Another wreck of Bf110
 

Any data available?
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Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Hi,

Well, according to the Werknummer on ther armored plate this could be the remains of Bf 110E-2 WNr.3722 of 1./ZG26 which crashed due unknown reason on the 12. August 1941 near Lipowo. Pilot Uffz. Werner Hofmann was killed, the markings were 3U+JH (white J).

regards,
Tomislav

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Thanks!
The aircraft was found near rail station Chudovo. The shields show that plane was a Bf 110 C-2??? Is it possible that armor was replaced from crashed plane to another one?

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

My experience with sub-component/subassembly ID plates, like those shown here for the Bf 110, confirms that the model designation on a plate (e.g., C-1 or C-2) may sometimes not match the model designation of the host airplane (e.g., E-2). The reason for this is simple, certain standard parts were sometimes used/reused on various models without change to the (original) plate or plate entries. (Although, as shown here, the MIAG plate was updated, by restamping, from C-1 to C-2.) Given the many production, repair, and remanufacturing processes employed to produce and sustain large numbers of parts under deteriorating wartime circumstances, finding a part marked for one model on a different model comes as no surprise. Gotha and MIAG plates like these are both common on Bf/Me 110 airframe parts, but do not typically provide an airplane’s main W.Nr. The armor panel marked W.Nr. 3722 is a fortunate indicator of the likely origin of this wreckage. That said, yes, the armor also could have been used on another plane without having the W.Nr. revised.

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Suggest you look at the W. Nr. as being 3122, which is in the 'C-2' block of W. Nr.. Remember, the difference between the handwritten numbers '1' and '7' in German at that time (if not up to present) is that the '1' is written like a '7', and a '7' had a small horizontal line through it to denote the difference.

The overstamping of 'C-1' to 'C-2' would simply mean that the improved electronics/radio system was fitted (see Petrick/Mankau) during the production run.

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

It seems that there is a claim from 159 IAP for 110 shot down in that vicinity at that day...

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Hello all,

I've looked up the places on map and there seem to be a quite big distance between Chudovo (Novgorod region) and Lipowo (Ukraine). As the remains were found near a railway station, is it possible that these remains are from many different planes? Have you checked if there are other parts from other planes in the pile?
I'm not Bf 110 expert, so i can't really tell what the exact difference is between the C-2 and E-2 models is, and if parts from a C-2 can be used/reused on a E-2. Perahps someone knows more about this?

regards,
Tomislav

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Tomislav,

The biggest external difference between the 'C' series and the 'E' was that the 'E' had a rectangular inlet on the nose between the two central MG 17s.
'C' variants were retro-fitted with parts as early as 1940 - photos exist of 'C's with armoured windscreens,for example. Internal armour could have been retro-fitted.

I still suggest pursuing the line of a Bf 110 C-2 with the W. Nr. 3122.

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

John,

That is a very real possibility. Often (but not always), the written/hand-painted number "7" had a horizontal line or dash placed across the stem to distinguish it from a 1 with a "flagged" top. However, the number "1" was itself sometimes different in that the "flag" at top was longer and at a significant downward angle. To me, the second digit on the armor plate suggests a 7 more than a 1. I notice that the stem curves up and to the right and that the upper line is both short and horizontal.

I appreciate knowing what the C-1 to C-2 over-stamp denotes - I have several identically marked 110 plates.

r/Steve

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

OK, I think Tomislav has established beyond reasonable doubt that 3U+JH came down a considerable distance from where the remains of the Bf 110 which is the subject of this thread were found. Not the same aircraft.

Regarding the numerals '1' and '7', here's one example of what I am talking about. Handwritten correspondence from Balthasar Aretz, pilot of 2./Erpr. Gr. 210; III./ZG 26, and other units. Note how he writes the number '7'. This is just one of many examples I have in my research records.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2...tterda3.th.jpg

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Hi, guys.

In my opinion the WNr written on the armour plate is 3722 and not 3122.

As these remains were found near a railway station, I would rather speculate that these remains are dumped parts that were recovered but later decided not to be returned by rail when the rest of the wreckage from one or more aircraft wrecks were returned to the repair system.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Let's fly in the face of what's before our eyes. Never mind the fact that 3722 crashed in a completely different part of the Soviet Union. Never mind the fact that 3722 was an 'E-2' and the plate shows a 'C-2'. What do I know?

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

There also is a Lipovo near Leningrad...

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Andreas !

For me as an origin German who went to primary school from 1964 to 1968, is this digit in question a "7" without any doubts. We learned in school writing a "7" like this, but with dash in it. A "1" was always straight and not curved, like a "7".

Best regards,

Horst Weber

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

As a neighbour with similar writing habits I can confirm. This is definetelly 7, and it is common to write it both ways, with and without dash.

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Yes you are right, (I found another in Poland). I guess this Lipovo near Leningrad should be the right Lipovo. The base of I./ZG26 at that time was Sarudinye which is also in this region.
I think we solved this part of the mystery. What remains are the C-2 marked plates. I would like to point out the possibilty that these parts that were found might not all be from the same airplane. As Andreas already said, these parts my have been transported from a collecting site back to Germany, and Chudowo was perhaps just a station where such wrecks and parts were loaded on the train.

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

3122 was lost by IV.NJG1 training unit, nd didn't appear in the losses of 1941 or 1942

Rémi

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Thanks to one and all who entered this thread. The exchange of information and give & take of ideas and opinions is enjoyable to follow and rewarding to our mutual understanding of bits of history.

As to the C-1/C-2 plates and W.Nr. 3722 being a E-2, Bf 110 parts with plates marked for the ‘C’ models were also found on other models - this is what I think we’re seeing here. Also a possibility, as noted, this collection of parts may represent more than one airplane.

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

Hi

The only thing I can add is that Bf110 E-2 W.Nr4502 (CD+MV) coded M8+ZE of Stab/ZG76 and 6./(Z)/JG5 was recovered from Russia in 1992. On looking at the airframe in greater detail it was found the airframe was constructed on 3084, a C model.

We know a whole group in the 30xx, 31xx Bf110's were not completed and most likely upgraded and completed in a new batch of E models

3722 as an E could well have had been started as a C but completed as an E.

regards

MS

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

The exact location of the wreck was about 10-15 km off the Chudovo towards Verebje lake in the marsh... And it definitelly had crashed from the air. I think that perhaps AC underwent some repairs, and for example damaged tail section was replaced with available one - from C-2...

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

How do you know that?

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

If that's true, then what does the "Bf 110C-2" designation on the plate supposed to indicate?

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

For WNr. 3122 I have (like Remi):

Bf 110C-4, 3122, Danzer, Gefr. Kurt, , I., 3.(Erg), NJG 1, , G9+UW, SE+ZF, , 30-May-42, Crew killed in crash during training flight., , Lw.Bfh.Mitte/Nachtjagd, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.9; Balss, Deutsche Nachtjagd, p.49, Mankau/Petrick, Messerschmitt Bf 110, Me 210 & Me 410, p.324; Menke, Schwaikheim bei Winnenden (Württemburg), 100%, H, Bf Gefr. Gerhard Renkwitz, , Messerschmitt AG at Augsburg in Jan-40

Re: Another wreck of Bf110
 

I'm not THAT much of a Bf 110 expert, can someone please tell me where the ID plates would have been located on the airframe?