Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a nice photo of a Breguet 14 at :


https://www.ebay.it/itm/photo-ww1-so...gAAOSw5Jded5y7


and a line up at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/photo-ww1-so...sAAOSw33Fed5mO


machines of Br.123?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hi Clint

Most of the photos this time are pretty indifferent to me.
The Bre 14s that I can see are all from BR 11 (Cocotte Rouge)

Probably the Caudrons seen on other photos are also from this unit when it was called C 11. (Don't believe BR 123 ever used Caudrons)

No idea from where the seller gets his BR 123 and that Nungesser should be involved with it. Seems he has basically labelled all his items more or less the same way.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello Stig,


Yes, I shouldn't have just accepted the seller's information.


At least one of the pictures is Nungesser's Nieuport, but seemingly no Br1123 connection at all. I kind of wonder if in fact the reference is to a serial number of a Breguet 14 that can't be sEen in the photo.



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay a photo of a Breguet 14 at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Aviation-pho...wAAOSwbuJegNah


Does anyone recognise the unit emblem?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay there is a nice photo of a Breguet AG 4 with a Deperdussin in the background at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/photo-aviati...sAAOSwrHNeypNT


Can anyone read the Breguet's serial number? BR.53 appears logical, at least I don't think its BR.52


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello Clint
At first glance, escadrille 228, BR 228 from July 1918.
Regards
Jean Schreiber

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello Jean,


Many thanks for the assistance.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Herllo,


Currently on ebay is a prewar photo of a Breguet operated by the RFC at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/RPPC-AVIATIO...0AAOSwM2ZezNkR


I'm not sure which type is shown as the RFC operated several before WW.I.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

This early type of the Breguet biplane came in many shapes and most of all different engines.

I checked my military RFC photos/pics and cannot see any of them looking quite like this. Possibly even a civil aircraft....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Stig,


Here one that definitely did serve with the RFC Breguet L.2 serial 212 at:




https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...929027320.html



Not sure if its original or not, a certain watch maker can make checking images on the net a bit challenging.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

It's been published before

I don't know if RFC changed their designation or not, but 'L' indicates a Renault engine (which it originally had), but it is seen here after a switch to an 85hp Salmson-Canton-Unné engine, so it should thus be an U1

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on Delcampe Breguet 14 A2 Serial 677 of BR 7 at:


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...310605197.html



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on delcampe are two Breguet pusher aircraft as follows:


Breguet Michelin ? No.92


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...914481187.html

Breguet Bre.5 No.476



https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...914471140.html


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on Delcampe and ebay are the following photos of Breguet 14 Aircraft :




Breguet 14 A2 No.717


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...878632597.html

Breguet 14 A2 No.795 of BR 11


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...914472412.html


Breguet 14 B2 No.1495 of BR 132


https://www.ebay.de/itm/2-grose-Foto...QAAOSwu7dey8Wt


Breguet 14 A2 No.1874


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...914427940.html

Breguet 14 B2 No.2005


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...914466259.html


Breguet 14 B2 No.3588

https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...878632162.html



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of an early Breguet, a U2 perhaps serial BR25 at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Avion-...cAAOSwsXFZI~nR



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on delcampe is a photo of a Breguet Bre.14 A2 possibly No.748 or 749 at:


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...234994241.html

Regards,

Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on delcampe is a photo of a Breguet 14 A2 possibly of BR 104 :


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...343718361.html






Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on delcampe is a photo of Breguet Bre.14 B2 No.1224 at:


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...095408400.html


This photo may have been seen before as a photo is referred to at :


http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...te_Breguet.htm


Can anyone identify the unit from the 'Trois bandes foncée sur le fuselage'?


Also on delcampe is a photo of a Breguet Bre.14 B2 tentatively captioned as No.421 at:


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...095409741.html I assume the number is partial as albindenis does notprovide any Bre.14 numbers lower than 664.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Clint

I suspect the '421' actually is No 1421.
At least I think I can see the digit 1 in front of the 421....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a nice photo of a Breguet-Michelin BM.IV at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-aviati...wAAOSwVaZfkX31


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on delcampe are two photos of Breguet machines:


Breguet Michelin BM 4 BR.392


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...120386838.html



Breguet Bre.14 B2L? No.6847


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...120456588.html


I have not previously seen B2L on the rudder of a Bre.14, but then I'm no expert and it may be more common place than I assume.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello Clint

The 14 B2L is the Liberty engine powered version of the 14 B2 bomber. According to Henri Lacaze book on Breguet planes, about 200 were built by Michelin and Bellanger (car manufacturer), after November 1918. According to his serial number, this one could come from Bellanger, 1919.

Regards

Jean

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Jean (Clint)

I confess I am not entirely happy with the two books Lacaze wrote for Lela Presse.
They lack far too much in detail on each type, especially production details.

Looking at what Alan Toelle wrote in his Windsock Data Special back in 2003 on the type 14, one gets a much better picture of its production and serial number ranges.

For instance we know three manufacturers were getting access to the Liberty engine, besiude the two already mentioned, Breguet themselves were also the recipients of a few. Since Breguet only built the reconnaissance model (A2) their Liberty powered aircraft were called Ap2.

Quantity delveries of the L-engine only started in September 1918 and by the end of November 428 had been delivered, Michelin received 200, Breguet 51 and Bellanger 38.
By June 1919 a total of 3575 engines had been received.

In Toelle's book there are pretty detailed production listings of all the eight companies that built the type up to June 1919.

From these listings it is not possible to make out how many Ap2 or B2L that were built, but I think it is a safe bet to say that neither Michelin nor Bellanger used the engine anywhere else, while Breguet might have done so.

All three companies built the type right up to June 1919 but at least back in 2003 it was not known how many by either Breguet or Michelin. Thus it is basically impossible even to make a guess how many of these were Liberty powered.

Lacaze guesstimate of 200 built by the end of WW 1 seems reasonable enough, but the final total must be much, much higher.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Jean/Stig,


Thank you both for the replies. I have to say I should have consulted Lacaze before posting. Unfortunately I chose the wrong reference work:(


Stig, when you say pretty detailed production listings in the Toelle work, are actual serial blocks given? I'm assuming not since you state that its not known how many B2L were produced by either Breguet or Michelin.



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Yes Clint

He tries to do so. The postwar production is much less discussed in the book and some yearly production numbers are still missing.

Since the Liberty engined versions seem to have been simply mixed in, there is no way (for me at least) to know if a given serial number block is for a let's say Bre 14A2 or a Bre 14Ap2 and so on.

It is possible the various engines used were applied to airframes in straightforward blocks, but if they are known, the book does not show that as far as I can see.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hi Stig,


Thanks. Next time I see the book on ebay I'll consider bidding.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Breguet 14 on its back at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/photo-origin...UAAOSwzehgHTG6


The insignia looks very like that used by N87/SPA87, but given recent insignia errors on my part, some mistake perhaps?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello Clint

The "white cat" can belong either to SPA 87, either to the training division of the Bourget airfield, from 1919 onwards. SPA 87 was disbanded August 7th 1919. On the available photos, the cat of the SPA 87 is without circle, and what will a Breguet do in a Spad Escadrille (but the military has is own logic) ? On the available photos of the training division, the cat is enclosed in a circle.

So, IMHO, we have more probably a plane of the trainçng division of the Bourget airfield.

Regards

Jean Schreiber

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello Jean,


I completely agree with your logic. The aircraft is from the Division d'entraînement du Bourget. Also, full disclosure, Bertrand H wrote to me off board with the same conclusion as yourself.


Regards,Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are two photos of damaged Breguet Bre 14 at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Kampffl...cAAOSwEJ9gQ9zV


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Kampffl...AAAOSwLrNgQ9wb


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are three photos of Breguet 14 B2 at:


Bre.14 B2 20933 :


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/234167798146...kAAOSwiR9hL5iV


Bre 14 B2 687*


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/334133268448...QAAOSwQ3BhL5jg


Bre.14 B2 :


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/334133270685...8AAOSwsXRhL5oy


The seller also has a Sopwith 1A2 129*


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/234167800282...YAAOSwAuthL5k5


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on delcampe are two photos of Breguet Bre.5 including No.438 at:


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...346070584.html


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...346071025.html


Other french WW.I aircraft from the same seller can be seen at:


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...es%5B0%5D=1922


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are two photos of Breguet Bre.14 A2 of the 9th Aero Squadron at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/27498604653...AAAOSwXBlhaNVN



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hi,

Thanks to the link given by Clint for Photo Album USAAS we have in this album the Breguet 14 n°5546 "5" of Escadrille BR35 at Tergnier :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/38449493712...gAAOSw1e1hjWP3

The incredible story of this flight is page 88 and following in the book "Les Géants de Morville" by Nicolas Clinaz

The passenger is H. Geyer german parliamentarian to assist in the signing of the Armistice.

Bertrand

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Breguet Bre.14 14 B2 688(2?) of BR 131 at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/393743851396...kAAOSwmU5hpJO9


Further BR 131 related photos can be seen at:


https://www.ebay.fr/sch/m.html?item=...=131e&_sacat=0


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Thanks Clint for sharing

#35 link 1 : yes read 6882

Re: Photo Breguet
 

I agree with Bertrand

Some of the other photos looks a bit post WW 1 to me.
Both the one coded 2 and the air-air shot of code 8 and 1.

Any thoughts?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hello,


Currently on delcampe are some rather nice photos of Breguet Bre.14 B2 as follows:


Breguet 14 A2 No.921
https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...397501851.html


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...397501278.html


Breguet 14 A2 No.834
https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...397498800.html


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...397500066.html



No.834 has a familiar marking on the tail which in a revised fashion would enjoy some,but not univeral popularity, on aircraft tails 20-25 years later.


Can anyone identify the unit to which these two machines belonged?



Further photos can be seen at:


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...s%5B0%5D=10976


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Clint

A pity the photographer never dared to move to the other side and give us at least one picture from that side.

No 921 (or is it 921x?) is clearly an A2. I personally think one last final digit is missing.

No 834 (more likely to just that) is also an A2 I think, since it lacks the windows below the gunner's station.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Breguet
 

Hi Stig,


They are both 14 A2 as you say. Believe it or not I was just about to edit my post.I shall do so now.With regard to the serial numbers,like yourself I regarded 834 as a full serial, given that they were photographed together, I thought that 921 was probably also a full serial,given its closeness to 834 as compared to 921* Though admittedly its impossible to be certain.


Regards,


Clint