Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi,

How many victories claimed both Wirlwind Squadrons in 1940-43 period ? The number certainly is not so high however I would like to know number of destroyed, prob. destroyed and damaged enemies because of new article in preparation.

Regards,
Michal
Revi magazine

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Michal. I can give you the answer for 263 Sqn. Up to 8 Sep 42, I have a photo of their scoreboard. Then up to 15 Jun 43, 3 FW 190s damaged (which was optimistic having interviewed one of the FW 190 pilots they claimed). For the period to 29 Nov 43, 263 was officially credited with 39 dest, 21 dam/prob which includes their Norway time. I also have quite a collection of 263 Sqn photos if you are interested

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hello Fairlop!
This is a very interesting thread. There are few histories and articles ( as far as I do know, on my limited range of knowledge and access ) about the Whirlwinds. Please INFORM us where we could reand and find your article as soon as you got it published.
Sincerely yours
Adriano

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Adriano
are you aware on Bingham's book on Whirlwind.

Juha

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

I wasn't Juha. What's the title?

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Victor Bingham
WHIRLWIND
The Westland Whirlwind Fighter
Airlife 1987
ISBN 1 85310 004 8

Old but very good. My recommendation is if you find one, buy it

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi
That would take quite a few years of research to complete the list.
137/263 ORB to start, then reference with the luftwaffe losses.
I look forward to the article...

or are you just purely after figures and type ?
claimed or actual ?
for example

1 DO 217 damaged
1 JU-88 destroyed

Pm me if you wish

Cheers
Jerry

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

JUHA,

Thanks for the information about the book! I will certainly try to find one out! May you have a nice week!
Yours
Adriano

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Adriano
there are at least following articles on the fighter

Air International March 1995 pp. 157-164
Air Enthusiast July 1973 pp. 30 - 39
Aeroplane Monthly January 1985 pp. 8 - 12
Aeroplane Monthly February 1985 pp. 60 - 64.

IIRC all were OK

Juha

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi all,

Thank you for your comments. I have spent some time with a counting of the claimed victories and it should be ± :
7-0-6 plus 11-0-15 G for the 263 Sqn in 1941-43
and
1-1-6 for the 137 Sqn in 1942-43.
There is a possibility of my further questions to Whirlwinds in near future, so I will welcome your comments again.
Chris - PM sent.

Regards,
Michal

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi
thanks for clearing it up for me ( claimed )

maybe a homer simpson moment for me,
but is :-


137Sq
1-1-6,
1 damaged, 1 probable, 6 destroyed,
or 1 destroyed, 1 damaged , 6 damaged

i.e for 137Sq I have:-

1 probable
3 damaged
4 shot down
1 raf blenheim shot down.

cheers
jerry

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...LWIND&x=67&y=5

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Thanks Juha. there are quite a few out there available on the net - as a quick search on AddALL books showed.

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi Colleagues.

Dont bother at all with Binghams Book, it is a novel, and nothing in it is worth anything at all.

Cheers

Russell

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Ops
Re Bingham, it is a good book, the one I was thinking of was the novel published by William Kimber. Apologies to all.

Russell

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi guys

I have these claims noted for 263 Squadron:

12/1/41: P/O D Stein Ju88 probable
8/2/41: F/O JG Hughes & P/O KAG Graham Ar196 destroyed
1/3/41: P/O PG Thornton-Brown Ju88 damaged
5/3/41: P/O HH Kitchener DFM Ju88 damaged
11/3/41: P/O HH Kitchener DFM Ju88 damaged
1/4/41: S/L AH Donaldson & F/L DAC Crooks Do17 damaged
6/4/41: F/O B Howe & P/O JA Tooth He111 damaged
6/8/41: P/O CP Rudland Bf109 destroyed (plus Ju87 on ground)
F/Sgt Brackley Bf109
S/L AH Donaldson Bf109 damaged (plus Ju87 on ground, plus several Ju87s/Bf109s damaged on ground)
4/9/41: F/O D Stein Bf109 probable
29/9/41 W/C AH Donaldson Bf109 damaged on ground
S/L TP Pugh Bf109 damaged on ground
7/11/41: Sgt CP King Bf109 destroyed

4 destroyed, 2 probables, 6 damaged in air combat (plus 2 on ground & several damaged)

Hope this helps.
Cheers
Brian

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the comprehensive list of victories. Much appreciated !

It is upgraded „damaged“ to „probable“ after HQ verification ?


I have to buy new glasses when I glanced over.


No record ?


He should have to claim two Bf 109E destroyed.


Again no records for such massive ground victories ?


Gah my glasses ...


No mention in Aces High.


Correct.


I look forward to your comments.
Michal

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi Jerry,

My list:
15/05/42 0-0-1
20/06/42 0-0-1
06/07/42 0-0-1
25/07/42 1-0-0
29/07/42 1-0-0
18/08/42 0-0-1
19/08/42 1-0-1
15/12/42 0-0-1
19/12/42 0-1-0
15/06/43 0-0-1

Total 3-1-7

Michal

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi,

Just to add to the confusion. According to the 263 Sqn ORB summary for 1941 P/O Stein's probable Ju88 was upgraded to destroyed to make this the first victory for the squadron's Whirlwinds. Steins combat reported states that the Ju88 was initially claimed as damaged. So you have three posibilities for this Ju88, damaged/probable/destroyed.

Can the Ju88 be matched up with any that were in the area at the time?

On 5th August Sqn Ldr Donaldson and Sgt Holmes, both from 263 Sqn, attacked Maupertus airfiedl. Here they claimed 1 Ju87 destroyed with two more and two Bf109s damaged. The next day the squadron returned to Maupertus. Plt Off C P Rudland claimed one Ju87 destroyed on the ground and one Bf109 that was on its take off run. Two Ju87s were claimed destroyed on the ground, while two more plus 2 Bf109s were claimed as damaged.

The ORB mentioned that the Ju87s were lined up in a row and "may have been decoys".

During a later mission Rudland claimed another Bf109 as did Sgt Brackley. Sqn Ldr Donaldson claimed a third as damaged.

On 26th August 263 Sqn attacked Lannion airfield and claimed 5 Ju88s destroyed on the ground. From a search on the 'net I found a previous discussion thread which stated actuall losses were 1 Do217E destroyed with 1 Do17M and 3 Ju88A-5s as damaged. Spitfires from 66 Squadron were escorting the Whirlwinds and also fired on the aircraft.

So apart from the Lannion airfield claims, which have been identified can any other claims be matched to Luftwaffe losses?

Alex

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi Michal

false start - anyway here is a list of 137 Squadron's claims when operating Whirwinds that I compiled some years ago - amendments and corrections welcomed.

15.05.42 - F/Sgt G.V.Brennan & P/O Brunet - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

25.05.42 - F/Sgt G.V.Brennan & P/O LaGette - Ju.88 N.Sea
(actually a RAF Blenheim)

20.06.42 - P/O C.Mercer & Sgt Ashton - Do.217 (Dam) N.Sea

06.07.42 - P/O Bartlett & Sgt Roberts - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

25.07.42 - P/O J.E.McClure & W/O R.L.Smith - Ju.88 N.Sea

29.07.42 - F/Sgt J.R.Rebbetoy & Sgt L.O'Neill - Ju.88D-1 N.Sea
(F6+EL) of 3(F)/122 W.Nr.1515

18.08.42 - P/O J.Luing & Sgt L.O'Neill - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

19.08.42 - F/Lt Van Schaick & Sgt Brown - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

F/O J.M.Bryan & Sgt Roberts - Do.217 N.Sea

20.08.42 - F/Lt Bartlett & P/O Barclay - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

15.12.42 - P/O R.L.Smith - Fw.190 (Dam) Pegwell Bay

19.12.42 - F/Lt J.M.Bryan & P/O J.R.Rebbetoy - Fw.190

I also have Fw.190 destroyed by F/O B.L.Musgrove on 28 Jan 1943 but
I think this must be a mistake on my part.

Hope this is of use

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi
Not a mistake,
Musgrave shot down, FW190A-4, Black 2, 8/JG26,Uffz H.Walter killed.

If I get time tonight I will check my files, for the other dates,
from memory, Baker got a HE-III 14 aug 43 off channel islands.

Cheers
Jerry

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi,

Many thanks to all for your comments !
Is it possible to add serial numbers of the Whirlwinds to the lists of victories ?
Jerry, yes, Baker got one Ju88 N Guernsey in P7113. Thanks.

Regards,
Michal

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi Michal,

I believe that Bingham's book does give the serial numbers for all the scoring Whirlwinds.
Thanks for the confirmation of Musgrave's victory ( I see now I got it originally from Caldwell's book on JG.26)

The final claims for 137 Sq to add to my list are:-

19.05.43 P/O Ashton e/a (Dam) Poix A/F

15.06.43 S/Ldr J.Wray Fw.190 (Dam) Nr Cayeaux

Baker was C/O of 263 Squadron

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Bruce,

I do have Wray´s entry but not for Ashton. Was it gound victory ?
Could you or anyone else who has the Bingham´s book support me with copy of the victories ?

Michal

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi
Ashton, the enemy aircraft was in the process of taking off, he attacked it with cannon and bombed the flarepath.

Any ideas which unit that bakers JU88 came from ?

25th may 43 was a possible,
137Sq McClure and Woodhouse were attacked by 190's, woodhouse climbed to cloud cover, McClure unable to follow , turned into a head on attack with one of the 190's, even tho' he had no ammo left....
the 190 stalled and dived to earth at 500', McClure then made cloud cover.
cheers
Jerry

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi
Additons as requested.

15.05.42 - F/Sgt G.V.Brennan P7111 & P/O Brunet P7055 (SF-W) - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

25.05.42 -
I have this a 27th (but it might be my error )

F/Sgt G.V.Brennan P7122 & P/O LaGette P7046 - Ju.88 N.Sea (actually a RAF Blenheim)

20.06.42 - P/O C.Mercer P6972 & Sgt Ashton P7012 ( SF-V)- Do.217 (Dam) N.Sea

06.07.42 - P/O Bartlett P7111 & Sgt Roberts P7037 - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

25.07.42 - P/O J.E.McClure P7104 & W/O R.L.Smith P7012 (SF-V ) - Ju.88 3(F)./122 N.Sea

29.07.42 - F/Sgt J.R.Rebbetoy P7058 (SF-G) & Sgt L.O'Neill P7005 (SF-H) - Ju.88D-1 N.Sea
(F6+EL) of 3(F)/122 W.Nr.1515

18.08.42 - P/O J.Luing P7055 (SF-W) & Sgt L.O'Neill P7037 - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

19.08.42 - F/Lt Van Schaick P7014 & Sgt Brown P6976 - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

F/O J.M.Bryan P7046 & Sgt Roberts P7121 (SF-C) - Do.217 5/KG40 N.Sea

20.08.42 - F/Lt Bartlett P6993 (SF-A) & P/O Barclay P6982 (SF-S) - Ju.88 (Dam) N.Sea

15.12.42 - P/O R.L.Smith P6976 - Fw.190 (Dam) Pegwell Bay

19.12.42 - F/Lt J.M.Bryan P7114 & P/O J.R.Rebbetoy P7005 (SF-H) - Fw.190

19.05.43 P/O Ashton P7098 (SF-P) e/a (Dam) Poix A/F

15.06.43 S/Ldr J.Wray P7111 Fw.190 (Dam) Nr Cayeaux

I welcome any additions / corrections to the serials or codes or extra info/details on the luftwaffe a/c.

details from bingham's book/ORB/photos,etc.

It seems to be that from results,
137SQ were more succesful during their shorter time with the whirlwind, as regards air combats.

I will try to sort out 263sq from my files.

Cheers
Jerry

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

This was the 27th May 1942 - The Blenheim was V5568 of 1401 Met Flight - Crew: F/O W. Marshall, F/S P. Thimblebee and F/S A. Groves - all were killed 27.04.42 (confirmed CWGC website). The assumption is that Brennan realised his mistake, then broke away and headed for the Dutch coast. There he commenced strafing until his aircraft was shot down by flak and crashed at Velsen. He is also listed killed 27.04.42 (confirmed CWGC website).

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

25.07.42 - P/O J. E. McClure P7104 & W/O R. L. Smith P7012 (SF-V ) - Ju.88 3(F)./122 North Sea: -


(8H+KL , Wn5649) crashed near Smith's Knoll (a light buoy off Yarmouth).

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

20.06.42 - P/O C. Mercer P6972 & Sgt Ashton P7012 ( SF-V)- shot down an aircraft believed to be a Do.217 (Dam) North Sea of 3/KG2 which failed to make it home.

I had this down for 27.06.42.....

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi Michal,

just found the claims list for 263 Sqdn I did a while back :-

12.01.41 P/O Stein (P.6972) & Sgt Mason ((P.6968) - Ju.88 (Prob)

08.02.41 P/O Graham (P6969) - Ju.88

01.03.41 P/O Thornton Brown(P.6989) & P/OKitchener(P.6996)-Ju.88(Dam)

05.03.41 P/O Kitchener (P. ? )- Ju.88 (Dam)

01.04.41 S/Ldr Donaldson (P.6998)- Do215 (Dam)

06.04.41 P/O Howe (P.P.7002) & P/O Tooth(P.7004) - 2 He.111's (Dam)

08.04.41 P/O Ferdinand (P.6996) & Sgt King (P.6970) - Ju.88

06.08.41 Sgt Rudland (P.?) - Bf.109
S/Ldr Donaldson (P.?)- Bf.109 (Dam)
P/O Brackley (P.?) - Bf.109
Sgt Rudland (P.?) - Bf.109

04.09.41 P/O Stein (P.?) - Bf.109 (Dam)

07.11.41 Sgt King (P.7112) - Bf.109

14.12.42 F/Lt Coyne (P.7057) & Sgt Cotton (P.7052) - Fw.190 (Dam)

16.05.43 P/O Lee-White (P.7059) - Fw.190 (Dam)
F/Lt Coyne (P.7110) - Fw190 (Dam)

14.08.43 S/Ldr Baker (P.7113) - Ju.88

as before amendments/corrections welcomed

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

[quote=

12.01.41 P/O Stein P6972 & Sgt Mason P6968 ( HE-H)
- Ju.88 (Prob)

08.02.41 P/O Graham P6969 ( HE-V)
Not JU-88 it was an AR-196 from 5/KuFlGr 196

01.03.41 P/O Thornton Brown P6989 (HE-J) & P/OKitchener P6996-Ju.88(Dam)

05.03.41 Kitchener P6989 ( HE-J) JU-88 damaged

11.3.41 Kitchener P6985 JU-88 (HE-J) damaged

01.04.41 S/Ldr Donaldson P6998- Do215 (Dam)

there seems to be no twin fin a/c damaged only losses JU-88 & HE-III,
there was however RAF hampdens operating in the area one was ftr shot down off france

06.04.41 P/O Howe P7002 (HE-L) & P/O Tooth P7004 - 2 He.111's (Dam) KG27 ? they had two a/c damaged

08.04.41 P/O Ferdinand P6996 & Sgt King P6970 - Ju.88 KG54?

14.08.43 S/Ldr Baker P7113 - Ju.88
if this is a JU-88 and not a HE-III as claimed
is the JU-88 from KG26 ?
( can't find my notes with P7113 code)

[/quote]

Hi
Will update more later bit busy today.
cheers
Jerry

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Paul
The ORB has this definitely on the 20th at about 2200 30-40m East of Yarmouth. Mercer claimed 3 or 4 cannon strikes on the Do217

There was an inconclusive combat at 2140 on the 27th between Brunet and Musgrave and a Ju88 100 miles East of Yarmouth. Both pilots fired short bursts at extreme range and neither claimed to have done any damage.

Niall

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Niall

Thanks - That probably explains the confusion!

Paul

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hello again Adriano,
I forgot one article on Whirlwind which you may well be aware but just in case. Typically the latest!

Aeroplane Monthly May 2006 pp 58-75.

Juha

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Some additional information to this discussion………

I suspect B.L. Musgrave/Musgrove was actually F/O Edward Lancelot Musgrave DFC (RAAF – 403528). He was with 137 Sqn from Jan 1942 until his death on 18th May 43. Musgrave has generally been linked to Whirlwind - P7012, SF-P “Comrades in Arms”. Can anyone confirm whether he was flying this aircraft for his Fw 190 claim on 28th Jan 43?

The Sgt Cotton of 263 Sqn with shared damage claim of 14th Dec 42 was Sgt Maxwell Tylney Cotton DFC (RAAF – 408204) who was killed 15th Jun 43.

Another Whirlwind publication worth sourcing is Westland Whirlwind described by Bruce Robertson (Technical Manual Series 1, No.4) published by Kookaburra Technical Publications – 1970. Although dated and probably difficult to find it is a concise (only 25 pgs) overview of Whirlwind operations with a/c listing, b & w photos and a few colour profiles.

regards, Drew H

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Gents,

thanks again for your detailed and comprehensive work.

Regards from sunny Czech republic,
Michal

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Hi

Musgrave was flying P.7058 on 28.01.43 - look forward to seeing the book when it comes out

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

Thanks Bruce for the serial of Musgrave's Whirlwind.

regards, Drew H

Re: Whirlwinds victories
 

I thought Comrades in Arms” was P7102 not P7012