National Archives Kew
 

I know that the ORBs can be found under the AIR 27s.

Once all crews had been debriefed an overall report was written by each of the individual Squadrons as to how the raid went, problems encountered, attacks by night fighters, flak etc.

I also understand a similar report was written by Bomber Command hierarchy.

Could someone tell me what these reports are called and under what AIR section i can find them for an imminent visit to Kew.

Any help would be very much appreciated,

Thanks in advance,

David.

Re: National Archives Kew
 

I have not seen any full debriefing reports at Kew but combat reports are in AIR 50.

Re: National Archives Kew
 

David,
There is a series of documents called Interception and tactics. I have a sample from the night 7/8 September 1941 and includes:

• Main targets
• Other targets
• Bombing particulars
• Weather
• Routes
• Combats
• Encounters & other A/C seen
• ???/searchlights/other aids to defence
• Wireless intelligence
• Observations
• Summary of observations
• Enemy claims/our losses

Information is divided per Group in most of the sections. Squadrons are not mentioned.
You can find these documents on
AIR14/2681 Vol. l, 1941 June- Sept.
AIR14/2682 Vol. ll, 1941 Oct.- Dec.
AIR14/2683 Vol. lll, 1942 Jan.- Apr.
AIR14/3741 Vol. lV,1942 May- Oct.
AIR14/3742 Vol. V, 1942 Nov.- 1943 Apr.
AIR14/3743 Vol. Vl, 1943 May-1944 Feb.
AIR14/3744 Vol. Vll, 1944 Mar.- Dec.
AIR14/3745 Vol. Vlll, 1945 Jan.- May
Regarding the combat reports you propably know already that you search the digital archive on http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/d...2aircombat.asp . I believe you can download these combat reports without cost when you visit Kew.

Regards,
Peter Hasselgren

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Thank you gentlemen very much for the information.

Very much appreciated,

David.

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi David,

the reports you refer to were called Forms Y and Z. The Forms Y were individual crew reports (practically none of which survive at Kew) sent from Squadrons to the Group HQ, while the Forms Z were collated reports by the Group HQs sent to BC HQ and the BC ORS.

The only Forms Z I have found at Kew (and I've searched extensively) are held in the Raid Plot: Night files in AIR 14. They are the copies telexed to the BC ORS. Sadly, the only files preserved are for selected months only between 1942-45, and even those don't include all raids during a month:

AIR 14/3213 Raid plots : night 1942 Apr.
AIR 14/3214 Raid plots : night 1942 July
AIR 14/3215 Raid plots : night 1942 Oct.
AIR 14/3216 Raid plots : night 1943 Mar.
AIR 14/3217 Raid plots : night 1943 Apr.
AIR 14/3218 Raid plots : night 1943 July
AIR 14/3219 Raid plots : night 1943 Aug.
AIR 14/3220 Raid plots : night 1943 Oct.
AIR 14/3221 Raid plots : night 1944 Mar.
AIR 14/3222 Raid plots : night 1944 Apr.
AIR 14/3223 Raid plots : night 1944 June
AIR 14/3224 Raid plots : night 1944 July
AIR 14/3225 Raid plots : night 1944 Sept.
AIR 14/3226 Raid plots : night 1944 Nov.
AIR 14/3227 Raid plots : night 1945 Jan.


Some Forms Z (only maybe one or two per file) are occasionally misfiled with another type of Group summary in the files:


AIR 14/3063 Group summaries of operations during day 1944 June
AIR 14/3064 Group summaries of operations during night 1944 June
AIR 14/3065 Group summaries of operations during day 1944 July
AIR 14/3066 Group summaries of operations during night 1944 July
AIR 14/3067 Group summaries of operations during day 1944 Aug.
AIR 14/3068 Group summaries of operations during night 1944 Aug.
AIR 14/3069 Group summaries of operations during day 1944 Sept.
AIR 14/3070 Group summaries of operations during night 1944 Sept.
AIR 14/3071 Group summaries of operations during day 1944 Oct.
AIR 14/3072 Group summaries of operations during night 1944 Oct.
AIR 14/3073 Group summaries of operations during day 1944 Nov.
AIR 14/3074 Group summaries of operations during night 1944 Nov.
AIR 14/3075 Group summaries of operations during day 1944 Dec.
AIR 14/3076 Group summaries of operations during night 1944 Dec.
AIR 14/3077 Group summaries of operations during day 1945 Jan.
AIR 14/3078 Group summaries of operations during night 1945 Jan.
AIR 14/3079 Group summaries of operations during day 1945 Feb.
AIR 14/3080 Group summaries of operations during night 1945 Feb.
AIR 14/3081 Group summaries of operations during day 1945 Mar.
AIR 14/3082 Group summaries of operations during night 1945 Mar.
AIR 14/3083 Group summaries of operations during day 1945 Apr.
AIR 14/3084 Group summaries of operations during night 1945 Apr.
AIR 14/3085 Group summaries of operations during day 1945 May
AIR 14/3137 Group summaries of operations: night 1944 Apr.- May

Searching for them in these files would be labourous for little reward.

Anyway, I've attached a PDF with data extracted from Group Form Zs - I presume this is the type of information you are seeking.

Cheers

Rod

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Thanks Rod for posting that useful information.

Even though I have explored several different series of BC records at Kew, those that you have highlighted are still new to me. I'll take a look next time I am there.

I have found several interesting documents in the series AIR24.
They include raid reports, interception summaries, copies of K reports, reports on armaments, tactics, supply, and copies of letters sent between (for example) Harris and Portal.

I thoroughly recommend the use of a digital camera. It increases the amount of data you can during a visit massively.

Regards

Mike

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Mike,

thanks for the interesting reply. In looking through AIR 24, have you ever seen a specific monthly report entitled: 'Supplementary Narrative of Operations"? The surviving groups of these reports, scattered in various AIR files, are woefully incomplete...

Cheers

Rod

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Rod

To give you one example;
From Air24/272

"Night Raid Report No.588
Copy Number 22
Bomber Command Report on Night Operations
26/27th April 1944
Essen: Schweinfurt: Villenueve St George: Hamburg: Chambly, etc."

Main body of report is 5 pages then 2 tables of sorties, losses, combats etc, 1 route map and at least one bomb plot (Schweinfurt).

The other operations reports that I have seen may well have been titled 'Summary Narrative' but I was mostly on the look out for other types of reports so didn't pay close attention.

I would say that there is good coverage of operations within this series.
I have concentrated on 1944 where each month is generally covered in three volumes, the last of which seems to contain the miscellaneous collection of documents e.g. reports on training, Ministry/Command correspondence, K reports etc.

Most likely the operations reports can also be found in AIR14 and I think virtually all of the K reports (loss of bomber aircraft) are copies of those in AIR14 also. Last time I was looking in AIR24 I made a note of all the K report aircraft serial numbers I came across, all but one I found in a list of AIR14 reports.

Regards

Mike

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Mike,

thanks for the answer. The likes of the K Reports, Inteception Tactics Reports, Ingelliegence Narrative of Operations reports all seem to exist in dublicate, even triplicate at TNA.

The 'Monthly Supplementary Narrative of Operations' is a gem for which not even one complete set appears to be preserved (see AIR 14/3433 for a fragmented set from 8/43-5/45; another fragment exists in AIR 50). What is so unique about this report, especially considering that the AIR 50 series is incomplete and has even been irrepairably vandalised, it that it lists and summarises all Bomber Command air combat claims accepted by BC HQ (as opposed merely to claims submitted) and tallies with the figures presented to the Air Ministry after the end of the war and considered official.

Cheers

Rod

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Rod,

Apologies for the belated reply. Many thanks once again for your help and support, it's very much appreciated.

Hope you're well, look forward to seeing you again, sometime in the future.

All the very best,

David.

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Rod,

Do you have any idea about how many pages there are in AIR 14/3433?
I have a copy of 'Monthly Supplementary Narrative of Operations' from March 43 (AIR 50/294) - 3 pages, as you mentions it list claims with identification letter of A/C and squadron but no names of gunners or pilots.
In AIR 50 there are also some documents called "H.Q. No. X Group: summary of encounters with enemy aircraft". I have found these for 3, 4, 8PFF and 100 Groups but only in fragments.

Regards,
Peter Hasselgren

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Peter,

the file AIR 14/3433 has 99 pages, which encompasses the reports from August 1943 to May 1945.

As you know, AIR 50/294 is supposed to have the reports from 01/1943 to 04/1943.



Apart from the two TNA files, there is also a file at NARA in the US that has the reports from 10/44 to 01/45. A file at The Australian War Memorial in Canberra has one report, which is already found in the TNA files.

Thus, assuming that the report series commenced from January 1943 (and it may have actually started much earlier), it was issued monthly until the end of the war. There should be at least 29 monthly reports. From the known archived sources, however, eight of the 29 reports are not preserved, these being:

05/1943, 06/1943, 07/1943, 05/1944; 06/1944; 07/1944; 08/1944, and; 02/1945.

What I do know is that there were at least 25 distributed copies of this monthly report circulated to various commands/groups/units, plus copies to all Bomber Command Stations. I'm just surprised that at least one complete set doesn't appear to have survived.

Cheers

Rod

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Rod,

Thanks for the info about AIR 14/3433. I plan to order copies and now I know how much it will cost.

Maybe some of the missing documents can be found among the Appendices for some unit. I don´t think there has been so many searching for this information. After all very little has been written about claims by non-fighter units. I´m doing a research on claims by New Zealand air gunners and sometimes it´s very difficult to find correct information. Of course shoting down enemy enemy a/c never was the main business of the bomber units.

I assume that some of the information from the missing 'Monthly Supplementary Narrative of Operations' can be found in the 'Interception and Tactics'. At least these cover the complete period from June 41 to May 45. Have you done any research on these documents?

Cheers
Peter

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Peter,

thanks for the reply. I've worked extensively with the Interception Tactics Reports, and while some info is available on claims, it is only a summary of original, unassessed claims. The monthly Supplemenatry Narratives were issued around 15 days after the end of the month (whereas the IT Reports were issued a few days after the raid in question), and are the only document containing a list of claims accepted by BC HQ.

For my own area od research, the Supplementary Narratives often have the only information on claims because Bomber Command combat reports for non-Mosquito units for the 1945 period were mostly either not preserved in AIR 50, or have been stolen from the archive.

You are right that some of the missing Supplementary Narrative reports may be buried in some file, but I have yet to discover them. There are still a few relevant files I haven't checked, but I'm not hopeful.

Cheers

Rod

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Rod,

Thanks, your comments are very valuable for my own research. I have a final question about the Interception Tactics Reports. Do you know if every raid including daylight operations are covered in these documents? I am especially interested in the daylight attacks on Brest in 1941. This period has very few remaining Combat Reports. At least for the squadrons I have researched.

Cheers
Peter

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Peter,

I have not worked with the IT Reports from the early war years, but note that the series in the bound volumes did not commence until April 1941. At least in the late war years, each report covered a 24-hour period, so both day and night raids were covered. That doesn't mean it was so in the early reports, and I expect that the format of the report developed over time. It may be that the early reports only covered night raids.

The precurser to the IT Report appears to have been a report entitled, "Phenomena Connected to Enemy Night Tactics", which commenced in Aug 1940, but appears to be only concerned with night raids (see AIR 14/627-628; 634-635)

In addition to the IT Reports, there are also the final Raid reports, but these don't appear to have commenced prior to Dec 1941, after the BC ORS was established in Sep 1941.

There are the Day Bomb Raid sheets (see AIR 14/3360-3364) for 1939-42, but these may not have much on enemy interceptions.

Cheers

Rod

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Rod,

Once again thank you. There seems to be more information than I expected about the Bomber Command claims if you just know were to look.

All that remains is to find the same information for the bomber units in the Mediterranean area.....

Cheers
Peter

Re: National Archives Kew
 

Hi Peter,

in terms of accepted claims, the 'official' figures are known; in a memo dated 28/06/1945 (*) to all Groups the SASO Bomber Command stated:

"The following figures, which have been agreed with the Air Ministry, show the total number of Enemy aircraft destroyed in air combat by Bomber Command during the period of the war, 1939-1945."

(under column headings of Year, Des, Pro, Dam)

1939 17-0-0
1940 93-2-3
1941 87-39-68
1942 74-45-59
1943 241-91-294
1944 536-108-379
1945 143-25-94

Having worked with the 1944-45 figures, I can state that the key to unravelling these figures are the BC Monthly Supplementary Narratives of Operations and the monthly BC Casualties and Claims reports (the former provides data on the claims and confirms monthly totals, while the latter confirms the monthly totals). The figures are not simply an aggregate of all submitted claims, but those accepted/confirmed by BC HQ after assessment, with the application of some (as yet) unknown criteria.

(*) Note - the final Monthly Supplementary Narrative report was issued on 15/05/1945 and the final Casualties and Claims report was issued on 18/05/1945.

Cheers

Rod