Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Does anyone have a record of Circus, Ramrod, Rhubarb & Fighter Sweep missions flown by Fighter Command in July 1941 so that I can discover if any of them were carried out over the Cherbourg area at that time.

Does anyone have a detailed list of these types of ops for other periods should anyone else need to look up a particular date and year?

Thanks in advance

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Hi Larry ,
Perhaps this little bit can help you about Circus ops flown in july 1941 :

Circus 29 on 02/07
30 on 03/07
32 on 04/07
33 on 05/07
35 on 06/07
37 on 07/07
39-40 on 08/07
41 on 09/07
42 on 10/07
48 on 14/07
54 on 21/07
59-90 on 23/07
61 on 24/07

Greets

Alain

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Hi

John Foreman's "Fighter Command War Diaries - Vol 2" details these ops

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Not much help - except in reverse?

Sweeps on 6/7 (Tuck leading), 8/7 & 23/7 were all over Le Touquet, Lille, St Omer, Gravelines & Berck-sur-Mer.
= Tim

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

PS - It may be inconsequential, but I notice that even in 1943 we did not go as far as Cherbourg. Thank God!! = Tim

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

To Cherbourg in July 1941:

10-7-41: Gudgeon I - Dock yards Cherbourg - 12 x Blenheim IV (16 Group-Coastal Command) escorted by 12 Spitfires of 501 Sqn, 15 Spitfires of 234 Sqn. 12 more Spitfires of 610, 611 and/or 616 Sqn also participated?
2 Spits of 234 Sqn lost (P8015 S/Ldr Blake-ASR and P8137 Sgt Pearce-KIA) - sdb Me109s off Cherbourg.
S/Ldr Blake himself claimed 2 Me-109s before being shot down himself.

14-7-41: Gudgeon III - Tanker off Cherbourg - 6 x Blenheim IV escorted by 10 Spitfires of 234 Sqn and 12 Spitfires of 501 Sqn.
2 Me-109s claimed by 234 Sqn (S/L Mortimer-Rose and P/O Wootton). No RAF losses.

24-7-41. Operation Sunrise. Major RAF attack on Brest Naval Base.
Diversionary attack on Cherbourg by 1 (?) Blenheim of No. 2 Group, escorted by 12 Spitfires of 485 Sqn (P7831 lost, Sgt Maney KIA) and 12 Spitfires of 452 Sqn.
Two Me-109s claimed in Cherbourg area (1x 485 Sqn/F/O E. Wells, 1 x 452 Sqn/ F/O A. Humphrey)

Regards,

Leendert
Brugge/Belgium

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

By we, of course, I meant our squadron - not the RAF as a whole.

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Tim, what squadron do you mean?

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

601 Hurricanes in 1941, 197 Typhoons in 1943.

= best wishes, Tim

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Hi Tim,
Hope you don't mind a couple of questions

Were you at Exeter with 601Sq ?

Were you on the 197Sq op from harrowbeer ?

Cheers
Jerry

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Thanks. A little bit of thinking and the answer is Manston. The obvious question that comes to my mind is what was the battle formation the 601 flew back in 1941? I believe this varied significantly between squadrons or wings?

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Wish I could make your day - but no!!

= Tim

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Franek - you're pushing it a bit!

On Sweeps, so far as I recall, we were still in vic formation. On shipping strikes etc, we would go out in pairs.

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Tim
Well, that was my conclusion after checking several diagrams and discussing the issue with Doug Tidy as well as some researchers. I know for sure that for example 306 Polish Squadron flew several interrim battle formations in the first half of 1941, including such a weird thing as a vic of pairs with a pair behind and above, this flown for convoy patrols. As far as I know, most popular battle formations during the Battle of Britain were line astern with green section of weavers and vic formation with yellow section of weavers. Unfortunatelly, I was unable to verify if distance between aircraft varied and when a weaving section was cancelled. I know that in 1942 a formation of sections flying line astern stepped down each was quite popular in Fighter Command but then I am not sure when a finger four formation was finally introduced as a standard.
For me it is a terrible mess!

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Don't talk to me about weavers - twice in 2 days (1940) I was top weaver & lost the squadron. Careless?

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Dear Tim,

Did you fly Airacobras with the 601 Sqn ?

Regards,
Michal

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Nope. Polish airmen always described the most common line astern formation with weavers as idiotic and useless to say the least. Apart of that, sending an unexperienced airman (I assume you still was, being few months on the squadron) for this position was indeed carelessness of the commander and command but not yours. It is obvious that young pilots have had enough problems with keeping in the formation, and giving them additional task of weaving and watching back was just senseless if not dangerous. You have survived to fight another day, and that is most important, especially as I guess you had about 300 hrs total flying time.

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Michal - no. Franek - not far off - 225.

But, actually, I prided myself on my station keeping. A lot better than my marksmanship.
It was only when there was a communiations loss, & the Squadron rushed off in the other direction, that I became stranded. Amazing how, in a flash, the sky is empty!!

What still makes me squirm with embarassment is the fact that I had to take people like Kut, Jicha, Prihoda & the like for formation practice. Dear God, what next?? = Tim

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

225 hours?! That is dramatically low, especially comparing to later 600 hrs training. I also note, what has been noted before, that too much faith was put on a radio communication and that in general British pilots were untrained with making visual contact and observations. I guess that the lot you had to learn flying formation had a much higher flying time, and that they have learned to keep visual contact with the formation all the time. Otherwise I bet they switched off r/t, as nobody would understand an excited Briton over a HF set then in use, especially speaking essentially no English.
How about your training at the OTU? I suppose you had some 40 hrs, but would they learn you anything but some Hurricane flying? My question, because later in the year RAF switched for operational training in resting squadrons, where experience was more up to date.

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Sorry about diluting this thread, but I should reply to questions.

• Radio. Can’t think how we coped with the old HF radio & the archaic Are you receiving me? are you receiving me? routine. Actually, all signals in formation were given by hand. Strange – I don’t recall any of the Czechs being lost for words. Excited Briton? Never! I thought it was the Poles who were the excited ones? I have to recall here that my abiding memory of our Dispersal Hut was the smell of burning Perspex – the ‘boys’ were at their daily practice of making jewellery from broken canopies!!
• Hours? OTU? You’re joking? 170 on Tiger Moths, Hawker Harts & Hinds, 2 hours on a Miles Master & then the Hurricane – which was a Hind with the top wing taken off & a retractable undercarriage! First operational patrol 15 hours later. Very exciting but not very educative!
• Training. Not only did those like Karel Kuttelwascher have 5 times the experience, but also in combat!! I was about to question why he was not a ‘BofB pilot’, but found that my first patrol with him was in November.
• Visual Contact? Yes – a good thing. But, as I said, in the 10 seconds that you were searching the skies around you, the squadron had disappeared without you hearing any instruction. Be fair – for the 40 minutes before, I was doing an exemplary job!!

= Tim

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Well, I am more than eager to go on another thread, of course if you like to discuss those matters any further.
You should hear comments of Poles flying with RAF Squadrons! I suppose this is a simple foreign language illusion, as I experienced it discussing virtues of Norwegian and Polish language. I have claimed that Norwegian is very fast language for a Pole, while Norwegian claimed that it was actually Polish a faster language!
Anyway, in the early period it was common for Poles to switch off R/T as with their knowledge of English and quality of transmission it was more distracting than helpful for them.
Later in the war I think it was common to both Britons and Poles to complain about excited Americans, but I think it is another story.
Jewellery from Perspex? Never heard of it!
I am just looking at a copy of a log book of a Polish airman, who while at 6 OTU between 16 and 30 July 1940 did some 30 hours on Hurricanes flying several exercises. The fact is that apart of 14 hours on Tigers and Hector he had amassed some 2000 hours, so I believe his training should be shorter rather than longer. I have a copy of log book of another pilot, who indeed was posted to an operational Squadron in October 1940, but the unit was based in Northern England or Scotland I believe, and played a role of an OTU actually. So, your training indeed seems rather short to say the least!
Indeed, most of the Czechoslovak and Polish airmen had accumulated substantial flying time. For example, Stanisław Skalski, who had a meteoric career with 501 Sqn, during his training and 1 year peace time service with PAF has amassed 600 hrs plus some 26 hrs of combat flying during two weeks of Polish Campaign. I think it did the difference. And indeed most of the Czechoslovak and Polish airmen spend the Battle on training in British procedures and English language.
I am fair, the job was for the most experienced airmen and even they could make a mistake. Please note that such an experienced airman as Gabby Gabreski did not notice a Fw 190 just in front of him during his very first sortie on ETO. He needed some 20 hours of operational flying as a wingman to learn practical side of the trade.
I stand by my comments, in my opinion you was by then not experienced enough for such a position and it was also a clear irresponsibility of the commander not to keep care where his weaver is. You could well have been bounced by Messerschmitts and unable to send a warning by radio. What then?

Going back to Circusses, did you differentiate various wings by their formation? I mean if by seeing a formation you could say it is Duxford, Northolt or Hornchurch?
Also, do you remember P/O Ryszard Malczewski? He was posted to 601 in May 1941 you could have been just in time to celebrate his and Ogilvie's claim for a probable Ju 52.

All the best

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Radio, warning? Good point. And, of course, I did not know that I had no radio.

Other wings? Not to my knowledge, & we were never close enough to compare.

Malczewski? Of course! Look carefully - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...4/RAF2/601.jpg

And here are some of the boys -
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../RAF2/6012.jpg


SORRY - wrong way around, but I'm not changing them!









http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...4/RAF2/601.jpg

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Hi Timothy,

Thanks for sharing the scans of your log book/photos with us.

May I ask your surname and between what dates did you serve with 197 Sqn.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Does this answer?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...AF2/potted.jpg

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

It certainly does. Many thanks for the quick response.

Cheers

Andy Fletcher

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Excellent! Do you have a full caption for this photo?
Malczewski was the best pal of my friend's uncle, unfortunatelly he passed away over 20 years ago. I am curious if he was a memorable character?
PS I have just found a patrol report of 26 June 1941 - a Lysander escort. Would you like a copy?

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

From earlier - JU52? Tell me more.

Lysander escort? Yes please. Another rescue operation.

Caption? This is the best I can do. Can you fill in more?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../RAF2/6013.jpg

Apart from Malczewski (& Manak) our other 'tourists' were Himr, Maras, Mares, Drbolav & Michalek.

Personality? Regrettably, no. All of them were 'jolly good chums'! At 20, I wasn't much into assessing character.

= Tim

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

On 22 May about noon Ogilvie and Malczewski got a Ju 52 flying at 300 feet over France. They put some good bursts into it but did not notice its crash, probably due to weather. I suppose there were some pints in a local pub or in the officers' mess but I am not sure if you have been already posted there.
I will scan the report tomorrow. It does not provide too many details, not even note it was an ASR mission, but specifies names of the airmen involved. For me it was interesting that you have had a mix of Mk IIA, IIB and IIC Hurricanes at one time.
I am not sure, but I think the man between Manak and Ruston could be Jan Maras. I am not very good in face recognition though. Interestingly, if it is him, I do not note 'Poland' badges nor Polish pilots badge, and RAF wings are on the wrong side of thge chest. I will ask my Czech friends if they recognise any of theirs.
I rather mean some memorable stories or anecdotes. I bet there were plenty of various incidents involving those airmen.

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Hi,

What a nice photo !
The man between Chivers and Manak is one of several Czechs with the 601 Sqn in 1940-42 period, Frantisek Mares, later DFM.
I will check others.

Regards,
Michal

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Tim,

There were these Czechs with the Squadron, in your period:
P/O Rudolf Borovec
P/O Karel Drbohlav
F/L Jaroslav Himr
Sgt Josef Kohout
F/O Jiri Manak, later flew Typhoons too
Sgt Vladimir Michalek

It seems to be you remember mainly Manak from them. A reason ?

Michal

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Michal - thank you for that. Manak? Because one naturally fell into groups, as at school.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...RAF2/manak.jpg

(Sorry about Peter Brett's silly face!!)

And he flew as my No2 more often than any other. But Drbolav I flew with as well. Himr? A great chap!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../RAF2/himr.jpg

= Tim

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Tim
Here is the Patrol Report. I hope it is readable. If not, I can send you a better scan via email.
Do you remember the mission?

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Just great. Lucky we all got back to the same base since we went to different places. In my book it was 6m north of Dunkerque!!

Quite a long trip - 1hr 40min. There were 4 Spits with us, I note, & although we saw 4 Bf109s that were reported to us, they didn't give us any sport. Another fruitless sortie!

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Tim,

Have you got by chance pictures in your album which show some Hurricane of the 601 Sqn from port side as well as staboard please ?

Michal

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Regret no.

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Tim,

May I contact you off board because of Czechs please ? Or if you prefer send me an e-mail to fairlop AT quick.cz . Thank you.

Michal

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Done!

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Tim
Was there anything special with the sortie? I am just wondering why this particular document survived.
By the way, do you have any more photos of the period?
Also, could you compare all three marks of Hurricanes (A, B, C) that you have had on the Squadron? I mean your comment from a pilot's perspective, what did you like and what did you not.
Best wishes

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

1. No, Franek - another uneventful rescue sortie. The large escorts were always laid on, or so I believe, to tempt 'them' into an engagement, but again, I believe, 'they' soon realised this & failed to comply. This was a longish trip because a second Lysander (dingy dropper) had to come out to replace the first.

2. No. Except a view of the millpond at the back of the 'mess' we had while at Matlaske - Itteringham Mill - a wonderful requisitioned property. We could fish for Trout for breakfast standing on the 'balcony' at the back.

3. No! At least not between the A & B. The C with 4 Cannon was a nice change - especially since we were, at that time, involved in 'Jim Crow' shipping strikes. The big thiing about firing Cannon was to preempt the nose dropping by easing back on the 'stick'.

= Tim

Re: Circus, Ramrods, Rhubarbs & Sweeps July 1941
 

Thanks. Well, I am amazed you remember so many details.
Nice accommodation. Well, I hoped that you will show us some more gems, but I see that I have to live with it. By the way, would it be possible to provide me with a better, bigger scan of the group photo?
Never heard of nose dropping in Mk IIC, so it is a very valuable observation. I understand that any differencies due to different armament weight and its distribution were not noticeable. I assume the Hurricanes flown in Russia had lower performance and were somewhat lazy due to tropical filters and soviet fuel, were not they? It is also interesting if Mk II varied from Mk I, apart of performance increase. I think due to a lengthened nose centre of gravity moved, so it could affect handling a little.
Thanks again