Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Hello,

A while back I posted my "wants" lists for some of the Zerstörer Groups during the FC. I now have the complete info for I./ZG52 from the Weiss Victory List file, and it appears that I./ZG 52 was credited with 19 victories during the FC. Of these only four are accounted for to Lts. Hans Schmid (2), Grasser (3 St) and Hoffman of 1 Staffel on 10.5.40, 11.5.40. 12.5.40 and 25.4.40. Another victory claim by Grasser of 3 Staffel is listed but with no info on date, time, place or type. An unknown pilot (Staffel uknown) was apparently credited with a victory over a Potez63 on 17.5.40. Lt. Hans Schmid, Staffel unknown, is believed to have scored additional victories but no details are recorded. Lt. Willi Elstermann of 3 Staffel scored an unknown number of victories with details unknown.

That leaves a great deal of unknown info for I./ZG52 (which became II./ZG2 just before the Battle of Britain). That unit apparently claimed another 43 or 44 victories during the Battle of Britain, but that's for another post. The dates and types for almost all of these are listed but very few pilots are recorded.

So, who has any info that would help flesh out the FC victory claims for I./ZG52?

Thanx,

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Hi Larry,

the downed Potez could be No.151 from the GRI/36, which emergency-landed damaged after combat with Bf110.

Regards

Robert

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Larry,

the victories of Lt. Willy Elstermann;

10.05.1940, 2./ZG 52, Morane (1.)
08.08.1940, 5./ZG 2, Blenheim (2.)
07.09.1940, 5./ZG 2, Spitfire (3.)

cheers,

John

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Hmmm.

Saw a memo in Freiburg mentioning the top scorers in France, and one of them was a ZG 52 chap and the number of victories he was credited with...

No I just have to remember which file.... as this is not my main field of interest I didn't write it down

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Hi Larry: Do you have Lt. Werner Hoffmann,I/ZG-52, and later prominent nightfighter. Claimed a Spitfire and a Hurricane between Dunkirk and Calais on May 24th. It appears only the Spitfire was a confirmed Vic. Sorry, Don't have a time.Info from David Williams "Night Fighters" Cheers Dean.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Hello,

Thanks for your comments and info. John, your info on Elstermann adds to the Bf110 data base available to me. Would you please provide a source for this info? Andreas, if you could remember the reference file on the FC top scorers that would be very helpful. This is definitely the kind of data that I'm looking for. Dean thanks for your input. I'll add that to my list.

Further material on this subject continues to be welcomed.

Regards,

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Larry,

Log book of Willy Elstermann in my possession.

Cheers,

John.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Hi John,

could you give us the details (times and places) of Elstermann victories?

Regards

Robert

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Also John, could you give any clues to Elstermann's a/c codes during this period. Did he have his regular mount!

Steve.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Gentlemen,

from the logbook;

10.05.1940 Lt. Elstermann/Uffz. Adling, Bf 110, A2+AK, Neuhausen, Start 15.47 Uhr, Landung 17.19 Uhr. „Luftsieg (Morane)“.

08.08.1940 Lt. Elstermann/Uffz. Adling, Bf 110, A2+NK, St.Aubin, Start 16.05 Uhr, Landung 17.50 Uhr. „Bristol Blenheim abgeschossen.“

07.09.1940 Lt. Elstermann/Uffz. Adling, Bf 110, A2+NK, Bois Jean, Start 16.55 Uhr, Landung 19.00 Uhr. „Spitfire abgeschossen, 57 Treffer.“

That is all the info in the logbook. And, no there doesn't seem to have been regular mounts.

regards,

John Manrho.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

hello,

LT Willy Elstermann,is'it the same pilot that the gruppenkom. of the II/JG 6 in 1944? and if yes what is carreer with zerstorer

thanks to all

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

You will read about that in detail in our book on JG 6, hopefully ready by 2009.

Cheers,

John manrho.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Good morning John,
Many thanks for the information on the aircraft flown by Elstermann, and locations of victories. This is most helpful. It would appear as others have already mentioned, that there is a glut of victories not yet documented, or possibly the records have become lost, since the end of the war!

Lets hope through sites like this, and renewed interest in this aspect of the 2nd w.war, much precious information can be found once again!

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Hi John,

thanks for claim`s details.:wave:

Regards

Robert

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

hello,

Larry,among pilots with vict.of I/ZG 52,have you Maj.Wilehlm Lessmann(seven vic.with zerstorer:two in 1939 with JGr.152 and five in 1940 with ZG 52) who relinquished command of I/ZG 52 to Maj.Harry Carl (26/06/40) and moving to stab/JG 52.

ATTENTION:not confuse with Haupt.Karl-Heinz Lessmann of I/JG 52(like for exampl.the book of john vasco)

sorry I have'not informations of dates,locations.... of vict.but perhaps somebody on the net.

regards

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

John,

Your posting on Elstermann seems to indicate that these were his first three claims. Other sources show him claiming a Curtiss on 24.09.39 and possibly a Potez on 6.10.39 (Shores et al. "Fledgling Eagles"). These were made while the unit was equipped with the Bf 109D. Do you have any info from the log book on these claims, including tactical numbers on Elstermann's planes?

Thanks,

Tom

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Tom

it's not the same Elstermann:his name is HORST ELSTERMANN for vict. in 1939(source:book of jochen prien)

focusfocus

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Indeed, Prien list that guy as Lt. Horst Elstermann. In my opinion no relation to Lt. Willy Elstermann. These claims of 1939 are not mentioned in Willy Elsterman's logbook and he did also not fly on 6.10.1939.

regards,

John.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

John & Focusfocus,

Thanks for your responses. There seems to be some confusion in both the Prien and Shores books between Horst and Willi. John, since you have Willi Elstermann's log book your comment seems rather definative. Can you tell me when Willi began flying with I./ZG 52?

Shores et al. in Fledgling Eagles refers to "Horst" in the text and index but "Willi" in the appendix. While Prien et al. in Die Jagdfliegerverbände ... refers to "Willi" in the Abschuß list and "Horst" in the loss list! Rather a coincidence having two Lt. Elstermann's in the same unit.

Tom

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Hello John,

Momentarilly very occupied with our recent born twins, regretfully I am not a frequent visitor of this forum anymore. But the name Elstermann catched my attention!

Could you please check whether Willy Elstermann was with the I.NJG 1 ? From the Dr.Siecke collection I have a picture of him (and 1-2 other guys) but I do have serious doubts, whether Elstermann had a brief career in the I.NJG 1: so far I haven't come across his name on Einsatzbefehle, Tagebücher, Weihnachtszeitungen of the I.NJG 1...

As always many thanks in advance! Marcel Hogenhuis / Venlo

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

I have a couple of claims for Elstermann from NJG 3 in 42 & 43.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Tom,

the logbook starts on 9.9.1939 and Elstermann was already with 2./ZG 52.

Marcel,

in my opinion he was not with I./NJG 1. However, from 2.11.1941-11.1.1942 he was at Venlo, maybe learning the trade? Can you send me a scan of that picture, curious if it is indeed our man....

cheers,

John.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

According to Werner Hoffmann, when he returned to flying duties after having been shot down on 19 Jun 40, he was posted to Obstlt Vollbracht's Erg-Zerstoerergruppe at Vaerlose where he met Willy Elstermann

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Chris,

true, from 10.10.1940 onwards Elstermann was in Vaerlose.

cheers,

John.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

John,

Again, thanks.

Tom

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

I would like to thank you for the very interesting info you got there! :)

The Virtual I/ZG52 is active since 14-Semptember-2004 and ever since i've been searching the internet for all kind of info...

I've gathered a nice bunch of ZG52 historic pictures in this link : http://www.zg52.com/historic_zg52_2.htm

So... if i was to copy the data you have here with your credit which is the final corect list of claims?

ThankS!

Ps. I would love it for any further info concerning the white Dragons.

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

And spring-summer1941 he was Staffelkapitän der 3/ErgZGr!

Junker

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Hi!

Gaga - its =KAG=Bersrk speaking :)

I have only this list:

I./ZG 52
Stab I./ ZG 52

1./ZG 52

2./ZG 52

3./ZG 52
08.09.39 n.n. 3./JGr. 152 Potez 63  W. Landau - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. II - 1
16.09.39 Ltn. Hartmann Grasser: 1 3./JGr. 152 Fesselballon  - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. II - 2
24.09.39 Oblt. Werner Schnoor: 1 3./JGr. 152 Morane  S. Saarbrücken - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. II - 5
24.09.39 Ltn. Kurt Rosenkranz: 1 3./JGr. 152 Morane  S. Saarbrücken - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. II - 6
24.09.39 Ltn. Kurt Rosenkranz: 2 3./JGr. 152 Morane  S. Saarbrücken - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. II - 7
24.09.39 n.n. 3./JGr. 152 Morane  S. Saarbrücken - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. II - 8
24.09.39 n.n. 3./JGr. 152 Morane  S. Saarbrücken - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. II - 9

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Dearest Eugene,

it took me a while to visit this forum i've been a bit busy with my new born son :).

Thank you imensly for your info !!! I will update ZG52's Site ASAP!!! :)

All the best and a Happy new Year!! (2010)

Re: Victory Lists for I./ZG52 during the French Campaign
 

Larry,

add these two vic's to your I./ZG 52 list

1. Curtiss
2. Spitfire

between 10.05.1940-04.06.1940 for Oblt. Herwarth Ziebarth of Stab I./ZG 52.

Cheers,

John