Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Hey all,

Just made my account after discovering this site and I found it quite interesting and informative so thought I'd give it a shot in seeing if you guys would be able to help with a little research project I'm undertaking.

I'm currently do a research paper on the Battle of Britain and the accompanying variables which ultimately lead to the British victory.

I've analyzed and come up with most points on the Allied side of things, namely, the dynamics which factored into Britain's victory (i.e. leadership, radar, etc). Although, from my research so far, I've found that Germany, and the Luftwaffe as a whole, cannot be disregarded as having an integral part in Britain's victory.

Essentially, I'm looking at the ways in which Britain both helped herself to victory, but just as much, the ways in which Germany helped Britain due to miscalculations and overall costly decisions.

I've searched the web inside and out (boy is it difficult), and have really found a hard time falling upon a primary source from the German side which can explain clearly the role of the Luftwaffe, or the general German strategy in regards to the Battle of Britain.

Does anyone have an reputable links in terms of primary sources (revolving around the Battle of Britain on the Axis end of things, mainly the Luftwaffe) or scholarly articles published in the last 20-30 years or so which can contribute to my paper?

Also, any input on the matter would be extremely helpful as well seeing as I really have no idea the extent to which Germany really facilitated her own defeat, just that she did have some cause in it.

I'd also like to add that I wouldn't be able to officially cite your responses, not that anyone's opinion is wrong, irrelevant, or meaningless, it's just that university professors just don't take random knowledge off the internet as "evidence" or "scholarly content" :)

Thanks in advance!

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

An interesting book is "Luftwaffe: Strategy for Defeat" by Williamson Murray.
It explains a lot of things regarding the BoB seen from the German point of view.

Williamson Murray, Ph.D. in military history and Professor Emeritus of the Ohio State University.
I think you can cite him...

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

And "The Most Dangerous Enemy" by Stephen Bungay which devotes a lot of space to Germany's lack of any coherent strategy in the Battle.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I would add to your required reading list The Breaking Wave by Telford Taylor (Weidenfeld & Nicolson 1967) and, if you can get hold of a copy, The Rise & Fall of the German Air Force (1933 to 1945) a restricted Air Ministry 'Pamphlet' issued by Air Vice-Marshal Sir T.W. Elmhirst KBE, CB, AFC, the Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Intelligence) in 1948.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

That one's available as a free pdf download, if you look hard enough.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

..how are your foreign language skills...? Bungay et al present entirely 'conventional' views of the BoB - a number of recent works from German/continental authors argue that the Battle of Britain wasn't a 'real' battle at all -the Germans had no intention of invading England, not that they had the means- so the Germans certainly didn't lose it....(Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe Teil 4/I Einsatz am Kanal und über England, Prien, Stemmer, Rodeike). I have to say the authors do a great job of highlighting some of the more misleading 'primary' sources, such as Galland's memoir.....

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

So Germany had no intention of invading Britain.
Why then did they disrupt vital movement of goods on most inland waterways of Europe in order to assemble the large invasion fleet of barges???. Some were converted to carry tanks and a large amount of stores were assembled on the docksides of the Channel ports.
What was Operation Seelowe all about ???

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Politucal pressure first and foremost IMHO.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Online @ http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/aul/aup...Murray_B12.htm

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

First, I think Bungay makes a number of points about command and control you won't find elsewhere, also about the absence of a coherent German strategy.

To say the Germans didn't lose implies that they attained some definable objective. What then was that objective and in what sense was it attained? What did Germany achieve by fighting the battle? What was gained for the expenditure of about 2000 aircraft and their crews?

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Moving away slightly from the RAF v. Luftwaffe operations, but still focusing on that period and giving good food for thought is

Derek Robinson Invasion, 1940 Robinson, London, 2005

It deals more specifically with the planned invasion, but does address certain aspects of what it seems to be you are looking at with regards to a somewhat mishaped and at times aimless approach by the Germans to the air battle.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

..Isn't the absence of a strategy perhaps an indication that the 'battle', as we Brits like to understand it, was never any such thing in German eyes..ie the Luftwaffe didn’t lose the ‘battle’ (at least that is my understanding ) because there was no ’battle’ worthy of the name. In this respect Galland’s memoir ‘The First and the Last’ comes in for sharp criticism from the source mentioned in my previous post. While Galland writes that Luftwaffe fighter pilots regularly flew two or three sorties/day throughout the course of the battle, Prien puts forward the following figures which paint a completely different picture; that the average Jagdflieger flew no more than 50 sorties during an 85 day period from 8 August to 31 October, contacting the enemy on only around 20 of these; that for around 20 days at the supposed height of the Battle there were no German aircraft at all in the skies of England; that when the bombers turned on London in September the 1,000 Luftwaffe aircraft of the British ‘official’ history were never more than 400; that on only two occasions (7 & 15 September) could the Luftwaffe put more than 300 bombers in the air; that on nearly 20 days of the ‘battle’ the Luftwaffe flew less than 200 sorties..all pretty minor league stuff as Meimberg points out in his memoir, especially in comparison with the later battle over the Reich. This was no attempt to bring Britain to her knees by an overwhelming application of force. The 'so-called' Luftschlacht über England was ‘a relatively small affair..’ (Prien quoting AJP Taylor..), perhaps no more than Hitler’s attempt to exert some political pressure on British public opinion in order to strengthen the hand of the ‘peace faction’ in particular..

Continental authors are scathing too at what they see as the ‘mythification’ of the ‘battle’ (cf Jean-Louis Roba's recent 'La bataille d'Angleterre'); the notion of the ‘The Few’, the Churchillian propaganda of the ‘We shall fight them etc..’ - I think Bungay is too though IIRC. The RAF fighter force was patently not 'The Few' - certainly not being inferior numerically to the Luftwaffe's, which had just lost 25% of its strength on the Continent. Churchill in particular (as former First Lord of the Admiralty responsible for the Dardenelles fiasco) knew full well that there was no chance of a sea-borne invasion prior to 1941 at the earliest, even if such a scheme was ever seriously contemplated (statements from Goebbels diaries suggest it wasn’t).

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Even if we assume there was no intention to land on the British soil (which seems logical), there is no reason to claim there was no Battle at all.
Mentioned statistics may be misleading, and I would not be surprised if average number of sorties for a RAF airman was lower than 50 (this will be different for Allies, as being more experienced they usually remained longer on operations). Nonetheless, there were days they were flying four times a day, in constant presence of Luftwaffe. Both period accounts and memories of Allied pilots mention, the period was particularly hard and exhaustive. Also, I would not say that loss of over 10 aircraft per day for both sides was insignificant. It was a major effort of the period, and cannot be compared to later 1000 aircraft raids.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I would reiterate my previous post. Why fill the canal ports with several thousand barges stripped from every river and canal in west Europe? Was it a fun exercise to make us laugh? At least it made a target for our bombers.

I lived about 7 miles from Dover, and 8 from Folestone, at that time. There were extensive preparations made for an invasion which was expected shortly because of the barges and the air activity. We were warned not to leave the village when the Huns came so that the army could have freedom of movement. They had seen the shambles in Belgium and France in May. I also remember being told (I was 8 years old at the time) "When (note when, not if) the Jerries come, you boys are to put sugar in their petrol tanks".

To us there was definitely an intention to invade, which they chickened out of when the 'invincible' Luftwaffe could not live up to the fat mans boasts.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Ah, the 'sogennante' Battle of Britain rears its head again, with an extensive 'lift' from one of the Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer/Bock books. Franek has got it spot on in his second paragraph. And an earlier poster poses questions regarding supplies/barges etc on the Channel coast in August/September 1940. Hmmm, let's waste a lot of staff time and aircrew time by fitting the Bf 110s of 1./Erpr. Gr. 210 with the Seilbomben device control box in the cockpit, and the frame and other accoutrements in stock on the airfield, and devote training time to teaching the crews how the device works, and issue them with maps of southern England showing the exact layout of the HT cable network and what the exact targets would be once the invasion was given the green light. Were the Germans just messing around doing such things? Or was it more a case of them being caught on the hop by the speed of their victory in the Western Camapign of May/June 1940, and so plans to subdue Britain permanently had not reached any kind of advanced stage? I tend to think it was the latter. Some pour scorn on the tenor of some of Churchill's speeches, but when he said (in so many words) that Hitler knew that he must defeat Britain or lose the war, he had it 100% correct, because simply by remaining in conflict with Germany it was going to result in the US of A entering the war sooner or later with the inevitable consequences that would entail given their industrial might.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, particularly when one wants to strike out with a 'revisionist' theory, which can be twisted every which way to suit an individual's particular taste.

Go to Cannock Chase, or the many cemeteries around Britain where the young RAF men were buried, and then say there was no Battle. Don't make me laugh...

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I repeat, what were they trying to achieve and did they achieve it? If the latter, was the gain proportionate to the human and material resources expended — let alone the economic cost of pulling all those barges off Europe's inland waterways and assembling them as sitting targets for the RAF bombers?

As for the "myth" the primary sources leave no doubt whatsoever that the British believed the threat to be absolutely real and imminent and deployed their resources accordingly. Maybe the Luftwaffe weren't trying their hardest but they were still losing aircraft faster than they could produce them and they appear to have gained absolutely nothing in return.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Peter,

Your reaction seems to illustrate the potency of the popular view of this period. Alone in the war, defiant in face of invasion and victorious in the air against all odds. The situation was just perfect, it is hard not to become mythical. It is unfortunate that this makes it difficult to accept any evidence to the contrary even if based on the highest echelons of the Nazi regime, military leadership or hard statistics.

At least one must accept that to fully understand the Battle of Britain also requires the German view of events, even if it doesn't fit the myth.

In the end few will disagree that the German effort was half hearted at best.

Prien is refreshing, so was the coverage in the new Werner Moelders biography by Kurt Braatz.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Ruy,
Perhaps you should answer this: "...Why fill the canal ports with several thousand barges stripped from every river and canal in west Europe? Was it a fun exercise to make us laugh?..."
and this: "...Hmmm, let's waste a lot of staff time and aircrew time by fitting the Bf 110s of 1./Erpr. Gr. 210 with the Seilbomben device control box in the cockpit, and the frame and other accoutrements in stock on the airfield, and devote training time to teaching the crews how the device works, and issue them with maps of southern England showing the exact layout of the HT cable network and what the exact targets would be once the invasion was given the green light. Were the Germans just messing around doing such things? Or was it more a case of them being caught on the hop by the speed of their victory in the Western Camapign of May/June 1940, and so plans to subdue Britain permanently had not reached any kind of advanced stage?...

You see, when you have discussed the latter issue with the Adjutant of the said unit at the time, you do tend to get the whole story of what was going on, and what was intended, the 'bigger picture' so to speak. Believe me, Wolfgang Schenck had the whole lot on it, wrote it down in detail for me. Karl Stoff, a 1. Staffel Bordfunker who would have operated the control box, was able to draw a diagram of the frame that was to be bolted to the underside of the Bf 110, and how the Seilbomben would be in place and released.Would the Germans go to this much trouble for no intention? I very much doubt it.

And you say: "...to fully understand the Battle of Britain also requires the German view of events..." Well, there's a German side of events that I would welcome your comment on (even if it doesn't fit the current myth of no invasion whatsoever).

Over to you, Ruy.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Sorry Ruy, I was just telling it as an 8 year old child experienced it. We knew we were always going to win because Churchill told us so. Sorry to be simplistic but we were bombed and strafed and needed to believe or we were lost.
To my mind there is no myth, the Germans lost a very, very close run battle, which they tried their hardest to win. We have to thank the foresight of setting up a proper control and command system, Fighter Command, and the English Channel for our survival.
The Germans may not have had the capability to have invaded but, at the beginning, they certainly thought that they could.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

John,

I don't have the energy to go 12 rounds on this one and thus am only willing to give some weak sparring jabs. Perhaps I am cynical but isn't history full of half hearted efforts that cost the lives of young men and look like the real deal from the bottom up?

For those who did the dying it was real enough, I give you that.

Not the first time the Nazi regime rode on a gamble, it needed blood and some substance to have any chance of succeeding.

Remember that although I may think the above, it doesn't mean I am blind to the suffering nor unwilling to recognise the effort, valor etcetera etcetera of the ordinary man on the ground or in the air. End of disclaimer.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Peter,

On second glance I would have chosen my words somewhat differently, not as condescending. For me it is an "academic" discussion, for you it is your past and to some extend still part of your present. Be sure that it was not my intent to be condescending.

Ruy

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Still no substantial reply to Peter's invasion barges, nor to my Seilbomben...

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

What was in all those 'barges'?

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

John,

Thanks for the extra challenge, you are not getting a substantial reply, so feel vindicated...

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

As far as I am concerned the German intention to invade was there, the spirit to do so was sadly lacking in some of the Wehrmacht hierarchy.

The only area that the Heer couldn't fight on was the English Channel and that is why control of the air was crucial. The major failings of German air intelligence only became obvious to them later on in the Battle period after which the cohesion of the Wehrmacht arms of service, that had worked fairly well together up to June 1940, began to fail. I feel certain that Goering honestly thought that the Luftwaffe couldn't fail to achieve their ultimate objective and, being the type of person he was at this stage of the war, had the energy, charisma and backing of the Fuhrer to convince his Generals of this.

Too many people studying this part of the war fail to consider many of the other things going on behind the scenes with other elements of the German state, things which took up a lot of manpower and other resources, which point to a genuine intention to invade. I don't want to even try to justify my comments on this here but suffice it to say that Kriegsmarine, Heer, SS, DRK and RAD records - to name but a few - are definitely worthy of study for this period.

By any stretch of the imagination the Battle of Britain, or whatever one wants to call that period, was indeed a battle even based purely on the amount of men, women, children, property and materiel lost.

David

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

"...Why fill the canal ports with several thousand barges stripped from every river and canal in west Europe? Was it a fun exercise to make us laugh?..."

Which, as I understand was the 1940 equivalent of taking most of the 44-tonne trucks off today's roads and assembling them in about half a dozen large car parks near the channel coast so that people can drop bombs on them.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I have read that a greater application of air power by Germany might make a difference. But it doesn't quite ring true. I did not know that some German pilots implied that the Battle of Britain was a minor skirmish. So I must ask, how many more planes needed to crash before it became a real shooting war?

I have yet to see it proven that flying more missions will compensate for a bad strategy or lack of one. I have seen it proven that such an approach will lead to higher losses.

The number of German aircraft and trained air crew that failed to return does not suggest their losses were sustainable without accepting a crippling decline in quality, quantity, or both. Had the Germans mounted combat flying sorties at a significantly higher rate, and for a longer period, the consequences would have been disastrous for the Luftwaffe and their plans on other battle fronts. They were about to be stretched thin, and a battering ram approach over England would only accelerate that process.

Revisiting the real or imagined intentions of Hitler and his gang is fascinating for the sake of argument, but it does not change that the Luftwaffe failed to gain air superiority over the United Kingdom in 1940.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

re the 'lift' - don't know whether you're trying to rubbish me or Prien with that comment - but at least I've read (& understood) his arguments in the original German, which is probably more than most can manage here, as the last poster has just indicated. I've often wondered how many of his readers actually share them. As Ruy says they're pretty interesting though (the stats especially). Be aware that there is a completely different view out there to yours, the original poster's & the 'standard' literature; a number of German authors (& German veterans) do have this view of the BoB as a 'minor' skirmish...as for the activities of 1./Erpr. Gr. 210 ..a small 'experimental' Staffel..the bigger picture..? I think not..

..as for the 'barges' argument. If I was presenting a less conventional view (cf. Jean-Louis Roba, 'La Bataille d'Angleterre') I suspect that the whole 'point' of the 'barges' was again as a means of exerting some 'political' pressure. Hitler's 'last appeal' etc indicates that the Germans were aiming at a 'peace' settlement- not invasion. Your point about the rapid end of the Westfeldzug is a good one - the Germans really didn't know what to do next with Britain, because they hadn't even planned for such an eventuality; they certainly didn't have the means to launch a full scale invasion when the priorities for Russia had already been defined..the British were simply expected to sue for peace at this stage, a process that could no doubt be aided by a 'demonstration de force'; harassing shipping in the Channel, sending a few hundred bombers & fighters over now & again and drawing up loads of barges where they could be photographed was all the Germans could do to try and influence such an outcome...

BTW I don't think these views diminish the achievements of the RAF one iota - the Luftwaffe got a bloody nose & Britain & Churchill weren't cowed but stayed in the war..until we were joined by the Russians a year later and the US 18 months after that..

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

"A few hundred" - oh, is that all? Given that a Gruppe could wreck an aerodrome or an aircraft factory, such numbers were hardly negligible.

"Now & then" - on how many days when weather permitted was at least one substantial raid not mounted?

Does anyone dispute that German fighter production was being outstripped by losses during the Battle? Did Fighter Command's strength increase or not?

And is anyone arguing that the Luftwaffe was the only air force in history to go over to night bombing because their daylight operations had been such a success?

P.S. the barges were not only photographed, they were taken out of productive use and were being converted to "landing craft." Troops were being trained for landing operations, something the British picked up from Ultra (which the Germans knew nothing of) rather than photo opportunities.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Falck Eins,
Not trying to rubbish either you or Jochen on the point. I've read the Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer/Bock volume in which they comment on the 'sogennante' (sp?) BoB, and if you were on this forum in its earlier guise, you will know that there was quite a heated discussion about the subject. Suffice it to say that the statistics show one side of an argument, but the authors conveniently omitted to say that NO fighting unit would be able to sustain combat every day for months, so their argument that only a certain percentage of days being used means that there was really no large scale battle is a total red herring (a load of bollocks in my parlance), and it should be held up as such.

It's great that you dismiss the Seilbomben with 1./210 as a 'small experimental Staffel', but you do not explain away what I have set down. Are you trying to dodge the issue completely, or just doing a diplomatic sidestep and hoping it will go away? You cannot dismiss out of hand the planning that took place within 1./210 with regard to a potential invasion. And I suppose in that vein, the words of Wolfgang Schenck mean nothing, simply because they do not accord with your (and possibly others) pre-determined views on the BoB? You can speculate all you want, but you cannot dismiss facts. If you know more than I do, then please tell me.
And the reason a lot of German authors dismiss the BoB as a minor thing is because their cherished Luftwaffe actually got their arse kicked, and they cannot stomach that happening so early in the war. Believe me, I've met some of them, and it beggars belief some of the views that were expounded to me (no names, no pack drill on this one). I know I've just written something that may not be totally acceptable to some people, but the fact is in recent years we've been railroaded by many outside factions, first in a total character assassination on Bomber Harris, and latterly on this revisionist shite that the BoB was only a minor skirmish, and the Luftwaffe didn't actually lose any kind of battle in the skies of England in 1940. I call bullshit on that, totally.

Ruy,
You got me on that last comment - brilliant!

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

John, Nick

between you & me you're probably right & I'm certainly with you 100% on Harris... but I'm interested in the other side's views too though, especially as Prien & Roba (to take two examples) haven't been translated and their views haven't rippled into our collective consciousness (or even that of the average enthusiasts). We've all grown up a bit since histories like 'The Narrow Margin' were published. The 'mythology' of the BoB has probably gone too far; I think even Bungay acknowledges that; there was no 'narrow margin', it wasn't even close...that's all I'm pointing out..

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I agree with what you say here. I have been fortunate enough to have delved into the other side quite a bit, and what I have written in previous posts merely reflects this. The point I make about 'their cherished Luftwaffe' is akin to my defending jibes made against Everton by Liverpool supporters, if that analogy may be applied.

I'll tell you what, the original poster should be delighted with the discussion that has taken place in this thread. If they can't feed off this, they can't feed off anything...

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I thought the situation was the German Army were told to invade, they said fine providing the invasion fleet (barges) can be protected from the British Navy, the German Naval Staff said after Norway we cant keep the British off unless the Luftwaffe controls the air . Goering said leave it to me and we all know the phases destroy the RAF over the Channel convoys, attack their airfields bomb London etc. At the time most people in the UK thought there would be an invasion which would have happened if the Luftwaffe had knocked out the RAF by August
In the end it looks like Hitler thought Britain could be left isolated while he went ahead with his main plan eastward expansion. It must not be forgotten that even with the strength of the US behind it the Normandy landings were touch and go. So the chance of Britain on its own mounting an invasion circa 1940 to Fortress Europe was a no go, making it look like an economical risk to Hitler to leave the UK isolated.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Well, there is always something called deception. If Germans were to convince Britons they want to invade them, they needed to do something more than to say about invasion. Wehrmacht had nothing to do, anyway, so some exercises would not cause any harm. Equipment necessary for an invasion may have been used elsewhere, so development was not as senseless as it may seem. Increased radio traffic was important as well. Germans were not that stupid not to know that there are spies around.
Whatever were intentions, and the actual role of the Soviet Union, the fact is that some authors claim that the Battle of Britain never occurred.
I have an insight into the Battle from pilot's perspective, and not strategic one, and based on that, this was not another ordinary period. For those men it was desperate struggle to counter enemy, and many of them never again flew so intense missions.
That said, attempts to revision history were undertaken much earlier, but now they are just utterly arrogant. And I do not mean natural increase of our knowledge, and reduction of propaganda's influence.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Sounds good, Brian!

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Sligthtly off topic here but...

I followed the path offered here previously, and picked up Williamson Murray´s book.
Looking at his tables on German losses in 1940, I was struck by one category of losses; destroyed on operations, but NOT due to enemy action.
What is this? It is not the so-called "operational losses" because that is a seperate category. So what is going on? This is by the way, the main cause of losses of Bf-109. Can anyone clarify what kind of bookkeeping is going on there. My first thought was 109s running out of fuel over the channel, but the category is large for the BofF.



Birgir Thorisson

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I would guess that the 109, with its horrible narrow track undercart, was a wonderful swinger. It would possibly have more than its fair share of landing accidents, especially with a tired, possibly wounded, or inexperienced pilot.
Anybody with experience of flying one care to comment?

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

..very unforgiving a/c on takeoff especially, no matter whether the pilot was a novice or a seasoned ace (Major Walter Hoeckner I./JG4, veered off the runway & crashed on takeoff, 25 August 1944 - 68 victories!). IIRC 109 takeoff & landing accidents accounted for around huge numbers of machines (30-40 /month ?)

as for running out of fuel and ditching in the Channel - instances were surprisingly rare during the BoB. One JG 2 pilot had his engine seize over England and glided all the way home (cf. Mombeeck, 'In the skies of France')

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Now there's a "Myth of the Battle of Britain"! Whole Gruppen ditching etc.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Taking off in the 109 was relatively easy. If one watches videos, it can be seen the track was curved. Now landing was another matter. Again the 109 was relatively easy to land, some say docile, but the problem was when the wheels touched the ground due to the toe out of the wheels.

Over at the Allabloutwarfar board someone did a study comparing the Fw190 and the 109, iirc with JG26, and a/c accidents. What was surprising was the Fw190 had worse stats than the 109.

Btw, the Spitfire had a narrower track than that of the 109.