II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Greetings: Nice to see the upsurge in interest in Zerstorer Operations on the Forum,Larry Hickey in particular. I share your interest. A couple of years ago I had made a post regarding II/ZG-1 in Switzerland,4.6.40 and 8.6.40. John Vasco kindly provided some info. at that time ,but I have managed to glean some more info regarding Luftwaffe "claims" since then.Alas..,I still have some Questions as well. If Anyone is interested I'll post what I have here. my Wife is harping at me at the moment so must go for now, Cheers Dean

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Hi Dean,

I have:

04.06.40 15-16.00 Boecourt Bf109D Fliegerkompanie 15 J-310 (probably downed by Uffz.Herbert Kutscha from the 5/ZG1)
On the 08.06.40 the Swiss lost C-125 from the Fliegerkompanie 1 CR-35 between 11-12.00, and later (between 12-13.00) Bf109D from FK15 J-328 and damaged Bf109D from FK21 flown by Olt.Borner. I know that the claims were made by Lt.Hermichen from the 6/ZG1, Olt.Kaldrack from 4/ZG1 and Lt.Tonne from the 6/ZG1 but I`m sure that there were some more claims.

Regards

Robert

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Dean,

Your information on the ZG units would be most appreciated.

Regards,

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Hello Again: This is what I have, perhaps a little different from Robert's. I have Kutschka's claim( his 5th) for a Bf-109 as being on 8.6.40,Source's Fiest:LW diary Vol.I,Luftw. in Focus 6/2004. Kaldrack,and Tonne(his 1st) for Bf-109's also on the 8.6.40. Ogfr. klinke's claim for a Bf-109(Bf of Fw. Dahne),again on 8.6.40. Hermichen's claim is a puzzle. Was he involved on the 8th,or the 4th? The EKW C-35 shot down on the 8th was apparently" Gang thumped" by a number of BF-110's... So a little bit of mystery yet. Anyone else claim on these dates that have not come up yet? ilook forward to anthing anyone can offer. Of course, we are talking "claims" here. Cheers Dean

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Hi Dean,

Tonne made his first claim on the 10.05.40 between 05-06.00 against dutch Douglas 8A from the 3 JAVA.

Regards

Robert

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Hi,

Regarding II./ZG 1 claims against the Swiss, the victory lists from the Weiss collection for II./ZG1 have claims of 4 x Bf109Es listed on 4.5.40, none with claimant or any details. One CR-32 is listed as victor "NN" on 8.6.40, and 4 x 109s on the same day, credited to Oblt. Rolf Kaldrack of 4 Staffel, and Oblt. Günther Tonne, Obfw Harras Matthes (5th victory) and Fw Herbert Kutscha (originally listed as NN, but crossed off and Kutscha hand-written in) of 6 Staffel. Handwritten at the bottom of the list is also listed "U (Uffz) Killermann + (Killed by Swiss 109) 4.6.40 - 6 Staffel - 1 (apparently Abschüsse).

Regarding the rest of II./ZG 1 victories, a total of 38 are listed duing May-June 1940, by date and type, with the locations listed for only the six on 10.5.40, all over Rotterdam. The pilots and their victory totals to date are listed for the rest, excepting: "NN" pilots for two Spitfires on 13.5.40, and one Potez 63 on 15.6.40. Unlike the listing for I./ZG 1, there is no confirmation status on any of the II./ZG 1 victory claims.

In addition, at the bottom of the list with no dates or types are listed: Lt Rolf Hermichen of 6 Staffel with 2 victories on unknown dates (plus 2 known, total 4), and Fw Johannes Lutter of 4 Staffel with 1 victory.

If this missing info can be found, the victory lists for I. and II./ZG 1 for the May-June Western Campaign will be complete.

However, at the end of the list for III./ZG76 (renamed from II./ZG1 after the Western Campaign), it indicates that through October 1940, this unit claimed 112 victories. A total of 33 are listed for III./ZG 76 by date and type from 11.7.40 through 11.9.40, only ten of which are attributed to specific pilots. This means that there may be substantially more claims submitted for the entire period, including the WC. The top scorers for the unit through Oct., 1940, were apparently: Fw Herbert Kutscha (11), Lt. Richard Marchfelder (10), Lt. Rolf Hermichen (9), Hptm. Rolf Kaldrack (8), Oblt Gerhard Kadow (6), Obfw Harras Matthes (6) and Fw Johannes Lutter (6).

I will let this stand with this post for a while, then move it to a new post for II./ZG1 victories during 1940.

Thanx,

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Robert and Larry: Thank you very much for responding to this thread.I seem to recall having written down somewhere that Hermichens 1st claim was on 10.5.40 over Holland,but I'm going to have to go through my stuff and see if I can find it. Based on the large number of German "claims" against the Swiss. Maybe at the time II/ZG1 had felt they had delivered Goring's Message,and had not taken the spanking from the Swiss that history has shown. Cheers Dean

Sidetrack on claims against Dutch Douglas 8A's
 

Does anyone have any additional information on the claims against the Douglas 8As? Or any other details of the Dutch operations with the Douglases?

Regards,
...geoff

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

I beleive this link (In German) will help a little:

http://www.kczum.ch/aviation/content_1940.htm

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Just few informations for Larry,

You wrote "Handwritten at the bottom of the list is also listed "U (Uffz) Killermann + (Killed by Swiss 109) 4.6.40 - 6 Staffel - 1 (apparently Abschüsse)." : Uffz Killerman's crew from6./ZG1 was downed near Morteau, east of France on june 04 1940. All crew KIA.

Perhaps this could helps.
Stephane

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Hi Evgeny; While reading the web page you posted, I noted reference to a Bf-110 of 5/ZG76 having forcelanded at Nunningen after a mission.This appears to have occurred on 8.6.40. If my German is correct, it appears the crew were interned. Does anyone have anything on this? I've checked John Vasco's book, as well as other published reference's and find no mention. Some of II/ZG1's aircrew were indeed interned after being shot down this date. Could this be as simple as a "Typo" in the article? I welcome any comments. Cheers. Dean.

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Gents, I have a question.

Does Luftwaffe pilots (especially II./ZG1) knew that Douglas 8A were DUTCH aircrafts, or thought them to be "British Corps" in France?

How does "abschuss" mark looked like? Dutch triangle or "british" roundels?

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

So gents, underline is:

4.6.40:

6./ZG1 lost 1 Bf110C, Uffz. Albert Killermann/Uffz. Gotfried Wohl both killed by Swiss Bf109D.
In return, II./ZG1 pilots shot down Bf109D (J-310) from Fliegerkompanie 15.

8.6.40:

Around 12:00 II./ZG1 pilots bounced C-35 of FK1 and shot it down.
Then, a hour later, II./ZG1 was attacked from above, and lost 4 Bf110:
Fw. Otto Beiter(KiA)/Ogefr. Robert Hink(WiA)
Uffz. Alois Scholz(KiA)/Ogefr. Walter Hofmann (KiA)
Fw. Manfred Dahne(WiA)/Ogefr. Herbert Klinke (WiA)
Oblt. Gerhard Kadow (StaKa)(WiA)/Uffz. Fritz Wonnicke (KiA)

In return, they shot down Bf109D (J-328 ) from FK15 and heavy damaged Bf109D from FK21, piloted by Oblt. Borner.

Does any SWISS pilots claims are known?

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Hi,

yes they are known.
According to FB from 5./ZG1 the mission lasted for two hours.

Regards

Robert

P.S. Some of Dutch DB-8A were claimed as Hurricanes.

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Ok, clear.

Robert - does that pilot flew missions later in 5./SKG210?

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

That was Oblt. Alfred Rufer from Fl. Kp. 15. (Bf 109 E-3a)
Lt. Rudolf Rickenbacher baled out from burning plane but parachute failed.
Swiss C-35 (No. C-125) crew, Lt. Rudolf Meul (pilot) and Oblt. Emilio Gürtler (observer) from Fl.Kp. 10 was lost.

Bf 109 E-3a (J-328) damaged (34 bullet holes, later repaired). Oblt. Rudolf Homberger from Fl.Kp. 15 badly injured (got 3 shots, hospitalized) made wheeled up landing at Biel airbase.
Bf 109 E-3a (J-364) damaged (aileron blocked) but Oblt. Armin Borner from Fl.Kp. 21 landed correctly at Olten airbase.
Bf 109 E-3a (J-329) damaged (27 bullet holes, later repaired). Hptm Werner Lindecker, the Fl.Kp. 15 commander, landed correctly.


Many claims and even more questions...

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Hi,

J-329 was not hit on 8.6.40. It had been damaged on 4.6.40.

Regards

Robert

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Right, the pilot on 4.6.40 was Oblt. Alfred Rufer acting as Fl.Kp. 15 commander during absence of Hptm Lindecker. The plane got few hits in the wing slats, propeller and cooler.

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Zdrastvitie Evgeny,

Bf 110 C, 4. /ZG 1, Fw. Otto Beiter(KiA)/Ogefr. Robert Hink(WiA), shot down by Oblt Kuhn, Fl Kp 15. Fw Beitner managed to nurse his stricken Bf 110 back over the French Jura mountains before losing control and crashing to his death at Sépois-les-Bas (F), his Bordfunker managing to escape at the last moment with his parachute.

Bf 110 C, 4. /ZG 1, Uffz. Alois Scholz(KiA)/Ogefr. Walter Hofmann (KiA), shot down by Oblt Streiff, Fl Kp 21, at Triengen, 12.55. Ogefr Hoffmann actually managed to jump out of the falling Bf 110, but his parachute opened to early and snagged itself in the tailplane, draging him thus to his death.

Bf 110 C, 6. /ZG 1, Oblt. Gerhard Kadow (StaKa)(WiA)/Uffz. Fritz Wonnicke (KiA) was shot down by Fl Kp 15 and crash landed in Morteau (F). Uffz Wonnicke died instantly during combat from a direct head shot.

Bf 110 C-1, W.Nr. 2831, 2N+GN, Fw. Manfred Dahne(WiA)/Ogefr. Herbert Klinke (WiA), shot down by Fl Kp 15 and Flab Det 80 (a 7,5 cm AA gun unit) and crash landed in Oberkirch/Nunningen.


Source: Hoch, (G.), Die Messerschmitt Me 109 in der schweizer Flugwaffe - ein Stück Zeitgeschichte - Verlag Hoch, Payerne, 1999, p. 108 - 113.

Cheers
Marc

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Thanks Marc :)

It would be wonderfull, if we will know all codes and WerkNummers of rest Bf110's.
I cant remember now (I have those links at home), but somewhere in Web I saw a page, with wonderfull close up photos of that 2N+GN after it was interned by Swiss.

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

I think the French magazine Avions issue 82 covered this, back copies can be ordered on line.

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

A very interesting story. I have read some years ago a book about both Allied and German aircraft that went to Switzerland during WWII. Always interesting facts. Thanks

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Evgeny,

No mentions in Karl Ries's book of other W.Nr's as well. I hope that Larry has them in his documentation.

Cheers
Marc

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

There were no further Werknummers on Avions No. 82

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Thanks Net sailor,

Larry, any chance to provide us with the missing W.Nr's and unit codes?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

According "The Battle of France Then and Now" Werknummer of this plane was: 2124. Other codes or W.Nr's are not given except well known Dähne's aircraft.


Evgeny, the photos of 2N+GN (W.Nr. 2831) in Swiss hands you can view here:
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/arc...bum/index.html

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Hi Robert, would you be willing to share with us the crew detail for this a/c.
Any codes or W.Nr listed?

Best regs,
Steve..

Re: II/ZG-1's Swiss Adventure.
 

Hi guys

Volume I of my Blue-on-Blue series is, hopefully, due out by Christmas.

In this volume I have covered the Swiss/Luftwaffe encounters in 1940 to the best of my knowledge. There may be something of interest.

Cheers
Brian