Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello there Gentlemen,
one of the most difficult tasks in airwar enthusiasm is determining the I-16 top ace. Possible candidates are Shestakov, Muravitzkiy and Pilipenko. Lately, I concentrated on Vasilii Golubyev. The following two wonderful websites are quite helpful: http://www.cieldegloire.com/015_golubyev_v_f.php http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/golubev.htm Unfortunately, none of them features a full list of Golubyev's 39+12sh kills and the kills indicated match only loosely :-( I tried to merge the two lists and indeed a 51-kill list evolved: 1. 28.06.1941 Ju 88 2. 11.07.1941 Bf 109 3. 26.07.1941 Bf 109 4. 1/6 11.08.1941 Bf 109 5. 11.08.1941 Bf 110 6. 1/2 14./15.10.1941 Ju 88 7. 24.10.1941 I-153 8. 24.10.1941 I-153 9. 1/2 24.10.1941 Bulldog 10. 1/2 01./02.11.1941 Hurricane 11. 02.11.1941 Hurricane 12. 07.12.1941 Bf 110 13. 12.12.1941 Ju 88 14. Dez 41 He 111 15. 21.12.1941 Bf 109 16. 27.12.1941 Ju 87 17. 12.03.1942 Bf 109 18. 12.03.1942 Bf 109 19. 1/6 12.03.1942 Hs 126 20. 13.03.1942 Bf 110 21. 14.03.1942 Bf 109 22. 19.03.1942 Ju 88 23. 1/6 19.03.1942 He 111 24. 1/2 31.03.1942 Bf 109 25. 21.04.1942 Ju 88 26. 1/3 16.05.1942 Ju 88 27. 16.05.1942 Bf 109 28. 28.05.1942 He 111 29. 1/2 28.05.1942 He 111 30. 29.05.1942 Ju 87 31. 1/4 29./30.05.1942 Ju 87 32. 03.06.1942 Bf 109 33. 10.01.1943 Fw 190 34. 12.01.1943 Bf 109 35. 15.01.1943 Fw 190 36. 02.04.1943 Bf 109 37. 13./14.04.1943 Fw 190 38. 15.04.1943 G.50bis 39. 21.04.1943 G.50bis 40. 21.04.1943 G.50bis 41. 28.05.1943 Bf 109 42. 28./29.05.1943 Ju 88 43. 29.05.1943 Ju 88 44. 29.05.1943 Ju 88 45. 02.06.1943 Fw 190 46. 20.08.1943 Brewster 47. 20.08.1943 Brewster 48. 06./07.02.1944 Bf 110 49. 23./24.02.1944 Bf 110 50. 05.03.1944 Fw 190 51. 28.06.1944 Fw 190 However, it features only 10 of his 12 shared kills. Could anybody please help me to identify the other two shares ? Have a nice Tuesday, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hi,
i have: 12.03.42 Destroyed Me 109F I-16 4 Gu IAP-KBF WkNr 8347 Oberfeldwebel Robert Behr (4./JG 54) 12.03.42 Destroyed Me 109F I-16 4 Gu IAP-KBF WkNr 8997 del Unteroffizier Hans Schwarzkopf (1./JG 54). from: http://www.rkka.es/Otros_articulos/2...1_arcitulo.htm it's in Spanish language and i really don't know if the info is totally reliable.... regards |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello GMichalski,
you're right. The incident is described in the OSPREY volume by Maslov. It's also depicted on its cover. Strangely, this books indicates 19 I-16 kills for Golubyev, whereas Polak in STALIN'S FALCONS reports his Jun41-Jan43 kills to have been scored in the I-16. This would add up to 35 kills in my list, including at least 10 shared. Have a very nice Friday, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
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hi, knusel, lemme try to answer it ;)
those victory claims from the link (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/golubev.htm) u quoted r actually from the book "Победы сталинских соколов"(Victories of Stalin's Falcons) by Mikhail Bykov, published in 2008. but little might u know that Bykov amended part of contents and a revised copy got published in 2014, which is called "Все асы Сталина" (All aces of Stalin). and in his new book, Vasiliy Golubyev's claims were 17+15. and another fact clarified from this book is the fighter type once he used: 6/41-2/42 was I-16 and 2/42-5/45 were I-16, La-5, La-7. and here's the complete list from that book uploaded to the attachement. hope it helped to u regards from shanghai |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Dear Stukapilot,
thanks for that helpful input. I didn't know that airaces.narod.ru bases on Bykov's work. I've studied the list you attached and found that the listed kills add up to 17+16sh, not 17+15sh as indicated. At home, I merged the victory dates of that list together with the dates given by Polak, Maslov and airaces.narod.ru. => The sum ist 48+18sh, which indicates that some dates might be wrong or not confirmed. I wish you a splendid weekend, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Knusel,
Previous posts on the forum have indicated that the Polak book is not particularly reliable and the Bykov volumes should be seen as replacing it. Nick |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
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best regards |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello Stukapilot & Nick,
you're probably right. STALIN'S FALCONS is full of inaccuracies :-( However, it's still the best book on the German market with the largest amount of data. I really should consider acquiring Bykov's work abroad (+learn Russian). I also think about buying this one: https://www.amazon.de/dp/0764304763/...I37FHUZSPVQ74W Can you tell me if it's worth the money ? Have a nice Thursday, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hi Michael, yes, I have that one in my collection. I wouldn't say it is the be all and end all of books on the subject but I do feel like I got my money's worth because it was helpful with potted histories of a lot of the units as well as biographies much like Stalin's Falcons. If it counts for anything, nobody I know of has discredited it yet.
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Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
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all those books u mentioned r in my personal collection so my personal idea, that bykov's book is worth every penny of it. it's a reference book like 4 volumes of "luftwaffe aces" published by wingleader, name-birth/death-rank-units-type used-claims-date-location-type destroyed-comments. bylov spent more than 10 years to collect those trivial files and compile them into a thick coffe table book. it's not so expensive i think, i ordered one copy from Ozon and got it after 3 weeks, app.50 euros in total i remember. as stalin's eagles, i have to say the info from this book is smidgen dated, but in general it's a good book about soviet letchiki in patriotic war. as we all know, schiffer's books vary greatly and this book is 3.5-4 stars as my rating. btw, u could download its scanned PDF from internet for a brief reading before purchasing a copy. WARNING: delete it after reading. copyright :) |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello Stukapilot,
sounds awesome! Are all of Bykov's books in Cyrillic only ? I wish you a splendid weekend, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
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regards |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Sadly, that book ain't availabe in Germany yet.
Can you please have a look for me if the decimals of the shared kills of Лука Захарович Муравицкий are given ? Cheers, Michael |
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ps: if u need this book, someone might order this copy from ozon and send it to your address |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Dear Stukapilot,
thanks for the Muravitskiy list. I wonder what takes longer: waiting for the English translation of that amazing book to appear in the German amazon or learning Russian and trying to get it now... Have a nice Tuesday, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello,
Another way of getting access to Bykov's book, is buying it on Google Play. This will give you a digital version of it for around 8.5 euro. Best wishes/Håkan |
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could you give me a link ? Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello,
The easiest way is to go to play.google.com (you need to have a Google-account (free)) and the on books, search for Михаил Быков. Best wishes/Håkan |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Dear Stukapilot,
according to the Bykov lists you posted,
Thanks in advance, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello,
Grisetvets according to Bykov is published on my site: http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/soviet_gritsevets.htm Best wishes/Håkan |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello Håkan,
thanks for updating your Gritsevets victory list according to Bykov's book. Do you think it will ever be possible to reveal the decimals of all of Gritsevets' shared kills ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
M.Y.Bykov's and Alex Osokin's data - rating (on 19.11.2015):
I-16 1. Pidtykan Ivan Dmitrievich = 12 + 10 2. Safonov Boris Feoktistovich = 12 + 5 3. Kharitonov Vasily Nikolaevich = 10 + 16 4. Pilipenko Ivan Markovich = 10 + 13 5. Baranov Mikhail Semenovich = 10 + 3 |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello Kirill,
thanks for your post. Could you tell me the decimals of the shared kills of Pilipenko ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello Michael,
You can count them yourself here: http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/p/pilipenko.htm Hope this helps, Ota |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Yeah, that makes a I-16 score of 11,46-12,96 for Pilipenko. Thanks.
Will we ever know all decimals of the shared kills of Gritsevets ? Michael |
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Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello Stukapilot,
thanks a lot for posting. I see again a Spain score for Shestakov of 2+1sh kills. Can you tell me who "invented" the Shestakov Spain score of 8+31sh that is so often to be found ? What is the story behind that ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
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Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello there Gentlemen,
in the quest for the top I-16 ace, I compiled the following most promising candidates and their I-16 scores: #Golubyev ---Polak: 23+12 ---Bykov: 5+16 #Shestakov ---Polak: 11+39 ---Bykov: 5+9 #Muravitzky ---Polak: 12+35 ---Bykov: 5+10 #Pilipenko ---Polak: 13+29 ---Bykov: 13+10 #Gritsevets ---Polak: 14+26 ---Bykov: 9+24 Cheers, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Good evening,
the ranking I-16 pilot is one of the top aces that is most difficult to determine, because
Based on this I tried to compare the I-16 scores of the most promising aces:
Thanks for your input, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
...according to this website
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/g/golubev_vf.htm Vasilii Golubyev has a total of 17+16shared kills only. Can anybody tell me the story behind the well-known photo that shows him in front of an aircraft with 39 victory stars ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Good morning,
one of the top I-16 pilots is Boris Safonov. http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/s/safonov.htm I've just read "Boris Safonov, L'As du Grand Nord" by Yourii Rybin. He indicates that Safonov scored 13 kills until October 1941. I think this includes his kill on 5Aug which seems to have been confirmed belatedly but neither his kill on 6Aug nor his group kills. Cheers, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Good evening Gentlemen,
Safonov is the 3rd or 4th ranking I-16 ace depending on the decimals of Gritsewets' group kills. Will we ever know these ?: rank/name/I-16 kills (group kills counted as decimals) 1. Грицевец Сергей Иванович = 10-21 [9+24] 2. Пидтыкан Иван Дмитриевич = 16,14 [12+10] 3. Харитонов Василий Николаевич = 14,48 [10+16] 4. Сафонов Борис Феоктистович = 13,83 [13+5] according to Yourii Rybin 5. Пилипенко Иван Маркович = 12,96 [10+13] 6. Оскаленко Дмитрий Ефимович = 12,45-12,95 [12+3] 7. Абрамов Пётр Петрович = 7,42-14,92 [5+25] 8. Игнатьев Николай Петрович = 12,51 [8+13] 9. Цоколаев Геннадий Дмитриевич = 11,95 [9+10] 10. Кравченко Григорий Пантелеевич = 11,79 [11+5] ? 11. Кузнецов Николай Фёдорович = 11,57 [8+11] 12. Баранов Михаил Семёнович = 11,33 [10+3] Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello Michael,
The short answer on Gritsevet is probably no! There are 12 known group claims from his time in Spain that are given as only shared and nothing more. Two more is credited as shared with another pilot (1/2). To make the solving of this even more improbable is that according to his "official" record (the one used for decorations etc.) he is credited with another 10 shared victories with no info on whatsoever. With so much time pasting since the end of this conflict the probability to new info to cover all this is slim. The other approach is the one taken by Johannes and Nick Hector in their tread on another place here on TOCH, which is most interesting! Best wishes/Håkan |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Good morning Håkan,
that's a pity. Can you tell me how many pilots were involved in the first kill of Dmitrii Oskalenko ? http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/o/oskalenko.htm Have a nice Thursday, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello again,
Unfortunately not, this is also a claim given as just "shared". But this is perhaps solveable by some of the real Russian expert on this forum since the ORB for 194 IAP is perhaps available. Best wishes/Håkan |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Good afternoon Håkan,
do you know how many pilots took part in the group kills that were scored by Pyotr Abramov in 1939 ? http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/a/abramov_pp.htm Kind regards, Michael |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Hello again,
These claims were also only credited as "shared". As I've said before - buy Bykov's book (Михаил Быков - Все асы Сталина 1936–1953 гг.) on Google Play and then you can search it. The price is very low (~7€) and you can also look into the books before you buy them. My Russian is non-existing but it's easy to search the book for names, dates, types, units etc. Best wishes/Håkan |
Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
Good morning Håkan,
I'm considering to buy the book and 7Euro is definitely not too expensive for such an opus. https://play.google.com/store/books/...d=mGw5AwAAQBAJ But I'm also reluctant to possess books that I cannot read and hope it'll be translated one day. Cheers, Michael |
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