4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Who shot down the 3 P-47 lost that day( in the region of Ostend) by the 4th Fighter Group (334th Squadron).

Thanks in advance

Michel

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hi Michel,

the P-47 D-1-RE 42-7920 was shot down by Uffz Johannes Rathenow, 2./JG 1 at 1400 hrs 10 km west of Blankenberghe.
Two more P-47 of the 4th FG collided on the occasion of chasing some Fw 190.

Source: JFV Vol. 10/I page 113, 10/II page 84 and 10/IV page 154.

Regards
Leo

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hi Leo

According to microfilm,the Obfw.Hoffmann (11/JG54) claimed a P-47 10 km W.Blankenberge,corresponding to the losses of 4°FG.

Always according to microfilm,Uffz.Rathenow claimed a B-17 and not a P-47.

I don't know what is based JFV series!

The is an obvious contradiction.The other 2 P-47 "would have been victims of III/JG26" but microfilm absent....so anyone say more?

Michel

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hello, Michel

When you say according to the microfilm, have you them or do you use Tony Wood's file built from the microfilms ?

To have worked with Mr Wood at the time, I know that some files were hardly readable and Mr Wood had to guess what was written.

It will be great if Mr Prien can comment on this case, but my humble opinion is that the JFV series is more accurate than Mr Wood's files.

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Michel

Yes this is one of those claims where authors have chosen to differ.
According to Jochen Prien I./JG 1 flew one extra mission that afternoon and Rathenow then claimed one P-47 as stated by Leo. He indicates nothing for 11./JG 54. It is also worth noting that this information differ from his previous books about JG 1 and JG 11.

All other sources I have say the claim was made by Ofw Hoffmann from 11./JG 54. For example Johannes Mathews says Rathenow only made 4 claims (Prien says 5) and there is a Hoffmann with JG 54 and 1 claim which may fit the one below. It seems no given name is known at this point.

No idea why Jochen Prien and his colleagues have chosen to differ in their later work. Both he and Gerhard Stemmer are onboard TOCH so they can answer, if they want to.

The readabillity of the microfilms are well known, as Laurent says, and Johannes is probably as good a champion reading them as anyone else who have tried.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

In the Osprey book on JG 54, it is said that on 21 May 1943 Ofw Reinheld (sic) Hoffmann scored the only victory of 11./JG 54.

So we have a complete name here, but AFAIK could be Reinhold rather than Reinheld.

There was a Reinhold Hoffmann in JG 54, but he scored kills with 5./JG 54 on the Eastern Front in March and May 1943 (on the 30th). I will be surprised if he flew with 11./JG 54 over Belgium on 21 May 1943.

So... well I think this full name is as reliable as most Osprey books ;)

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Well Laurent

Johannes has no Reinheld Hoffmann in his list.

The far more well known Reinhold Hoffmann with 5./JG 54 was nowhere near the western front.

Checking the name Reinheld, google suggests it is a female name, but perhaps a mistake for Reinhild? Again trying to find anyone in Germany named Reinheld Hoffmann proved impossible, but I did not try very hard, to be honest.... :)

Anyone else who has an opinion?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hi Laurent,Stig

I admit that I "lose my Latin",if I may say!

To "add a stone to the buiding",according to Caldwell,the 3 P-47 "would have victims of III/JG26!!

I also trust in Prien and his team,but I don't understand the (sometimes huge) differences between the facts narrated in his previous publications(JG1/JG11),without forgetting JG53/JG77,and more recent series:....in a few years,everything will be questioned again?

Well,I enter in my Database yours corrections.

Thank you again

Best Regards
Michel

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Well, from memory, wasn't a staffel (or more) exchange between JG 54 and JG 26 from front to front mid-'43 ?

ClinA-78

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Well Michel

I have nothing against Caldwell, except perhaps his rather "blind faith" in JG 26 :)

As far as I can see he is the only one to find these three P-47s and assign them to JG 26.

From US sources we can be fairly certain 4FG mission was to patrol the Ostend-Ghent sector. The fight they got into was in the Bruges area, which fits their mission profile. However we also have to remember that a combat patrol like this took place quite high up and the exact path taken is always tricky to compute, especially since all three squadrons were involved.

4FG reported that two pilots were missing after chasing enemy aircraft roughly over Ghent and going eastward, ie towards Brussels rather than the coast, while the third pilot, William Morgan, went down into the North Sea off Ostend. This indicates if nothing else that the 4FG split up and chased/were themselves chased by various German units. Blankenberge is along the coast north east of Ostend and the claim vs the loss fits extremely well.

At this time III./JG 26 were based in northern France while I./JG 1 was based in Holland. Both units had Belgium within easy reach so it is not impossible both units actually were involved. Since 11./JG 26 was known as 11./JG 54 at this time it is also clear why we have that unit listed.

I wonder from where the details origin that two P-47s collided? They are not listed as such in the 4FG books I have. Sounds like an afterthought where someone in USA could not find any German claims so ergo collision must be the answer....

At this stage it seems impossible to find out the exact truth of claims vs losses and as far as I go, I am OK with that. I can accept not all riddles are solvable, but it would be interesting to know why JFV has switched the name from Hoffmann to Rathenow... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Lt William Brewster Morgan, who was the only survivor from the 4th FG wrote an account of his shoot down, which was published in the February 1959 Flying magazine.

It all started one sunny May day back in 1943.

I was operations officer with the 355th Fighter Squadron of the 4th Fighter Group, Eight Air Force stationed at Debden. England.
We were to pull a diversion to draw the German fighters in order that our bombers might hit Emden. Germany, our track was to be Ghent, Belgium.
Before climbing into the cockpit of his P-47, Bud Care, my wingman, sauntered over for a last cigarette and we discussed the coming mission. "You know, Morgan," he said, "we've simply got to do better. Our squadron is low scorer, it's up to us old-timers to lead the pack." I agreed and we shook hands , wishing each other good luck.
Our group was acting as top cover for the force and we were to go in at 35,000 feet. As we approached the coast of Belgium, the C.O. called our radar control in England, and the calm, unconcerned voice announced that that things were beginning to pop "Fifty plus bogies taking off St. Omer, 30 plus Lille, 50 plus Blankenburg" there were more coming.
We soon crossed in and, in no time we were over Ghent. This was our turning point, we had done our work, now we were to head home.
Bud Care's voice crackled, "Red Three red four here-two bogies at eleven o'clock low, look like Me's." I strained my eyes but the high altitude haze blotted out everything at eleven o'clock low. Taking a deep breath, I answered "Roger from Red Three, you go down I'll follow.
In a second, we were behind two Messerschmitts and they hadn't seen us. Bud's gun were firing. The first burst was enough, the enemy plane flew apart in a cloud of flames. Number two filled my sights. I tightened my finger on the trigger, the jumping of the guns seemed simultaneous with the strikes on his right wing and along the engine cowl smoke poured from his exhaust and he fell into an easy left bank that tightened into a spiral as he headed down. All good reason had left me blotted out by the thought "a confirmed, get a confirmed." Here I made my mistake. I should have headed back up to my squadron but it was too late anyways. Reports on the radio told me what had happened, the squadron had been jumped.
Weak in the background was Bud's voice,insistent "Morgan,Morgan get out, there are four following you down!"
I had to act fast. Should I go back up to the squadron 10,000 feet above me or should I try to dive away from those boys. I chose to go up as I was too low. At about 10,000 I was crossing the coast with the air speed indicator on the red line. They must have gone by the barrier [sound?] the way they caught up with me. Soon they were within range and the leader lined up to fire. When his wings lit up like neon lights I broke left and knew I was in it. He had three friends to help him, I was alone. Not more than a quarter turn later, he decided this was it. His first burst caught me in the engine. My plane shuddered with the punishing fire. I was spinning violently, the flames past my cockpit. Time to bail out. I called Bud but no answer, my radio was probably gone. Flicked the emergency IFF on, called "Mayday" three times and reached for the cockpit latch. Jammed! I pulled out of the spin. They were right behind me. Two more attacks and the wings of my plane looked like a bunch of scrap. As I happened to glance down once more into the cockpit, I noticed the small crowbar I always carried in case of a fire or jammed canopy on the ground. It worked! The pressure seemed to break a lock, setting me free.
The only instruments left were the altimeter and the airspeed, the former indicated 400 feet and the latter 175 [mph]. Too late to jump. But I had dumped my shoulder straps when the canopy had opened. I stood up in the seat, still holding the stick and the airplane hit the water with a terrific impact. Then all was still. My parachute came off easily and I automatically inflated my one man raft as the tail of my plane disappeared under the surface.
I knew that I was close to the Belgian coast, each swell lifted me up to reveal the skyline of a city, probably Ostende. Nine hours later , I was picked up by a Belgian fishing trawler and within 15 minutes, the German had boarded her and I was looking down the wrong end of a machine pistol.

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hello, I am curious how the P-47 was identified as 42-7920 above. Is it in the JFV book ?

The report by Morgan above is in line with a shot down W of Blankenberghe, and Morgan was flying the P-47D-5 42-8644.

Of the two killed pilots, 2nd Lt. Leland L. MacFarlane was flying the P-47D-1 42-7920 QP-N and 1st Lt. Gordon H. Whitlow the P-47C-5 41-6406 QP-H. For some reason, there is only one MACR for MacFarlane, the two other pilots have no MACR AFAIK.

A Belgian website had these two P-47s both crashing Maldegem and Moerkerke, respectively near the hamlets of Den Hoorn and Donk.
https://www.luchtvaartgeschiedenis.b...-bij-moerkerke
https://www.luchtvaartgeschiedenis.b...ldegem-heirweg

See map here: https://www.google.fr/maps/dir/Malde...1!2d51.2430573

This Belgian website also says that they collided. I don't know if this is taken from ground witnesses or if the fact that they crashed close to one another was the reason for this.

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Just to muddy the waters some more. From the following Website
http://www.8thafhs.org/new/get_mia_a...te=1943-05-21:

Missing 4th Fighter Group aircraft on 1943-05-21:
Dates may be UK-style: dd/mm/yy

#41-6406 - Republic P-47C-5-RE Thunderbolt
Group Squadron Sq Code A/C Code
4FG 334FS
MIA 1943-05-21
Notes 6406 (4th FG, 334th FS) shot down by fighter of JG 26/III near Ghent, Belgium May 21, 1943. Pilot KIA. Plane condemned Oct 31, 1944
Source Joe Baugher US Aircraft Serial Numbers - http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html

#42-7920 - Republic P-47D-1-RE Thunderbolt
Group Squadron Sq Code A/C Code
4FG 334FS
MIA 1943-05-21 - MACR #: 2663
Notes 7920 (4th FG, 334th FS) shot down by fighter of JG 26/III near Ghent, Belgium May 21, 1943. MACR 2663
Source Joe Baugher US Aircraft Serial Numbers - http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html

#42-8644 - Republic P-47D-5-RE Thunderbolt
Group Squadron Sq Code A/C Code
4FG 334FS
Name Lilliput
MIA 1943-05-21
Notes 8644 (4th FG, 334th FS, *Lilliput*) shot down by Obfw. Hermann Hoffmann in Bf 109G-3 of JG 54/ll off Ostend, Belgium May 21, 1943. Pilot POW
Source Joe Baugher US Aircraft Serial Numbers - http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html

Just as a side note a Ofw Hermann Hoffmann flew with 11/JG-26 and was KIA 8-17-43. Not sure if this is the same guy.

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

The P47 Thunderbolt Database has the following.

42-7920 - MACR 2663 MacFarlane - KIA. Fold3 has this MACR.
42-8644 - 'Lilliput' - Morgan - POW a/c coded "QP- N " later "QP-U" so I except at the date given here it would have been a/c "U".
41-6406 "QP-H" - Whitlow - KIA.

Joe Baugher has the following.

7920 (4th FG, 334th FS) shot down by fighter of JG 26/III near Ghent, Belgium May 21, 1943. MACR 2663
8644 (4th FG, 334th FS, "Lilliput") shot down by Obfw. Hermann Hoffmann in Bf 109G-3
of JG 54/ll off Ostend, Belgium May 21, 1943. Pilot POW
6406 (4th FG, 334th FS) shot down by fighter of JG 26/III near Ghent, Belgium
May 21, 1943. Pilot KIA. Plane condemned Oct 31, 1944

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

From the 334th FS line-up on 430521:
42-7920, MacFarlane, was QP-N
42-864, Morgan, was QP-U
41-6406, Whitlow, was QP-H
Morgan ditched in the North Sea, off of Ostend to become a POW. MacFarlane I have as subject to a Declaration of Death and Whitlow as killed in a crash at den Hoom, near Moerkerke (from J-5287, AV 157/43)

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hello Peter,

what is the source "J-5287, AV 157/43"?

Regards
Leo

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Documents at Archives 2 College Park.

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hello Peter,

thank you for the information.
Do you know the meaning of "J-5287, AV 157/43"?

Regards
Leo

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

The German LuftGaukommando collected information on crashed enemy aircraft and captured Allied aircrew. At the end of the war this material was captured, intact, I believe. It was divided into three parts; one part on American losses, one part on RAF/Commonwealth losses, and one part on Soviet losses; and each part was handed over to the corresponding government. It is my understanding that the RAF/Commonwealth material is still held by the Air Historical Branch, and is not open to the public. Whether the Soviet material is open to the public I have no idea. The US material is available in NARA II (Archives II) in College Park, Maryland. It is in Record Group 242, and consists of probably over 500 boxes. AV records refer to captured Americans, mostly bombers, from France and Germany. J refers to captured American fighter pilots. ME refers to captured Americans in the MTO area. These records are the original German forms. After each of these sections are translations into English. All of these reports are generally on very flimsy paper, requiring careful handling. In addition, a large amount of the LuftGauKommando records are found in the corresponding MACR file, which are also at College Park, but only available to the public on microfiche cards (3 MACRs per fiche). Due to the great interest in the MACRs it was felt that excessive handling of the MACRs would cause damage.

There is a paper index to the names in the LuftGauKommando records, which is not online.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hello Frank,

I thank you for your explanation and the answer of my question to Peter.

Regards
Leo

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

A lot of interesting replies which basically confirm what we already know about the three USAAF losses that day.

However it does not get us much further with regard how these losses occured.

Beside Caldwell, who assigned all three losses to JG 26, we have still not got any closer than before.

Yes an Ofw Hoffmann 11./JG 54 (11./JG 26 was known as 11./JG 54 on the date in question) seems to be named in the microfilms. If he is the same individual as Ofw Hermann Hoffmann, at least Caldwell did not make the connection, or maybe he simply chose to leave out all claims made by 11./JG 54? Neither has Johannes Mathews made any connection with Hermann Hoffmann

Even worse, we still don't know why Prien and Friends exchanged Hoffmann against Rathenow.

Unfortunately none of our German friends has chosen to comment the topic.
I will send Johannes an e-mail and ask if he can look into this in more depth from the German side.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

All

Johannes has kindly answered me and advice that the microfilms clearly states a Hoffmann (no given name) from 11./JG 54 was making a claim vs a Thunderbolt on this day.

This is the only claimed Thunderbolt and it is, at least not at the present, possible to identify any further claims. Rathenow is only listed as making a claim for a B-17 earlier during the day.

Which Hoffmann it was can only be a matter of speculation, so I leave that out of the equation and unless someone has a FB to prove his point, it will probably remain a speculation only.

Why and from where Team Prien has received details which made them change Hoffmann into Rathenow is unknown by Johannes, and unless one from the team clearly state why and what sources have been used, at least I will continue with Hoffmann for that claim. The microfilms are not Gospel and we all know Johannes has found several discrepancies, so Hoffmann may after all be wrong, but if so we need proof and not just statements.

Neither is it possible to verify Caldwell's claim that all three Thunderbolts were shot down by JG 26. Did two of them collide? That is also possible, but so far there is no proof of that either.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hello Stig,

according to the JFV volumes Fw/Ofw Hermann Hoffmann from 4./JG 26 had seven confirmed victories. The first on 18 May 1940, the last on 29 April 1942.

Damage:
6 December 1941 4./JG 26 Ofw Hermann Hoffmann verletzt Übungseinsatz, Bruchlandung Coxijde.
Fw 190 A-1 0050 70% weiße 2

Killed in action:
17 August 1943 11./JG 26 Ofw Hermann Hoffmann +
Absturz bei Pulibert, 10 km westlich Fruges, Aufschlagbrand 12.05 Uhr, 100%
Bf 109 G-6 20225 rote 7


JFV Vol. 10/IV to the events on 21 May 1943:

No victories and losses of III./JG 26 and 11./JG 54 (pages 577/579, 594/595).
The 11./JG 26 was renamed 11./JG 54 in the period from 17 February to 1 July 1943.

Footnote 514 on page 154:
„Caldwell, aaO, S.61/62, bringt drei P-47 Verluste der 4th FG in Verbindung mit dem Einsatz der III./JG 26, doch traten diese tatsächlich im Luftkampf mit der I./JG 1 ein – vgl. oben Teil 10/I, S. 111“

Obviously the research team has found out, that the P-47 was not shot down by Ofw Hoffmann.

You are right, a comment of the JFV researcher team would be helpful.

Regards
Leo

Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43
 

Hi Leo

Well, since the microfilms clearly state a Hoffmann (no given name, which means no Hermann is named) from 11./JG 54 as making a claim against a Thunderbolt that day, it would have been very nice of the JFV team to add a footnote why they suddenly discard that information and what evidence they have that Rathenow all of a sudden made that claim.

There is otherwise no lack of footnotes in their books :)

Cheers
Stig