots claim 10 victories, the Germans only losing 5 planes, it is scientifically impossible to determine which of the pilots really won victories. This is why this work will only draw conclusions on the total victory and not on individual results.

Victories will be classified into:
Scientifically Identified Victory. In this case the destruction of the downed enemy aircraft was found in the Bundesarchives: SIV.
Aircraft-Identified - Victory Not Scientifically Confirmed: AI-VNSC. The plane was identified, but only damaged.
Non-Scientifically Identified Victory: NSIV. In this case, the destruction of the downed enemy plane was not found in the Bundesarchives.
This can be linked either:
- loss of the report or incorrect classification in the archives.
- the fact that the damage to the aircraft did not lead to its unavailability for repair.

Let's start, Thanks forward for any help and corrections.


1) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Preziosi. NSIV.
2) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
No German losses reported today
3) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
4) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Mahé. NSIV.
5) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Derville/Poznanski/Bizien. NSIV
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one plane: the FW-190 A44 n° 1994 of 10./J.G.51 was 80% damaged following a forced landing following an engine failure 8 km to the N of Smolensk. (Pl. Qu. 25114), (source: BArch. RL 2-III/1188, p. 198, Lw. Kdo Ost n°143).
6) 02/05/1943: Sofonovo: HS-126 - Lefèvre.NSIV
7) 03/05/1943: Mouliatino: Bf-109 - Lefèvre NSIV
8) 03/05/1943: Spas-Demensk: Hs-126 -Littolff - Castelain - Durand. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one Bf-109: Bf109 G4 n° 5759 of Nahaufkl.Gr.4 was 80% destroyed following a rupture of the landing gear on the airfield from Pankowo (Orel). This damage may have been caused following an aerial combat, so there is a possibility that he was the victim of Marcel Lefèvre. (source BArch RL 2-III/1189, p. 344, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°140).
9) 15/05/1943: Mouliation: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
10. 15/06/1943: Mariuka: FW-189 - Littolff - Castelain. NSIV.
11. 15/06/1943: Brusna - Makovaya: FW-189 of the N.A.Gr. 15- Albert - Preziosi. AI-VNSC - Aircraft slightly damaged.
This day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6) has a damaged FW-189: FW-189 A1 n° 0047 of N.A.Gr.15 is 10% damaged following an aerial combat in the vicinity of Schisdra (Al: Schisdra - Ang : Zhisdra - Fr: Jizdra - Ru: Жиздра), the radio gunner, Uffz Matthias Müller is killed. (source: BArch RL 2-III/1180, p. 185, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°190).
12. 23/06/1943: Bouda: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV
13. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Littolff. NSIV
14. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Castelain.NSIV
15. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Durand. NSIV
That day; the Luftwaffe does not lose any BF-110 in the Resseta valley, which is in agreement with the fact that the French operated that day in the Vytebet's' valley. In the latter, only one Messerschmitt Bf-110 (Bf 110 G-2,(S9+BA), W.Nr. 6295) was shot down at Ulianovo, 18 km further south. (major Vyazovik 172nd IAP) and another (Bf 110 G2 - n°6252) was damaged in the same sectors (Lt. Efimov 198th ShAP).
16. 14/07/1943: Yagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Albert. SIV.
Not approved by the Soviets which awarded victory to an Il-2 from the 224th IAD. The exact location is Novoselki, 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina and 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports.
17. 14/07/1943: Iagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Pouyade - Béguin. SIV.
The exact location is Novoselki 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports. That day, the ZG1 anti-tank squadron lost 2 Me-110s at Koziul'kina (5km WNW of NOvoselki. 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Kosjulcina (10 km ONO Bolkhov) - fighter fire - Bf 110 F2 - n°5202 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p. 124, no. 120). 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Lumwko (Ljubowka,Leniwka,Lipowka?) - Atter. Urg. -> hunter shots - Bf 110 G2 - n°6297 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p.124, n°121).
18. 14/07/1943 : Kirekovo/Dolgaïa: FW-190 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the Yagodaïa sector despite 6 demands from the 1st Air Army
19. 15/07/1943 : Orel NE: Bbf-110 - Tulasne. NSIV.
20. 15/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - from Forges. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe did not lose any BF-110
21. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Littolff.NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
22. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
23. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
24. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. SIV.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo
25. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
26. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
27. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-109 - from Forges. NSIV.
No loss of Me-109 in the 1st Air Army sector.
28. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-189 - Pouyade / Préziosi/ Béguin / Durand / Risso / Vermeil. NSIV.
C.J. Ehrengard in H.S. No. 3 of Aèro-Journal, page 15. writes about this victory "A FW-189 A-2 (Wk. Nr. 183) of NAGr. 13 is heavily damaged in this sector". In reality this plane is only 20% damaged at Kuznetsy (52.83063, 35.9150651 / source: B.Arch. RL-2-III 1191, n°10, p.98) 17 km SW of Orel, i.e. 47 km more SSW of the French pilots' claim (7 km S of Znamenskoe).


summary until July 16. Of 28 victories, 3 corroborated by German archives, 1 aircraft damaged and 24 non-corroborated victories



to be continued, I'm begening the July 17th

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Laurent,

I may be wrong, but am almost sure that NAGr.44 and NAGr 155 did not exist in LW archives....was it a typo here?

YOUR WORK seems however quite interesting and amazing...keep going....

A.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Maybe you meant Aufkl.Gr.14 and NAGr 15?
https://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/nagr14.htm
https://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/nagr15.htm
https://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/aufklg14.html

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

So far 15 claims and 000% of matches....

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Great work Laurent!,I'm looking forward to the next part!

Incredible!,the wording of the court decision...I almost fell off my chair!!

Best Regards
Michel

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Hello Adriano,

the error comes from the fact that I copied and pasted it from my site and that the note indexes were transformed into numbers, I will correct it immediately. These are indeed the Aufkl.Gr.4 and NAGr 15

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Hello Focusfocus,

Welcome to France, land of freedom! In France the work of historians is increasingly limited by law and censorship (by limitations on access to sources).

We wonder what the competence of a judge can be to know if a pilot has shot down this or that plane?

Concerning the Closterman CJE case, the latter claimed 1,000,000 francs in damages and interest. He only received 100,000 which almost put aéro-éditions near of bankrupt. Pilots from the Normandie-Niemen, pushed by a competing author of the CJE, tried to take the civilian side and also attack this poor CJE.

CJE was the only author to have carried out real historical work on Normandy-Niemen and this since 1988, that is to say before the end of the Cold War and before the internet!!! I'm not enough of a specialist in the other subjects he worked on to judge them, but there's no reason why it wouldn't also be of very high quality.

This judgment therefore appears to be a stain on a state that claims to be a democracy...

attached is an extract from this unfair judgment :

Decision of the TGI of Auch, judgment rendered on September 5, 2001, case of Pierre Clostermann S.A.R.L. Aeroeditions: I on demand … II discussions and reasons:

1. On the nullity of the document initiating proceedings …

2. On the limitation exception Whereas, independently of the special provisions concerning the press and publishing, and having regard to the rights of the public, in the event of invalidation the author of a work relating historical facts engages, where appropriate, his responsibility towards persons concerned when the presentation of the theses supported manifests, through distortion, falsification or serious negligence, a flagrant disregard for the truth; Whereas in this case the criticized article relates historical facts and consequently the law of July 29, 1881 is also without application, the court seized having only to determine whether the conditions imposed by arts. 1382 and 1383 of the civil code are combined;

3. On the merits of the request Whereas the incriminated article on page 55 of the work: “French fighter pilots 39-45” brings to a total of 12 victories identified with certainty for the benefit of Mr. Pierre Closterman, while he claims some 32;

Whereas the historical service of the Air Force, making a distinction between certain victories and probable victories and damaged aircraft, attributes to Mr. Clostermann 19 individual victories, 5 probable individual victories, 7 enemy aircraft damaged in combat;

Added to this are 14 sure victories, 4 planes destroyed on the ground, 3 planes probably destroyed on the ground, 13 planes damaged on the ground, for a total of 33 sure victories;

Whereas the track record of each of the pilots which appears in this work (page 8) has been established according to the list of the hunting inspection and that it constitutes the official source;

Whereas this table was drawn up on November 1, 1945 by Fighter Command and signed by Air Vice Marshall H. J. Broadhurst; Whereas, moreover, the incriminated article also refers to a book entitled Aces High and signed C. Shores and C. Williams – Grub Street, London 1994;

Whereas given the difference between the sure victories claimed by Pierre Clostermann and those, where applicable, noted by the authors of the book “French Fighter Pilots 39 – 45”, it was up to them to hear Mr. Pierre Clostermann in a contradictory manner, this so that he can justify himself in view of the documents held by him on the claimed victories;

Whereas in fact a historian must not only verify the quality of his sources but also give voice to the still living famous character whose epic he is precisely contesting; Whereas this has not been done; Whereas, therefore, the defendant with regard to Mr. Clostermann has presented a thesis which does not allow, contrary to what she writes in the heading “Warning”, to say: “that 90% of the information contained in this book are accurate. That any additional information or correction to improve this percentage will be welcome”;

Whereas such a reservation for a normally prudent and diligent historian cannot admit 100% of the information that he develops in his work must in fact be corroborated by objective elements, which is not the case;

Whereas therefore this “warning” on the part of the authors, even if not malicious, constitutes a fault having regard to the object of this book which was to list all the French and foreign fighter pilots who served in the army of the air and naval aeronautics as well as French pilots engaged in the R.A.F. having belonged to the Free French Air Forces who were officially credited with at least one confirmed victory between September 1939 and May 1945; Whereas taking into account the notoriety of the applicant who has benefited from

the most prestigious decorations awarded to a foreigner within the framework of the Royal Air Force or in France since he was decorated by General de Gaulle with the Cross of Commander of the Legion of Honor in a personal capacity and that he is the subject of 35 of a minority of French personalities currently holder of the Dignity of Grand Cross of the Legion of Honor in a military capacity; that he is also a Companion of the Liberation, the damage resulting from the fault committed by SARL AERO EDITIONS is considerable and will be rightly repaired by a sum of 100,000 francs;


Whereas also that it is appropriate to order the publication of this decision in the journal Aviation Magazine, le Figaro Magazine, France Observateur, Le fana de l'aviation, Aerojournal, and this at the expense of the defenders without each publication exceeds 5,000 francs; … For these reasons :....

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

So where does that leave the detailed article on Clostermann's claims in Avions #227 (Janvier–Février 2019) which came to a total of 14-4-8 aerial victories?

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Hello,

"Whereas in fact a historian must not only verify the quality of his sources but also give voice to the still living famous character whose epic he is precisely contesting; "

I think Clostermann's death extinguishes much of the possibility of prosecution.

The family can still file a complaint for harm to the memory of the deceased, but it would be more complicated. Above all, it was the personality of the plaintiff that counted more than the reality of the facts (class justice);

In addition, Clostermann's son, who is classified as far right, went to support the Pro-Russian movement in Donetsk around 2016, which makes him a sub-citizen who would have little chance in a left-wing justice system and who shames the Russophiles and the nationalist extreme right (political justice).

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

The case of CJE was a bit different as he put in doubt the number of victories officially credited to Clostermann. This had nothing to overclaim.
As long as there is no accusation of fraud on part of NN pilots, there should be no legal problems resulting from an attempt to match credited victories to actual recorded losses. That said there is always a marigin of error in such attempts, especially given how incomplete German records are. Otherwise ideal would be to identify German units involved and provide their after action reports, regardless if there were losses or not.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Laurent

You use identifiers in your summary not listed in your explanation!

List: VSI (nearest explanation stated by you should read SIV?)
List: AI NSIV (nearest explanation stated by you should read AI VNSC?)
List: VNSI (nearest explanation by you should read NSIV?)

Cheers
Stig

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Thank you Stig for your comments,

yes you understood the problem correctly, I still think in French while writing in English.
I corrected.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Thanks Laurent

A couple of other minor observations
Claims 1) and 2) are the same day, ie 5 April 1943.
For some reason you have chosen to use the "American" way of writing dates, meaning claim 1) is reversed.
Claims 3) - 5) were all over Fw 190s, missing here.

Also always keep in mind that pilots identification skills were "lousy" and rightfully so
since identifying aircraft types, many instances only for split seconds, was a tricky business.....

Cheers
Stig

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Thanks, i have all corrected

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Concerning the 24th victory

24. 07/16/1943: Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. IF V.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo

In reality today, the 1st VA claims 7 Ju-87s, including 6 for the 7th Gv IAD (2nd IAK). As this division seems to do a lot of over-cleaming (30 of the 43 victories claimed by the 1st VA, if we add the victories of "Normandie" that makes 39 victories out of the 43 of the day. The other units of the 1st VA wisely claimed only 4 victories) and that I did not find any of these victories in the list of Soviet ace victories, we can argue that these victories were "consolatory" and attributed to pilots who disappeared that day. The 2nd IAK lost 19 planes and the “Normandie” 3.
In conclusion, in view of this and perhaps out of chauvinism, I attributed the victory to the French Ju-87.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Victories will be classified into:
Scientifically Identified Victory. In this case the destruction of the downed enemy aircraft was found in the Bundesarchives: SIV.
Aircraft-Identified - Victory Not Scientifically Confirmed: AI-VNSC. The plane was identified, but only damaged.
Non-Scientifically Identified Victory: NSIV. In this case, the destruction of the downed enemy plane was not found in the Bundesarchives.
This can be linked either:
- loss of the report or incorrect classification in the archives.
- the fact that the damage to the aircraft did not lead to its unavailability for repair.

Let's start, Thanks forward for any help and corrections.


1) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Preziosi. NSIV.
2) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
No German losses reported today
3) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
4) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Mahé. NSIV.
5) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Derville/Poznanski/Bizien. NSIV
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one plane: the FW-190 A44 n° 1994 of 10./J.G.51 was 80% damaged following a forced landing following an engine failure 8 km to the N of Smolensk. (Pl. Qu. 25114), (source: BArch. RL 2-III/1188, p. 198, Lw. Kdo Ost n°143).
6) 02/05/1943: Sofonovo: HS-126 - Lefèvre.NSIV
7) 03/05/1943: Mouliatino: Bf-109 - Lefèvre NSIV
8) 03/05/1943: Spas-Demensk: Hs-126 -Littolff - Castelain - Durand. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one Bf-109: Bf109 G4 n° 5759 of Nahaufkl.Gr.4 was 80% destroyed following a rupture of the landing gear on the airfield from Pankowo (Orel). This damage may have been caused following an aerial combat, so there is a possibility that he was the victim of Marcel Lefèvre. (source BArch RL 2-III/1189, p. 344, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°140).
9) 15/05/1943: Mouliation: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
10. 15/06/1943: Mariuka: FW-189 - Littolff - Castelain. NSIV.
11. 15/06/1943: Brusna - Makovaya: FW-189 of the N.A.Gr. 15- Albert - Preziosi. AI-VNSC - Aircraft slightly damaged.
This day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6) has a damaged FW-189: FW-189 A1 n° 0047 of N.A.Gr.15 is 10% damaged following an aerial combat in the vicinity of Schisdra (Al: Schisdra - Ang : Zhisdra - Fr: Jizdra - Ru: Жиздра), the radio gunner, Uffz Matthias Müller is killed. (source: BArch RL 2-III/1180, p. 185, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°190).
12. 23/06/1943: Bouda: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV
13. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Littolff. NSIV
14. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Castelain.NSIV
15. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Durand. NSIV
That day; the Luftwaffe does not lose any BF-110 in the Resseta valley, which is in agreement with the fact that the French operated that day in the Vytebet's' valley. In the latter, only one Messerschmitt Bf-110 (Bf 110 G-2,(S9+BA), W.Nr. 6295) was shot down at Ulianovo, 18 km further south. (major Vyazovik 172nd IAP) and another (Bf 110 G2 - n°6252) was damaged in the same sectors (Lt. Efimov 198th ShAP).
16. 14/07/1943: Yagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Albert. SIV.
Not approved by the Soviets which awarded victory to an Il-2 from the 224th IAD. The exact location is Novoselki, 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina and 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports.
17. 14/07/1943: Iagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Pouyade - Béguin. SIV.
The exact location is Novoselki 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports. That day, the ZG1 anti-tank squadron lost 2 Me-110s at Koziul'kina (5km WNW of NOvoselki. 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Kosjulcina (10 km ONO Bolkhov) - fighter fire - Bf 110 F2 - n°5202 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p. 124, no. 120). 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Lumwko (Ljubowka,Leniwka,Lipowka?) - Energency Landing due to fighter fire - Bf 110 G2 - n°6297 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p.124, n°121).
18. 14/07/1943 : Kirekovo/Dolgaïa: FW-190 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the Yagodaïa sector despite 6 demands from the 1st Air Army
19. 15/07/1943 : Orel NE: Bbf-110 - Tulasne. NSIV.
20. 15/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - from Forges. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe did not lose any BF-110
21. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Littolff.NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
22. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
23. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
24. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. SIV.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo
25. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
26. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
27. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-109 - from Forges. NSIV.
No loss of Me-109 in the 1st Air Army sector.
28. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-189 - Pouyade / Préziosi/ Béguin / Durand / Risso / Vermeil. NSIV.
C.J. Ehrengard in H.S. No. 3 of Aèro-Journal, page 15. writes about this victory "A FW-189 A-2 (Wk. Nr. 183) of NAGr. 13 is heavily damaged in this sector". In reality this plane is only 20% damaged at Kuznetsy (52.83063, 35.9150651 / source: B.Arch. RL-2-III 1191, n°10, p.98) 17 km SW of Orel, i.e. 47 km more SSW of the French pilots' claim (7 km S of Znamenskoe).
29. 17/07/1943: Yagodnaya - Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Albert. NSIV.
30. 17/07/1943: Znamenskaïa: FW-190 - Albert - Préziosi. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6), lost 3 FW-190s in the Orel region, two in the 15th VA sector and 1 third from the I./Schl.G.1 in the 1st VA sector, but 45 km SSW of Znamenskpe and moreover the pair Albert-Preziosi engages two FW-190s from JG.51.
31. 19/07/ 1943 Znamenskaïa : Ju -88 – Léon / de Forges / Albert / Risso / Bon. NSIV.
The pilots considered it damaged, the ground troops confirmed the victory, confusing it with the Ju-88 of 7./K.G.51 which suffered damage and made an emergency landing in the vicinity of Krasnikovo (Stolbtchee).
32. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk- FW-190 - Lefèvre. NSIV.
The exact location of the fight is 3-4 km south of Pavlinovo. This day the Luftwaffe only lost in this sector the Fw 190A-5 n° 525 (100%) of 15(Span)/JG-51 in Pl.Qu.35488 (3 km north of Pavlinovo) following a collision with a Soviet plane during combat. The time of the collision is 4:25 p.m. (3:25 p.m. German time), so it cannot be the one damaged by Lieutenant Lefèvre because the French landed at their airfield at 3:50 p.m.
33. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk - Ju-87- Largeau.NSIV.
The exact location is between Pavlinovo and Tserkovshchina. This day the 3./St.G.1 loses the Ju-87 D3, n°110037 (100%) south of Potchinok (there is a Potchinok in the sector of operation of the "Normandie", coordinates: 54.375 33.679). This Ju-87 made a forced landing following DCA fire, the crew unhurt (sources: R-2-III-1192, p.50, n°76). This Ju-87 is counted as damaged in the March Journal and does not appear in the list of damaged aircraft in the 1st VA report.

Results: as of July 17, 1943, out of 33 official victories, 3 downed planes could be identified and 1 others identified as damaged. If we apply the ratio of 1/10 to the 273 victories of Normandie-Niemen we arrive at 27 victories, which is close to the 33 victories of the Ile de France Group.
At first glance for the year 1943, under the leadership of Pierre Pouyade, the number of victories identified will be higher.

Ranking of drivers by identified victories:

1°) Pierre Pouyade: 1.5 victories.
2°) Marcel Albert: 1 victory, 1 plane damaged.
3°) Didier Béguin: 0.5 victory.


to help understand my conclusions, diagram of the organization of the VVS during the Orel offensive
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/<a hre...800/xhj2oa.png

https://i.goopics.net/bru9ca.png

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

As already noted, there is an issue of aircraft recognition. Due to heat of combat, pilots were not always able to recognise aircraft encountered, and more than often mistook the types. So, it is always better to list single and twin engined losses rather than to look for particular types. Of course, there is always an issue of presence of other friendly units and their claims and losses.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Hello Franek,
you are absolutely right, in general I already do it, for example, if an Hs126 and claims, I also look for the He-46, Fi-156 and other "trapanelles".
I will do another check taking into account the categories "single-engine", "light twin-engine", "heavy twin-engine" and "tapranelles (lowly powered aircraft).

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Identification of the 30th Victory:
On July 19, a Ju-88 was shot down by GC3. The report from the 303rd IAD for the day indicates that the Ju-88 was only damaged, this is what the French pilots indicated, "the plane disappeared into the clouds with a smoking engine". Victory is then confirmed by the troops on the ground. Certainly the 108 SD which reported during the day 4 planes shot down fighters (Perhaps the 4 planes claimed by the Luftwaffe around Viazovaya (54625)). This day the 7./K.G.1 lost the Ju-88 A4 n°3647 at Stolbtcheye (4 km NE of Krasnikon 53.4236 35.7522 (R-2-III-1191, p.61, n°46) due to a emergency landing following engine fires. The crew was unhurt, the plane was 40% damaged. This explains why ground troops reported the fall of a Ju-88 in the Krasnikovo sector.

31. 19/07/ 1943 Znamenskaïa : Ju -88 – Léon / de Forges / Albert / Risso / Bon. NSIV.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Laurent

As to your post above (No 19) I assume you mean claim no 31 (and not 30)

Also since my knowledge of the Eastern Front and Russian place names is lousy, was there also a Krasnikon?
Just curious since you elsewhere consistently seems to refer to a place called Krasnikovo.

Also in post 16 you have reversed two dates (as 07/17/1943 instead of 17/07/1943).
Claim 28) was that really made for a Bf-189, or is it a misprint by you?

Cheers
Stig

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Thanks stig, to point my misprints. I corriged it.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Laurent
You would be surprised what mistakes do appear in combat reports. Hs 126 could perfectly have been He 177. :D
Aside, the damaged Ju 88, if possible to link to NN pilots, I would consider it a valid victory. Damaged aircraft is a victory, still.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

32nd and 33rd Victory

32. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk- FW-190 - Lefèvre. NSIV.
The exact location of the fight is 3-4 km south of Pavlinovo. This day the Luftwaffe only lost in this sector the Fw 190A-5 n° 525 (100%) of 15(Span)/JG-51 in Pl.Qu.35488 or 35664 more probabily (3 km north or 14 SE of Pavlinovo) following a collision with a Soviet plane during combat. The time of the collision is 4:25 p.m. (3:25 p.m. German time), so it cannot be the one damaged by Lieutenant Lefèvre because the French landed at their airfield at 3:50 p.m.
33. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk - Ju-87- Largeau.NSIV.
The exact location is between Pavlinovo and Tserkovshchina. This day the 3./St.G.1 loses the Ju-87 D3, n°110037 (100%) south of Potchinok (there is a Potchinok in the sector of operation of the "Normandie", coordinates: 54.375 33.679). This Ju-87 made a forced landing following DCA fire, the crew unhurt (sources: R-2-III-1192, p.50, n°76). This Ju-87 is counted as damaged in the March Journal and does not appear in the list of damaged aircraft in the 1st VA report.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Victories will be classified into:
Scientifically Identified Victory. In this case the destruction of the downed enemy aircraft was found in the Bundesarchives: SIV.
Aircraft-Identified - Victory Not Scientifically Confirmed: AI-VNSC. The plane was identified, but only damaged.
Non-Scientifically Identified Victory: NSIV. In this case, the destruction of the downed enemy plane was not found in the Bundesarchives.
This can be linked either:
- loss of the report or incorrect classification in the archives.
- the fact that the damage to the aircraft did not lead to its unavailability for repair.

Let's start, Thanks forward for any help and corrections.


1) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Preziosi. NSIV.
2) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
No German losses reported today
3) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
4) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Mahé. NSIV.
5) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Derville/Poznanski/Bizien. NSIV
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one plane: the FW-190 A44 n° 1994 of 10./J.G.51 was 80% damaged following a forced landing following an engine failure 8 km to the N of Smolensk. (Pl. Qu. 25114), (source: BArch. RL 2-III/1188, p. 198, Lw. Kdo Ost n°143).
6) 02/05/1943: Sofonovo: HS-126 - Lefèvre.NSIV
7) 03/05/1943: Mouliatino: Bf-109 - Lefèvre NSIV
8) 03/05/1943: Spas-Demensk: Hs-126 -Littolff - Castelain - Durand. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one Bf-109: Bf109 G4 n° 5759 of Nahaufkl.Gr.4 was 80% destroyed following a rupture of the landing gear on the airfield from Pankowo (Orel). This damage may have been caused following an aerial combat, so there is a possibility that he was the victim of Marcel Lefèvre. (source BArch RL 2-III/1189, p. 344, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°140).
9) 15/05/1943: Mouliation: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
10. 15/06/1943: Mariuka: FW-189 - Littolff - Castelain. NSIV.
11. 15/06/1943: Brusna - Makovaya: FW-189 of the N.A.Gr. 15- Albert - Preziosi. AI-VNSC - Aircraft slightly damaged.
This day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6) has a damaged FW-189: FW-189 A1 n° 0047 of N.A.Gr.15 is 10% damaged following an aerial combat in the vicinity of Schisdra (Al: Schisdra - Ang : Zhisdra - Fr: Jizdra - Ru: Жиздра), the radio gunner, Uffz Matthias Müller is killed. (source: BArch RL 2-III/1180, p. 185, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°190).
12. 23/06/1943: Bouda: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV
13. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Littolff. NSIV
14. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Castelain.NSIV
15. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Durand. NSIV
That day; the Luftwaffe does not lose any BF-110 in the Resseta valley, which is in agreement with the fact that the French operated that day in the Vytebet's' valley. In the latter, only one Messerschmitt Bf-110 (Bf 110 G-2,(S9+BA), W.Nr. 6295) was shot down at Ulianovo, 18 km further south. (major Vyazovik 172nd IAP) and another (Bf 110 G2 - n°6252) was damaged in the same sectors (Lt. Efimov 198th ShAP).
16. 14/07/1943: Yagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Albert. SIV.
Not approved by the Soviets which awarded victory to an Il-2 from the 224th IAD. The exact location is Novoselki, 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina and 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports.
17. 14/07/1943: Iagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Pouyade - Béguin. SIV.
The exact location is Novoselki 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports. That day, the ZG1 anti-tank squadron lost 2 Me-110s at Koziul'kina (5km WNW of NOvoselki. 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Kosjulcina (10 km ONO Bolkhov) - fighter fire - Bf 110 F2 - n°5202 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p. 124, no. 120). 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Lumwko (Ljubowka,Leniwka,Lipowka?) - Energency Landing due to fighter fire - Bf 110 G2 - n°6297 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p.124, n°121).
18. 14/07/1943 : Kirekovo/Dolgaïa: FW-190 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the Yagodaïa sector despite 6 demands from the 1st Air Army
19. 15/07/1943 : Orel NE: Bbf-110 - Tulasne. NSIV.
20. 15/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - from Forges. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe did not lose any BF-110
21. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Littolff.NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
22. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
23. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
24. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. SIV.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo
25. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
26. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
27. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-109 - from Forges. NSIV.
No loss of Me-109 in the 1st Air Army sector.
28. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-189 - Pouyade / Préziosi/ Béguin / Durand / Risso / Vermeil. NSIV.
C.J. Ehrengard in H.S. No. 3 of Aèro-Journal, page 15. writes about this victory "A FW-189 A-2 (Wk. Nr. 183) of NAGr. 13 is heavily damaged in this sector". In reality this plane is only 20% damaged at Kuznetsy (52.83063, 35.9150651 / source: B.Arch. RL-2-III 1191, n°10, p.98) 17 km SW of Orel, i.e. 47 km more SSW of the French pilots' claim (7 km S of Znamenskoe).
29. 17/07/1943: Yagodnaya - Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Albert. NSIV.
30. 17/07/1943: Znamenskaïa: FW-190 - Albert - Préziosi. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6), lost 3 FW-190s in the Orel region, two in the 15th VA sector and 1 third from the I./Schl.G.1 in the 1st VA sector, but 45 km SSW of Znamenskpe and moreover the pair Albert-Preziosi engages two FW-190s from JG.51.
31. 19/07/ 1943 Znamenskaïa : Ju -88 – Léon / de Forges / Albert / Risso / Bon. NSIV.
The pilots considered it damaged, the ground troops confirmed the victory, confusing it with the Ju-88 of 7./K.G.51 which suffered damage and made an emergency landing in the vicinity of Krasnikovo (Stolbtchee).
32. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk- FW-190 - Lefèvre. NSIV.
The exact location of the fight is 3-4 km south of Pavlinovo. This day the Luftwaffe only lost in this sector the Fw 190A-5 n° 525 (100%) of 15(Span)/JG-51 in Pl.Qu.35488 (3 km north of Pavlinovo) following a collision with a Soviet plane during combat. The time of the collision is 4:25 p.m. (3:25 p.m. German time), so it cannot be the one damaged by Lieutenant Lefèvre because the French landed at their airfield at 3:50 p.m.
33. 21/08/1943 : Spas Demensk - Ju-87- Largeau. NSIV.
The exact location is between Pavlinovo and Tserkovshchina. This day the 3./St.G.1 loses the Ju-87 D3, n°110037 (100%) south of Potchinok (there is a Potchinok in the sector of operation of the "Normandie", coordinates: 54.375 33.679). This Ju-87 made a forced landing following DCA fire, the crew unhurt (sources: R-2-III-1192, p.50, n°76). This Ju-87 is counted as damaged in the March Journal and does not appear in the list of damaged aircraft in the 1st VA report.
34. 21/08/1943 : Demensk Spas - FW-190 -Foucaud. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 known to date in the Spas Demensk area.
35. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Mathis. NSIV.
36. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Béguin. NSIV.
37. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Good. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe only lost 2 Ju-87s in the sector, one from the 9./St.G.3 and another from the 10./St.G.3, as C.J Ehrengard had already indicated. (ECJ, 1989). The latter therefore seems to validate two victories for the "Normandy", but the study of the Soviet archives shows that on this day the different units of the 1st VA claim 18 Ju-87s in the Ielnia sector (13 for the 8th IAK, 3 for "Normandy", 2 for the 303rd IAD). We have 18 claims for 2 planes shot down. To these figures we must add the planes claimed by the DCA, which represents 5.5% of the planes observed7. The study of ground troop reports does not indicate any peak in Ju-87 activity during this period, only the intervention of 25 He-111s in Korobets at 6:40 p.m. It is therefore currently impossible to locate more precisely the place of combat which must be located to the south-east of Iel'nia. There being no conclusive evidence to link the loss of the 2 Ju-87s to the pilots of the Normandie, the three victories of the day will therefore be classified as VNSI.
38. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Lefèvre - Risso. NSIV.
39. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Lefèvre.NSIV.
40. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - de la Poype. NSIV.
41. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Albert. NSIV.
42. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Barber. NSIV.
43. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Béguin/mathis. NSIV.
No loss of Ju-87 found in the German archives, nor any other FW-190 apart from that of Captain Borras, all his victories are therefore classified as VNSI.
44. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - He-111 - Durand. SIV.
Today the different units of the 1st VA claim only one He-111, for its part the II.K./G.53 loses the He-111 H16 n°150594 8 km NW of Ielnia (Pl . Qu. 3534). The pilot and navigator were killed, the rest of the team was able to parachute. (sources: R-2-III-1193, p.162, n°73). The location and scenario match, the downed plane is therefore identified.
45. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Foucaud. NSIV.
46. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Léon. NSIV.
This first phase of combat must correspond to the attack of the Schwarm "Cuadra", it is possible that the French pilots interpreted Commander Cuadra's plane damaged by the explosion of the Yak-9 from Normandy as having been hit by their shots . On those days, the Luftwaffe only lost one FW-190, these victories will be classified VNSI.
47. 31/08/1943 :Ielnia - FW-190 - Risso - Mathis. SIV.
In a second phase of combat 5 minutes after the second, the 15.(Span.)/J.G.51 lost the FW-190 A2 – n° 500 of Hptm Borras to the West Ieln'ia during an aerial combat, the German troops on the ground indicate that FW6190 crashed at 1:09 p.m. (R-2-III-1195, p.102, n°44). No other Soviet plane was in the area at that time, so Captain Borras was a victim of the French pilots. This victory is therefore classified as SIV.
48. 01/09/1943: Ielnia - FW-190 - Albert - de la Poype. NSIV.
During this fight near Ielnia, the French pilots were opposed to elements of the 1./J.G.54, including Walter Nowotny. This day the J.G..54 does not lose any aircraft, and the Luftwaffe no FW-190 in the 1st VA sector.

Results: as of August 31, 1943, out of 48 official victories, 5 downed planes could be identified and 1 others identified as damaged. If we apply the ratio of 1/10 to the 273 victories of Normandie-Niemen we arrive at 27 victories, which is close to the 33 victories of the Ile de France Group.
At first glance for the year 1943, under the leadership of Pierre Pouyade, the number of victories identified will be higher.

Ranking of drivers by identified victories:

1°) Pierre Pouyade: 1.5 victories.
2°) Marcel Albert: 1 victory, 1 plane damaged.
3°) Albert Durand : 1 victory.
4°) Didier Béguin : 0,5 victoiry.
4°) Joseph Risso : 0,5 victoiry.
4°) Jacque Mathis : 0,5 victoirY.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Above you will find the latest update somewhat delayed by a code 451!
"451 content not available for legal reasons".

Some people do not seem to be satisfied with this identification work, and we have already made reports to WordPress and Google....

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

To be fair, you would need to make a similar scrutiny for Ile de France Squadron.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

To be fair, I think I'll start by doing it with the JG-51 and JG-54 others, which were opposed to the 1st Soviet VA.

And also look at the other Soviet units, because the overclaiming is not systematic there, it is mainly concentrated in certain units for example like the "Normandy" or the 8th IAK (air force composed of 2 divisions = 6 regiments ).

What seems to emerge is that the Luftwaffe, which no longer had control of the skies in 1943, was already leading an aerial guerrilla war harassing the already vastly superior Russian air force. By “air guerilla” I mean the tactics of René Fonck, surprise attack, not extended in case of failure. Scout, hit and run!
It is certainly this escape which led the Soviet pilots (who applied the Guyenemer tactic, that is to say not being afraid of taking bullets into the plane) to consider that the planes were only hit, as shot down.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

I think comparing to the Soviet units could be interesting, as they were operating within the same system, though the one should put into account the number of missions and engagements.
Concerning the Lutwaffe, in 1943 it was forced to withdraw as many as possible units to Reich defence. Still the technical superiority allowed them hit and run tactics used to minimise losses. Soviets had no choice, being on receiving end, usually, and only sometimes able to strike back. Add to this Soviet doctrine, and it explains the results.

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

New income :

48. 01/09/1943: Ielnia - FW-190 - Albert - de la Poype. NSIV.
During this fight near Ielnia, the French pilots were opposed to elements of the 1./J.G.54, including Walter Nowotn. This day the J.G..54 does not lose any aircraft, and the Luftwaffe no FW-190 in the 1st VA sector.

This days the "Normandie" Loose one plane (Durand) and a seconde (Léon), Nowotny or Döbele ?

Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 

Victories will be classified into:
Scientifically Identified Victory. In this case the destruction of the downed enemy aircraft was found in the Bundesarchives: SIV.
Aircraft-Identified - Victory Not Scientifically Confirmed: AI-VNSC. The plane was identified, but only damaged.
Non-Scientifically Identified Victory: NSIV. In this case, the destruction of the downed enemy plane was not found in the Bundesarchives.
This can be linked either:
- loss of the report or incorrect classification in the archives.
- the fact that the damage to the aircraft did not lead to its unavailability for repair.

Let's start, Thanks forward for any help and corrections.


1) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Preziosi. NSIV.
2) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
No German losses reported today
3) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
4) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Mahé. NSIV.
5) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Derville/Poznanski/Bizien. NSIV
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one plane: the FW-190 A44 n° 1994 of 10./J.G.51 was 80% damaged following a forced landing following an engine failure 8 km to the N of Smolensk. (Pl. Qu. 25114), (source: BArch. RL 2-III/1188, p. 198, Lw. Kdo Ost n°143).
6) 02/05/1943: Sofonovo: HS-126 - Lefèvre.NSIV
7) 03/05/1943: Mouliatino: Bf-109 - Lefèvre NSIV
8) 03/05/1943: Spas-Demensk: Hs-126 -Littolff - Castelain - Durand. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one Bf-109: Bf109 G4 n° 5759 of Nahaufkl.Gr.4 was 80% destroyed following a rupture of the landing gear on the airfield from Pankowo (Orel). This damage may have been caused following an aerial combat, so there is a possibility that he was the victim of Marcel Lefèvre. (source BArch RL 2-III/1189, p. 344, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°140).
9) 15/05/1943: Mouliation: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
10. 15/06/1943: Mariuka: FW-189 - Littolff - Castelain. NSIV.
11. 15/06/1943: Brusna - Makovaya: FW-189 of the N.A.Gr. 15- Albert - Preziosi. AI-VNSC - Aircraft slightly damaged.
This day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6) has a damaged FW-189: FW-189 A1 n° 0047 of N.A.Gr.15 is 10% damaged following an aerial combat in the vicinity of Schisdra (Al: Schisdra - Ang : Zhisdra - Fr: Jizdra - Ru: Жиздра), the radio gunner, Uffz Matthias Müller is killed. (source: BArch RL 2-III/1180, p. 185, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°190).
12. 23/06/1943: Bouda: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV
13. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Littolff. NSIV
14. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Castelain.NSIV
15. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Durand. NSIV
That day; the Luftwaffe does not lose any BF-110 in the Resseta valley, which is in agreement with the fact that the French operated that day in the Vytebet's' valley. In the latter, only one Messerschmitt Bf-110 (Bf 110 G-2,(S9+BA), W.Nr. 6295) was shot down at Ulianovo, 18 km further south. (major Vyazovik 172nd IAP) and another (Bf 110 G2 - n°6252) was damaged in the same sectors (Lt. Efimov 198th ShAP).
16. 14/07/1943: Yagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Albert. SIV.
Not approved by the Soviets which awarded victory to an Il-2 from the 224th IAD. The exact location is Novoselki, 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina and 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports.
17. 14/07/1943: Iagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Pouyade - Béguin. SIV.
The exact location is Novoselki 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports. That day, the ZG1 anti-tank squadron lost 2 Me-110s at Koziul'kina (5km WNW of NOvoselki. 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Kosjulcina (10 km ONO Bolkhov) - fighter fire - Bf 110 F2 - n°5202 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p. 124, no. 120). 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Lumwko (Ljubowka,Leniwka,Lipowka?) - Energency Landing due to fighter fire - Bf 110 G2 - n°6297 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p.124, n°121).
18. 14/07/1943 : Kirekovo/Dolgaïa: FW-190 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the Yagodaïa sector despite 6 demands from the 1st Air Army
19. 15/07/1943 : Orel NE: Bbf-110 - Tulasne. NSIV.
20. 15/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - from Forges. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe did not lose any BF-110
21. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Littolff.NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
22. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
23. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
24. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. SIV.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo
25. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
26. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
27. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-109 - from Forges. NSIV.
No loss of Me-109 in the 1st Air Army sector.
28. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-189 - Pouyade / Préziosi/ Béguin / Durand / Risso / Vermeil. NSIV.
C.J. Ehrengard in H.S. No. 3 of Aèro-Journal, page 15. writes about this victory "A FW-189 A-2 (Wk. Nr. 183) of NAGr. 13 is heavily damaged in this sector". In reality this plane is only 20% damaged at Kuznetsy (52.83063, 35.9150651 / source: B.Arch. RL-2-III 1191, n°10, p.98) 17 km SW of Orel, i.e. 47 km more SSW of the French pilots' claim (7 km S of Znamenskoe).
29. 17/07/1943: Yagodnaya - Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Albert. NSIV.
30. 17/07/1943: Znamenskaïa: FW-190 - Albert - Préziosi. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6), lost 3 FW-190s in the Orel region, two in the 15th VA sector and 1 third from the I./Schl.G.1 in the 1st VA sector, but 45 km SSW of Znamenskpe and moreover the pair Albert-Preziosi engages two FW-190s from JG.51.
31. 19/07/ 1943 Znamenskaïa : Ju -88 – Léon / de Forges / Albert / Risso / Bon. NSIV.
The pilots considered it damaged, the ground troops confirmed the victory, confusing it with the Ju-88 of 7./K.G.51 which suffered damage and made an emergency landing in the vicinity of Krasnikovo (Stolbtchee).
32. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk- FW-190 - Lefèvre. NSIV.
The exact location of the fight is 3-4 km south of Pavlinovo. This day the Luftwaffe only lost in this sector the Fw 190A-5 n° 525 (100%) of 15(Span)/JG-51 in Pl.Qu.35488 (3 km north of Pavlinovo) following a collision with a Soviet plane during combat. The time of the collision is 4:25 p.m. (3:25 p.m. German time), so it cannot be the one damaged by Lieutenant Lefèvre because the French landed at their airfield at 3:50 p.m.
33. 21/08/1943 : Spas Demensk - Ju-87- Largeau. NSIV.
The exact location is between Pavlinovo and Tserkovshchina. This day the 3./St.G.1 loses the Ju-87 D3, n°110037 (100%) south of Potchinok (there is a Potchinok in the sector of operation of the "Normandie", coordinates: 54.375 33.679). This Ju-87 made a forced landing following DCA fire, the crew unhurt (sources: R-2-III-1192, p.50, n°76). This Ju-87 is counted as damaged in the March Journal and does not appear in the list of damaged aircraft in the 1st VA report.
34. 21/08/1943 : Demensk Spas - FW-190 -Foucaud. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 known to date in the Spas Demensk area.
35. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Mathis. NSIV.
36. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Béguin. NSIV.
37. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Good. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe only lost 2 Ju-87s in the sector, one from the 9./St.G.3 and another from the 10./St.G.3, as C.J Ehrengard had already indicated. (ECJ, 1989). The latter therefore seems to validate two victories for the "Normandy", but the study of the Soviet archives shows that on this day the different units of the 1st VA claim 18 Ju-87s in the Ielnia sector (13 for the 8th IAK, 3 for "Normandy", 2 for the 303rd IAD). We have 18 claims for 2 planes shot down. To these figures we must add the planes claimed by the DCA, which represents 5.5% of the planes observed7. The study of ground troop reports does not indicate any peak in Ju-87 activity during this period, only the intervention of 25 He-111s in Korobets at 6:40 p.m. It is therefore currently impossible to locate more precisely the place of combat which must be located to the south-east of Iel'nia. There being no conclusive evidence to link the loss of the 2 Ju-87s to the pilots of the Normandie, the three victories of the day will therefore be classified as VNSI.
38. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Lefèvre - Risso. NSIV.
39. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Lefèvre.NSIV.
40. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - de la Poype. NSIV.
41. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Albert. NSIV.
42. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Barber. NSIV.
43. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Béguin/mathis. NSIV.
No loss of Ju-87 found in the German archives, nor any other FW-190 apart from that of Captain Borras, all his victories are therefore classified as VNSI.
44. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - He-111 - Durand. SIV.
Today the different units of the 1st VA claim only one He-111, for its part the II.K./G.53 loses the He-111 H16 n°150594 8 km NW of Ielnia (Pl . Qu. 3534). The pilot and navigator were killed, the rest of the team was able to parachute. (sources: R-2-III-1193, p.162, n°73). The location and scenario match, the downed plane is therefore identified.
45. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Foucaud. NSIV.
46. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Léon. NSIV.
This first phase of combat must correspond to the attack of the Schwarm "Cuadra", it is possible that the French pilots interpreted Commander Cuadra's plane damaged by the explosion of the Yak-9 from Normandy as having been hit by their shots . On those days, the Luftwaffe only lost one FW-190, these victories will be classified VNSI.
47. 31/08/1943 :Ielnia - FW-190 - Risso - Mathis. SIV.
In a second phase of combat 5 minutes after the second, the 15.(Span.)/J.G.51 lost the FW-190 A2 – n° 500 of Hptm Borras to the West Ieln'ia during an aerial combat, the German troops on the ground indicate that FW6190 crashed at 1:09 p.m. (R-2-III-1195, p.102, n°44). No other Soviet plane was in the area at that time, so Captain Borras was a victim of the French pilots. This victory is therefore classified as SIV.
48. 01/09/1943: Ielnia - FW-190 - Albert - de la Poype. NSIV.
During this fight near Ielnia, the French pilots were opposed to elements of the 1./J.G.54, including Walter Nowotny. This day the J.G..54 does not lose any aircraft, and the Luftwaffe no FW-190 in the 1st VA sector.
49. 04/09/1943: Ielnia - Ju-88 - Albert - Lefèvre. NSIV.
For the day of 04/09/43, no information concerning the loss of a twin-engine bomber was found in the available German archives,
50. 04/09/1943: Ielnia - Ju-88 - Albert - Mathis, Bon. NSIV.
For the day of 04/09/43, no information concerning the loss of a twin-engine bomber was found in the available German archives,
51. 04/09/1943: Ielnia - FW-190 - de la Poype. NSIV.
JC Ehrengardt (JCE, 1989) writes about this victory "probably the "white 8" of Lieutenant Kart Hardt of I./J.G.51, missing above Ielnia" (Fw 190 A6 - n°550487 - (R-2-III-1193, p.149, n°124)). However, today the various units of the 1st Soviet Air Army claim 24 FW-190s; including 13 by the 309th IAD, 5 by the 8th IAK, 5 by the 303rd IAD, 1 by the 1st Gv BAK; while the Luftwaffe only lost one. The number takes place at 5:30 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. Soviet or 4:30 p.m. and 5:00 p.m. German. With 1./J.G.51 operating around 5:15 p.m., there is therefore a very low probability that the pilots could have crossed paths with the pilots of 1./J.G.51.
52. 04/09/1943: Ielnia - Ju-88 - Largeau - NSIV.
For the day of 04/09/43, no information concerning the loss of a twin-engine bomber was found in the available German archives,
53. 09/14/1943: Borovskoe - FW-190 - Risso. SIV.
That day, the 12./J.G.54 lost to the south Schalatovo-Est a FW 190 A6 (n°550167) shot down during an aerial combat, set on fire - (R-2-III-1193, p.83, n °43).



Results: as of September 14, 1943, out of 53 official victories, 6 downed planes could be identified and 1 others identified as damaged. If we apply the ratio of 1/10 to the 273 victories of Normandie-Niemen we arrive at 27 victories, which is close to the 33 victories of the Ile de France Group.
At first glance for the year 1943, under the leadership of Pierre Pouyade, the number of victories identified will be higher.

Ranking of pilots by identified victories:
1°) Pierre Pouyade: 1.5 victories.
1°) Joseph Risso: 1.5 victories
3°) Marcel Albert: 1 victory, 1 plane damaged.
4°) Albert Durand: 1 victory
5°) Didier Béguin: 0.5 victory.
5°) Jacques Mathis: 0.5 victory