All-black captured Mustang?
 

Any truth in this?

http://www.brooksart.com/Tuskegeethunder.html

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

I suspect it is meant to be dark green, not black.

There is unlikely to be any truth in it.

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

canceled my post, as I didn't read the full text below the picture, and my answer had nothing to do with your question.

BTW: Never seen a all-black Mustangs!

Cheers, Simon

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Sky -
Summer of 1944 , My Dad spotted a " Black " Mustang flying East over Germany. He was ordered by Sq. Leader Tommy Hayes to investigate.
Weather was Dark , Rainy , Cloudy.
The Mustang evaded and ducked into clouds . He was then told to shoot him down. Dad got a few shots but lost him in Clouds and had to return as fuel was Low.
My Neighbor , Kelly Gross , 354th FG Ace , also encountered a " Black "
Mustang and chased him for awhile , It was a Dark , Rainy Day.
A 100th BG Crew also reported a " Black " Mustang approached them on a Mission but did not attack.
I showed them Pictures of German P - 51 T9 - CK , Painted Dark Green, and they agreed it could be it as They both encountered it in Dark Skies.
Dad - John C. Howell 357th FG , 364th Sq. P - 51 " SHOO SHOO BABY ".
Mike Howell

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Indeed, but encountering it over Germany is not the same thing as finding it shadowing the bomber formation.

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Thanks for the comments, guys.

Graham, Mike, indeed the Mustang would most likely have been dark green. The Luftwaffe's dark green colours were very often mistaken for black. To illustrate, I have a number of encounter reports from interceptions of Fw 200s and Bv 138s by FAA Wildcats (Martlets). FAA encounter reports have a field where the pilot can make comments on the enemy aircraft's camouflage and markings. Indeed many of them say their opponent had all-black camouflage.

Simon please post that link again! It wasn't terribly relevant, but it was very interesting nonetheless! :D

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

O nevermind Simon, I already found it with Google: http://www.af.mil/shared/media/docum...070207-059.pdf

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

While were on the topic of the Tuskegee airmen anyway, what's the story behind the claim for an Me 109 damaged on 9 June 1945? I assume this is a typo (1944), seeing as the aircraft flown was a P-47 as well as the date being post-war otherwise...
http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org/uploads/stats.pdf (right at the bottom of page 7)

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Note also that yellow nose reactor entrance for Me 262 never existed... Clear entrance on B&W photo means nude metal and not yellow as far as i know...

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

If I can add my humble opinion to this thread, I'd like to say that there is nothing more unreliable than eyewitness accounts during or after a dogfight or any aerial combat.

Adrenaline, fear, speed, need to scan all the sky to avoid the famous "enemy at 6 o'clock", all contributed to lots of completely wrong sightings, type IDs, or camouflage & markings notes...!

Even in combats where it has been possible to positively determine the protagonists and the developments of the facts, the original reports very often narrates completely wrong data, numbers and results.

Speaking of colors, many of us certainly recall the fantasious color description of Bf 109 and Fw190 camouflages (including the mythical "all yellow 190"...) in the otherwise wonderful "The Big Show" by Pierre Clostermann.

Thus, considering all this and the many accounts examined, I dare to say that to take a colour ID during a combat as a starting point is a very fragile base IMHO, or at least something that should be taken with a very huge pinch of salt.

Of course, this is only my point of view...

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Interesting- long time ago I have find info about captured Yugoslav airplane also painted black by Germans.

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Yes I remember. Green and ocre they were, with yellow bellies! :)
I have my own little theory for that one. When you look at a blue sky for a long time, everything else tends to get yellow. Add yellow to two tones of grey (RLM 74/75) and you might actually see something that's green with ocre and a yellow belly.

Here's a nice related optical illusion: http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/O...erception.html (choose Colour Perception)
Notice how "RLM 74" goes all ocre on your eyes when surrounded by "sky"! :D

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Pretty interesting optical illusions - the spinning spiral and back-of-the-hand is a weird one !

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Skyraider,
With regard to your question several posts back, about the June 9, 1945 entry for a damaged Me-109 for Robert Wiggins, this is indeed a typo, and it should be 1944.

I would also note elsewhere on that page, that at the top they show Lee Archer with 5 victories, and at the bottom with 4.5. His correct score is 4; the entry at the top for July 20, 1944 is incorrect. His Form 5 does not show a flight on this date, nor does the mission report for this date list a victory. The error comes from Francis' history of the Tuskeegee airmen, who misread a very unofficial list.

Frank.

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

I knew it must have been some form of optical illusion, but did not know that explanation is so simple! :D
If you could only expand it in a more scientific way, with some more samples of such illusions... :)

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

on the black mustang erm might be a captured yak.
as ive read in many books too many"" some Italian planes were seen over berlin re 2000--- re 2005. and some all black painted me 109s .
GARY.

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

As in my Previous Post-
My Father and Kelly Gross both are 100% Positive the " Black "
Fighter they encountered was a P - 51.
Mike

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Didn't the Finns claim some 'Russian' P-51s?

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

well thats something new for me that i never known amazing stuff.
well good read.
thanks GARY

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

on Russian p51ps not as i know of the RAF gave them 10 p51 A models.
thats a mystery for lease lend a book im reading now.
and 200 p47s.
GARY.

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

spot on they were for parisans missions there.
also some macchi 205s were used too.
Gary.

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

Sorry to contradict you, but the Croats only had a few Macchi C.202s in 1944, with a rather dark italian top camouflage of the type applied by Breda factory (they belonged to "serie XII").

No Macchi C.205 ever operated in Yugoslavia (apart from those of ANR's 1° Gruppo Caccia who flew over Istrian peninsula on a few high-altitude interceptions...)

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

YES.IM WRONG IT WAS SOME BOOK I READ 3 YEARS AGO.
YOURS GAZ.

Re: All-black captured Mustang?
 

”Didn't the Finns claim some 'Russian' P-51s?”

Hello!
Yes, IMHO classical case, pilots were warned that Soviet Union had got also Mustangs from West and they began see them. In reality Yak-9s. At least both had ventral radiator.

Juha